WEBVTT

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large ones in color. No talk just as Mozart and Phil And and uh and kites.

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 Okay, thank you. Mhm, mm hmm.

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I'm Ronald Gourlay. I'm an architect
from Tucson

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and I'm going to start this panel. We
don't have a chairman in each of the

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other. Panel members will just
introduce themselves.

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I'm not much of a word, man. Words
seemed to me pretty much after the fact

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or act and seldom adequate for
conveying the sense of a human life

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experience to others.

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The tent to further confusion. And in
today's world we certainly don't

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need any more of that.

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But I guess we have to use them in
order to have any form of communication

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with each other at all.

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And the words for today for this panel
are excellence and commitment.

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Excellence is the quality of being excellent.

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An excellent means very good of its
kind, eminently good or first class.

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And that doesn't tell us very much
commitment

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is defined as an agreement or pledged
to do something in the future,

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something pledged or the state of
being obligated rather than commitment.

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I would suggest dedication. Mhm. Self
sacrificing devotion,

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devotion, being the act of devoting or
quality of being devoted and in the

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verb form to center the attention or
activities of oneself, applying

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chiefly to personal activity and
suggesting motives as impelling as a

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vowel.

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So I prefer excellence and dedication
as the words these words are of a

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very general nature.

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one is a quality, the other is a human
characteristic or ability,

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but they are units of measure

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and therefore they need relating to
something specific.

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And I guess our task is to relate them
to art in the environment or to the

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environment itself. As an architect,
I'm very interested in the built

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environment.

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Environment means to surround the
environment, being surroundings

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or the complex of climatic

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and traffic and biotic factors that
act upon an organism or an ecological

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community and eventually determine its
form and survival.

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Plus the aggregate of social and
cultural conditions that influenced the

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life of an individual or community.

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Environment is a matter of measure

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and can be considered in many ways and
many scales

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we seek a context, We have options.
Environment can be considered natural

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or artificial, private or public a
quality or an entity, individual or

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group. Microcosm or macrocosm, random
were ordered, controlled or

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uncontrolled, static or dynamic,
timely or timeless, finite or infinite.

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Ad Infinitum.

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In today's world, astronomers and
astrophysicists concern is the red limit

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the edge of the universe. Coming now.
Within radio telescopic view, they

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discussed the creation as Big bang or
steady state.

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The world of the very large.

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In the words of Carl Sagan, they have
accumulated not speculation, but

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reasonably hard evidence on the extent
shape, age, contents and ultimate

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fate of the entire universe.

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Their interest is in the largest unit
of measure.

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Well listening to the stimulating
opening discussions today, I couldn't

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help but ask myself whether the person
speaking was Big Bang or steady

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state

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because all of us are certainly a part
of that.

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Other physicists are concerned with
atomic study and quantum mechanics,

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infinitesimal particles and energies.
The world of the very small.

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Their interest is in the smallest unit
of measure

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geologists. Concern is the formation
and structure of the earth.

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Geographers. Concern is the surface of
the earth. Climatologists, concern

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is the prevailing natural conditions
on earth, sunshine, temperature, wind

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, precipitation,

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chemists concern is for the
composition, structure and substance of earth

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as a group. Their interest is in this
planet as the site in its structure

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and its materials and in its
conditioning. The earth is their unit of

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measure.

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Botanists. Concern is plant life
zoologists, animal life biologists,

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living organisms. Ecologists, there
are inter relationships of organisms

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and their environment.

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Their group interest is in harmonious
existence and coexistence of life

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forms. As a unit of measure,

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anthropologist concern is homo
sapiens. Sociologist concern is society's

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social institutions and social
relationships,

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psychologists, concern is mental and
behavioral characteristics.

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Their group interest in general is
humans is a unit of measure.

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My point is excellence of performance

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and the dedication of many people in
many scientific disciplines using

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many units of measure over many years
time have built a very large body of

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knowledge about earth and vicinity.
It's given conditions and its life

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forms,

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the natural context.

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Environment

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has been rather clearly defined

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Now, what about homo sapiens? What has
he she done to this wondrous of

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fear with all this knowledge.

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Modern version. Hope. Oh, simians

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Homo sapiens has for the most part
almost completely failed to understand

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that this knowledge must be used as
the generator for any harmonious

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modification of earth for human
purpose.

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Without mass dedication to this
thesis, there will be little excellence in

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the design of the built environment.

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The fact of the matter is that most of
the built environment is not even

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designed at all, or if so not
seriously, it happens

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because material gain is the prime
motivator and the unit of measure

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in the main professionals. And I speak
primarily of professionals in my

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own field, which is architecture who
professed concern and have

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opportunity and ability

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to actually do something seemed to be
preoccupied with style as an end in

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itself,

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it's an international disease.

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These people play highly esoteric
games among themselves, sacrificing

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concern for an organic and cohesive
whole.

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They sacrificed this for very private
ego, images,

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there is a real preoccupation with it
in our current society.

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An imagery will never be a substitute
for vision.

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one must ask if most professionals are
really seriously seeking as

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individuals

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that inner balance so necessary to a
person. To selfishly search for a

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human environment.

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Excellence doesn't seem to be the goal
and dedication is not the stance,

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the ego is in the way

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it has become the unit of measure

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and as I see it, it is quite
insufficient to cope with the larger forces

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at work in the environment,

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sadly enough. That small percentage
for whom the human his unit of measure

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has deeper meaning and who have the
wisdom and ability to shape a human

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environment seldom or never have that
opportunity.

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They may struggle responsibly and
relentlessly with dedication

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to the excellence of the vision of a
higher level of human consciousness

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and a human environment

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in sympathy with such a desire as a
real objective. But there's a well

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nigh impossible task.

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However, pessimism is not the order of
the day, nor is it the tone of my

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thoughts at a festival. Optimism in
the sense of joy should prevail

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what I have been saying really is in
the past or at most present, there is

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the future and with it in my mind
comes hope and hope lies in the young

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in recent years. One senses a new
maturity in youth. Some basic change has

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occurred.

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The human brain

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and mine has evolved to that point
where intelligent young people have

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become aware that a more inclusive and
more comprehensive approach to

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dealing with the environmental issues
that are crystallized by anyone's

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interface with both the natural order
and his her fellow beings is

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necessary.

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It is requisite that has individuals

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their cognitive of and order in their
own minds. The complexity of

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measuring units now in use in society,

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then they must simplify

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they possess the ability to do so in
increasingly large numbers

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and we must strive to assure that
their behavior will be responsible,

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that they will know and respect their
earth and the dedication to

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excellence in achieving a human
environment

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can only be developed in harmony and
communion with the natural order.

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And we must try to influence them in
making this choice. Thank you.

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Mhm.

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I think some of you are being blinded
by the sun. Would you like to move

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over to one side or the other? Just
I'll face this way or that way.

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Okay. Um

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My name is Peter Blake and I'm
chairman of the School of Architecture, the

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boston Architectural Center and I'm an
architect as well. Um I thought

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that I'd I'd like to talk about these
two concepts. Excellence and

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commitment. Bye. Reading short part of
a an article that appeared in the

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boston globe about a week ago and it
said Dateline Washington. The

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Department of Housing and Urban
Development is shutting down its New towns

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program, putting an end to a sad
that's unquote, sad, painful and

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expensive effort unquote to build
innovative new communities throughout

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the nation. The new community's effort
is one of the best publicized

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failures of all federal urban
programs. One official declining to be

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identified said its reputation was so
low. That quote, we didn't want to

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tarnish the urban policy unquote the
new towns initiative losses in the

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eight year new communities program now
total $149 million. And the Office

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of Management and budget has refused
to release planning funds to revive

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the program then goes on to say after
a lot of blah blah blah. Uh the

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department will try to sell off most
of the seven projects it's

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liquidating. These projects are in
Jonathan Minnesota, perhaps the best

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known of the new towns as well as park
forest south in Chicago, cedar

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riverside in Minneapolis flower mound
near Dallas texas, riverton and gin

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, and a near Rochester new york and
new fields near Dayton Ohio. Now. Um

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I think that we who are sitting in one
of the most interesting you towns

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in the world today or in the
beginnings of one should uh comment on this

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announcement, which frankly I um
welcome. I think perhaps new towns do not

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have been built, should not have been
planned by the feds to to start with.

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But in any case the failure has now
been recognized and losses are being

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liquidated and if any of you want to
buy a used new town um you have to

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write to MS. Patricia Harris, who is
the Secretary of Housing and Urban

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development in the in Washington, D.
C. Um

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There are, I think there are two

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examples perhaps of

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what of the issue of excellence in
architecture and urban design and the

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issue of excellence and the issue of
commitment,

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but to most of us who are architects,
the person who has been most

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influential In the formulation of
ideas and so on in the past 1015 years.

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It's been a man called Robert, Venturi
in philadelphia and mr venturi

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whose books are very well known
buildings are quite well known to is um of

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course famous for his statement that
uh Main Street U. S. A. Is almost all

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right. Um he is famous for having an
effect. Said that the way to uh

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deal with the urban problem in America
is to join mid cult America to join

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middle America to join Main Street and
to emulate in fact what Main Street

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and the strip in las Vegas and
Levittown new york and other communities of

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that sort have done his he himself
happens to be an extremely

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sophisticated person, very scholarly
man, very excellent architect. And it

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seems to me, although I'm very fond of
him and I admire his intellect. It

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seems to me that it is an incredibly
condescending attitude for an

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intellectual and a person who might
very well in another time have been

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committed to excellence, to say to the
rest of the population, uh let them

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eat bread if that's what they want.
You know, let's give it to them, let's

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give them Main street, let's give them
storefronts, let's give them the

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back of the A and P. That's what they
want, that's what they'll get. Um

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that it seems to me is not a
commitment to excellence of the kind that

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architects in the past of head that
most of us, I think I still believe in.

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It seems to me to be a commitment to
the kind of middle american. Uh, the

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streetscape, the kind of middle
american mentality that

00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:25.566
the Nixon administration was so very
much in tune with that other recent

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administrations have been in tune
with. It does not to me seem to be a

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very

00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:38.799
valid, very respectful way of treating
your fellow men and fellow women.

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That is one, however, one enormously powerful point of view today point of

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view that is gaining adherence
everywhere. That is saying in effect, we

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can't do anything with american cities
anyway, in american suburbs,

00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:58.927
they're uniformly awful or worse. So
let's just try to fit in and do the

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best we can under the circumstances.
The other kind of

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um commitment. The other kind of
dedication is I think, exemplified in

00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:19.566
this place here. I've known power for
about 25 years or more. And the last

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time I was here was about five years
ago in the Place was had a few

00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:28.957
foundation walls and one or 2 of the
arches. It has what you've seen, what

00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:35.627
you see here today was built with
incredible selflessness, incredibly hard

00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:40.887
work and a number of part of a great
many people with tremendous

00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:46.707
dedication, with a tremendous
commitment to an ideal and I think there is

00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:52.187
nothing in my mind other than total
admiration for what has been achieved

00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:56.607
here and what I'm sure will be
achieved in the years to come.

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I received a statement which I think
Carlo read in part earlier this

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morning. I received it a few days ago
and in it is a sentence in which he

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:12.207
points out that

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it should be the declared intentional
determinant pursuit. It should be

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:23.976
the declared intentional policy, I
guess, of uh public authorities To uh

00:20:24.009 --> 00:20:28.357
faster to support the determined
pursuit of exotic ideas which offer the

00:20:28.390 --> 00:20:32.367
opportunity of testing, verifying and
assessing notions, systems and

00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.576
situations now which may well become
run of the mill in the next century,

00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:43.927
20 years or so away. He makes the
point that in a, in today's uh America,

00:20:43.960 --> 00:20:49.056
there are no alternative lifestyles
being developed in terms of new towns

00:20:49.089 --> 00:20:54.336
in terms of new communities and this,
this may very well be the only one I

00:20:54.369 --> 00:20:57.877
happen to disagree with him slightly.
I also think that there's one other

00:20:57.910 --> 00:21:02.226
new town in America that I find
interesting, that's Disney world in

00:21:02.259 --> 00:21:08.407
Orlando, but perhaps that isn't a
completely relevant case in point.

00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:15.347
However, having said all kinds of
things and really deep admiration about

00:21:15.380 --> 00:21:19.207
this place. I want to bring up the one
issue which obviously is being made

00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:25.857
by uh, everyone who knows uh Asadi,
everyone who's been here, everyone who

00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:32.417
will be here. And that is, is this in
fact an answer to the problems of

00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:37.097
urban design, city planning of
survival of cities in America or is this an

00:21:37.130 --> 00:21:44.917
escapist uh solution, a way of getting
away from it all. A way of escaping

00:21:44.950 --> 00:21:50.607
all the nasty unpleasant of other
problems that all of our cities face.

00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.486
I've never lived in this kind of
environment before. I've always lived in

00:21:54.519 --> 00:22:00.617
cities like new york and now in boston
I find it very difficult to relate

00:22:00.650 --> 00:22:05.447
the kind of thing that I see here to
anything other than perhaps a very,

00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:11.296
very beautiful shangri la, a very
beautiful place. Far removed from the

00:22:11.329 --> 00:22:15.687
real problems of the real world, The
racial problems, the economic

00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:21.246
problems, the terrible problems of
pollution, the terrible problems of uh

00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:27.806
mechanisms of functional organisms
that no longer work.

00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:32.586
I raised this really as a question
because it is a question that is being

00:22:32.619 --> 00:22:37.457
asked of everyone and Pablo and I have
talked about in the past. I'm sure

00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.076
that all of you brought it up at one
time or another, I raised it simply

00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:43.407
because I think that's what we ought
to be talking about, one of the

00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.217
things that we ought to be talking. So
I think at this point I'm stopping

00:22:47.250 --> 00:22:55.250
pass microphone too, Jeff cook, keep
this root separate. Uh huh. Yes, we

00:22:56.980 --> 00:23:02.576
have a rather unbalanced panel with
three architects and a sculptor. I'm

00:23:02.609 --> 00:23:08.637
Jeff Cook from the College of
Architecture at Arizona State University and

00:23:08.670 --> 00:23:12.766
of course it's very easy for us to
look at the surroundings that we're in

00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:19.377
at the moment as a kind of model, as a
kind of test of whatever the issues

00:23:19.410 --> 00:23:25.836
are that we think are troubling the
world and we hope to find if goodness

00:23:25.869 --> 00:23:30.447
is expressed in terms such as
excellence and commitment, then potentially

00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.847
we hope to find those things here, I
guess I find that a little bit

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:39.597
troublesome, I'm not ready or willing
to pass judgment on this place and

00:23:39.630 --> 00:23:47.630
one sense or another. In fact, I'm
sort of amused that professionals often

00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:53.877
speak about the thing that they do,
we're in a living as practice. And I

00:23:53.910 --> 00:23:57.276
tend to think that that's what this
is, this is practice, that this is the

00:23:57.309 --> 00:24:03.697
first stroke, that it's a sketch. And
I think personally that it would be

00:24:03.730 --> 00:24:09.677
very wrong for us to look on this as
having any finality in terms of

00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:16.717
suggesting solutions or conclusions,
two urbanity or to the built

00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:18.907
environment.

00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:21.306
Um

00:24:21.339 --> 00:24:27.066
I uh I was going to play the Devil's
Advocate, but I think I've already

00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:30.056
been

00:24:30.089 --> 00:24:37.627
sort of upstaged. I was I was going to
at one stage sort of proposed that

00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:40.897
we should talk about the opposite of
excellence and commitment, that we

00:24:40.930 --> 00:24:45.296
should talk about mediocrity. Uh and
that we should talk about the second

00:24:45.329 --> 00:24:52.306
class. Ron girly told us that
excellence was first class and I think that

00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:56.276
really is an important issue to raise
though, is what sort of culture do

00:24:56.309 --> 00:25:04.309
we live in and is excellence prized um
is commitment respected the times

00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:13.279
and places that we live in. I'm not
sure that those goody goody goals have

00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:20.117
much significance, that they have much
weight with the ordinary person and

00:25:20.150 --> 00:25:27.717
I've heard it alluded to more than
once today, the kind of comment that

00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:34.377
smacked of ego trips and elitism and
this is really difficult because

00:25:34.410 --> 00:25:38.786
professionals by definition ought to
be able to do something better than

00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:45.197
somebody else and thereby they set
themselves apart and there we get this

00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:48.377
excellence and commitment.
Incidentally, I think I tend to think that the

00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:52.407
commitment ought to come before the
excellence.

00:25:52.440 --> 00:26:00.440
Well, um, uh, against these kinds of
thought, I've wondered what kind of a

00:26:00.589 --> 00:26:05.107
proposal I might make uh,

00:26:05.140 --> 00:26:10.726
with respect to the issue of art and
the environment and the opportunity

00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:17.887
to be able to speak together. And it
seemed to me that it might be better

00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:25.576
to suggest not an architectural or
sculptural or musical solution. Um, but

00:26:25.609 --> 00:26:32.806
rather to suggest a more personal kind
of a direction and maybe it's not

00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:40.006
so much a solution as a kind of
resolution of the frustrations of our time.

00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:48.039
Um, I wonder whether the pursuit of
excellence and the question of oh,

00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:58.006
planning for the future shouldn't
begin with ourselves with some kind of,

00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:03.877
as Ron girly mentioned to return to
the natural order, whether it

00:27:03.910 --> 00:27:09.586
shouldn't be directed toward a re
examination of ourselves and our

00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:15.746
personal lives. Um, I happen to be
involved very heavily in solar energy

00:27:15.779 --> 00:27:20.756
and the issues of energy applications
to buildings and the rest of our

00:27:20.789 --> 00:27:26.667
built environment. And I, I really get
turned off by the many

00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:31.967
professionals who make a lot of noise
in those many fields and then they

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:40.000
go out and jump in there, big car and
of go home to a life which seems to

00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:48.256
be so completely at odds to their
daily commitment. And I I sent that kind

00:27:48.289 --> 00:27:55.377
of fracturing, that lack of integrity
um is evident in more professions

00:27:55.410 --> 00:27:59.407
than those people who were involved in
solar.

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:05.276
And so I would prefer to avoid looking
at the aesthetic uh, as an as an

00:28:05.309 --> 00:28:13.309
isolated issue. I wonder whether we
couldn't move all of us. Um, both you

00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:17.806
toward some sort of

00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:25.839
concept of life itself is an art form.
Um, the idea that first of all, one

00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:32.367
must get his own house in order his
own personal life. Uh and then

00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:39.076
secondly, obviously uh this hopefully
can be expanded to become a kind of

00:28:39.109 --> 00:28:42.107
communal responsibility.

00:28:42.140 --> 00:28:47.387
So this double barreled responsibility
first to self and then communal,

00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:53.506
communal has to do with both
maintenance and enhancement.

00:28:53.539 --> 00:28:58.127
Um, in terms of maintenance, we all do
all this stuff all the time. You

00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:01.516
know, we get up in the morning and
that in itself is sometimes an

00:29:01.549 --> 00:29:09.549
incredible act. Uh it's not very often
an artistic act. Um, and the, the

00:29:09.819 --> 00:29:16.407
little acts of grooming and I suppose
actor maybe a good word to use. Um

00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:23.006
can these not be the basis for just a
little bit of sublimation.

00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.996
Then there's the business of fueling
ourselves of energizing ourselves

00:29:30.029 --> 00:29:36.006
with food. Do we, do we feed or do we
dime?

00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:40.326
There's the daily maintenance of our
mind and its expansion and

00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:42.826
stimulation.

00:29:42.859 --> 00:29:50.286
There's the parallel for our bodies uh
the business of maintaining and

00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:55.786
hopefully enhancing the resilience of
the physical thing that sort of

00:29:55.819 --> 00:29:59.576
carries the rest of us around the
current popularity with jogging. Of

00:29:59.609 --> 00:30:03.806
course this is a kind of

00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:11.839
very popular attempt to roll all of
that into one particular discipline.

00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:14.207
Uh

00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:19.506
and then these are just ways of
looking itself.

00:30:19.539 --> 00:30:25.847
The art of living though really has to
do with sharing. It has to do with

00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:31.016
the enhancement and the incremental
improvement of the time that we live

00:30:31.049 --> 00:30:39.049
in and here is where service and where
sharing with others becomes a much

00:30:39.500 --> 00:30:42.607
larger kind of fulfillment.

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:48.647
Well, that's the kind of what it's uh
it's an idea that maybe all of us

00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:55.099
ought to be more artists, all of us
ought to have more integrated lives.

00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.140
There are other issues which are perhaps a lot easier to face. The where

00:31:03.140 --> 00:31:08.726
all of us are someplace. And one of
the observations I would make about

00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:15.147
the 20th century is the kind of
nomadic civilization that we live in. One

00:31:15.180 --> 00:31:22.907
of the things about industrialization
is that it is nomadic, that it is

00:31:22.940 --> 00:31:30.697
totally universal in its availability
and even cultural attributes

00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:36.857
increasingly have a kind of instant
replay potential. Well, this then

00:31:36.890 --> 00:31:40.707
gives us a special kind of

00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:43.806
frame of reference

00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:50.766
because in effect we need to develop
disciplines of integrity uh that can

00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:58.006
travel uh that can survive and can

00:31:58.039 --> 00:32:06.039
persevere in a materialistic and
nomadic setting traditionally because

00:32:06.230 --> 00:32:14.230
cultures that had integrity, um we're
very locally based, they had a place

00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:22.586
, they had a focus and I think that
certainly is one of the fracturing

00:32:22.619 --> 00:32:28.597
aspects of the life we have now. We
sell them, it seems we sell them

00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:33.806
settle in one spot long enough to get
our act together.

00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:41.437
Uh And lastly one might examine the
house of this kind of program uh And

00:32:41.470 --> 00:32:47.476
again, I'm afraid I have a very modest
kind of suggestion. Uh It seems to

00:32:47.509 --> 00:32:51.127
me that it not only takes the sort of
dedication and commitment that's

00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:55.707
already been described, but again, it
takes a particular focus of

00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:02.127
particular direction, it takes
concentration, it takes specialization if I

00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:08.957
could use an architectural analogy. Um
The Parthenon, which has often been

00:33:08.990 --> 00:33:14.576
acclaimed, was really built three
times. Uh And obviously the third time

00:33:14.609 --> 00:33:16.917
was better than the second, and the
second time was better than the first

00:33:16.950 --> 00:33:24.217
, but the concept of a greek temple,
which is epitomized in the kind of

00:33:24.250 --> 00:33:28.377
approach to perfection that the
Parthenon represents uh was not a new

00:33:28.410 --> 00:33:31.867
invention with that building, that was
a building type that had been

00:33:31.900 --> 00:33:36.467
practiced. And here we come back again
to some of my earlier words, the

00:33:36.500 --> 00:33:42.816
use of the word practice uh for a
series of centuries. Uh So that with

00:33:42.849 --> 00:33:48.617
that kind of continuous dedication to
a certain theme, there was an

00:33:48.650 --> 00:33:54.427
approach to perfection. Um so those
are a few thoughts which I would very

00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:58.107
much appreciate some interaction on.

00:33:58.140 --> 00:34:05.707
Mhm Okay, uh my name is Chris
Robinson, I'm a sculptor from south Carolina

00:34:05.740 --> 00:34:07.907
and

00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:13.727
I came in here on very short notice
and I spent most of my time here being

00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:18.456
involved with that commitment of
finishing the work that I came here to do.

00:34:18.489 --> 00:34:21.617
In fact every time I glance out the
window and see the sun setting, I

00:34:21.650 --> 00:34:26.867
keep getting this feeling that I
should be outside working. Yeah, so in

00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:32.557
spending my time or my commitment on
my work, I came somewhat ill prepared

00:34:32.590 --> 00:34:36.697
for this panel and I've been sitting
here and joked with the panelists at

00:34:36.730 --> 00:34:43.057
first that I'd listen and hopefully go
last and hopefully find something

00:34:43.090 --> 00:34:47.296
that offended me sufficiently to get
my dander up and have something to

00:34:47.329 --> 00:34:51.927
talk about for a while. Well, I
listened and listened and listened and

00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.006
listened to these panels before

00:34:55.039 --> 00:35:00.057
and I was disappointed that nothing
came about that really offended me, we

00:35:00.090 --> 00:35:05.807
could try again. Okay, I'm I'm hoping
now that I'm setting you up, but

00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.256
then I turned to the next alternative,
I tried to think of something that

00:35:09.289 --> 00:35:14.796
I could use to sufficiently offend the
other panelists and what strikes me

00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:21.006
as somewhat even santa is I couldn't
even come up with that. Oh,

00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:24.896
I really feel in some ways like the
odd man out, I tried to figure the

00:35:24.929 --> 00:35:29.287
similarities, the idea of dealing with
space and I tried to figure the

00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:34.316
differences and I kept coming up with
stagnant old things like form and

00:35:34.349 --> 00:35:42.349
function, things like that.

00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:47.606
Um what?

00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:52.606
Yeah,

00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:56.106
just

00:35:56.139 --> 00:36:00.396
Uh huh,

00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:04.396
that's, that's what I was just gonna
say essentially that I can sit here

00:36:04.429 --> 00:36:08.697
and try and give you some description
of why I'm here, but I don't think

00:36:08.730 --> 00:36:11.927
that's really fair for the panel and
there'll be an opportunity for that

00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:18.177
tomorrow. But after setting up all
these suggestions and having high hopes

00:36:18.210 --> 00:36:22.276
and not really any answers perhaps as
was suggested earlier, the best

00:36:22.309 --> 00:36:27.166
thing is unless there are some other
immediate comments to turn to you and

00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:32.617
hope that one of you can sufficiently
offend me or us into some more

00:36:32.650 --> 00:36:37.396
stimulating discussions. Okay.

00:36:37.429 --> 00:36:41.356
Mhm.

00:36:41.389 --> 00:36:48.597
Whoa, this is progressive, john was
mentioning about communities. Yeah.

00:36:48.630 --> 00:36:51.097
 Quality selection,

00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:55.186
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:55.219 --> 00:37:00.336
What accumulates. Yes, they

00:37:00.369 --> 00:37:07.197
said, I'm wondering what your
architects commitment is,

00:37:07.230 --> 00:37:10.296
community are

00:37:10.329 --> 00:37:17.057
you stay too young? However pierce to
himself as a professional

00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:21.427
businessman as ours as work,

00:37:21.460 --> 00:37:27.697
just go beyond building. Ask

00:37:27.730 --> 00:37:31.296
the sculpture as the water.

00:37:31.329 --> 00:37:39.329
Mhm Well, let me let me answer this as
honestly as I can. I think that

00:37:40.429 --> 00:37:46.867
architects in a capitalist society and
in very bad trouble because most of

00:37:46.900 --> 00:37:53.997
the time the person who hires them for
whom they work or the authority or

00:37:54.030 --> 00:37:58.807
the people who hire them are not the
users and yet the dialogue that

00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:03.747
architects want to engage in should
be. And is I mean architects want to

00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:07.497
engage in a dialogue with the users
for the future users or close

00:38:07.530 --> 00:38:13.936
facsimile thereof. And yet the people
they seem to be responsible too are

00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:18.017
people who may never use any of the
structures of cities and communities

00:38:18.050 --> 00:38:23.506
at all. I think that this is a very
very serious dilemma. It has been for

00:38:23.539 --> 00:38:30.867
architects for many generations and
any a society which is not in effect a

00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:38.166
socialist society and how it might
work whether it might work differently

00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:40.486
in a

00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:45.276
uh in a an ideal socialist society I
don't know. But in recent years as

00:38:45.309 --> 00:38:50.247
you know the it has been very
difficult for clients to impose their

00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:56.637
buildings on the users and so the
pressure from user groups from beginning

00:38:56.670 --> 00:39:01.776
with the people that drain Jacobs
organized and so on, you know um has

00:39:01.809 --> 00:39:05.637
been sufficiently great so that
architects have been able to work with the

00:39:05.670 --> 00:39:09.747
users of their buildings rather than
with the clients, the people who pay

00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:15.626
the bills. And I think by and large
this is improved the end product

00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:19.657
immeasurably. But I think the
preference on the part of most architects is

00:39:19.690 --> 00:39:26.387
to work with the users of the
communities that they been to serve.

00:39:26.420 --> 00:39:31.986
I wouldn't means in my mind

00:39:32.019 --> 00:39:38.267
one of my favorite people I never
really met him but was about to just

00:39:38.300 --> 00:39:43.486
before he died was you have schumacher
and I know you're familiar with his

00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:47.887
small is beautiful philosophy,

00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:54.876
the conditions in the the world of uh
huh building the environment today

00:39:54.909 --> 00:40:02.267
are such that since the all mighty
dollar is the standard of measure, very

00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:08.477
large machines which turn out plans
for buildings for corporations

00:40:08.510 --> 00:40:14.686
in a very impersonal kind of way or
the order of the day. And uh huh one

00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:21.376
can see in cities like boston or even
in some of the european cities now,

00:40:21.409 --> 00:40:28.577
which used to be dignified by church
towers as the prime visual element

00:40:28.610 --> 00:40:36.166
are now dignified by banks and
insurance companies. And profit money

00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:41.316
making material gain is the motivation
which is shaping today's

00:40:41.349 --> 00:40:46.086
environment. And that kind of
idealistic, wonderful kind of relationship

00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:52.137
that we want to think of between
architect and client doesn't exist. And

00:40:52.170 --> 00:40:59.356
it will not exist until these great
machines are destroyed, until the

00:40:59.389 --> 00:41:05.967
society itself rises. And says that if
we want to have a fine environment

00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:11.597
, we are going to have to break down
and many people working on small

00:41:11.630 --> 00:41:14.376
scale things

00:41:14.409 --> 00:41:20.456
will make of fine built environment.
But under the conditions that we have

00:41:20.489 --> 00:41:25.896
today, there will be no such thing if
we could pursue this question a

00:41:25.929 --> 00:41:30.537
little bit. Because while we approach
the subject of mediocrity with

00:41:30.570 --> 00:41:35.807
tongue in cheek, uh I think we've
already had two readings from two

00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:42.606
eminent educators that the, that the
marketplace is not interested in

00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:48.247
excellence that architects are indeed
looked on as a service personnel for

00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:54.017
business aspirations. And I wonder if
there is anything we have to say

00:41:54.050 --> 00:42:00.037
about what turns, let's say the
commitment of prospective architects,

00:42:00.070 --> 00:42:04.517
young students who enter architectural
schools and the kind of

00:42:04.550 --> 00:42:09.546
transformation as they gradually
realize the kind of real world that they

00:42:09.579 --> 00:42:14.767
must face as a prospective
professional.

00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:19.166
Would you like me to? Yes, I sure. Um,

00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:22.606
I'm not quite sure. I agree with your
interpretation of what I said, but

00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:28.217
the you're quite right in saying that
in the world as it is now in this

00:42:28.250 --> 00:42:33.166
country, architects are considered
service personnel to a client who may

00:42:33.199 --> 00:42:40.566
very well be uh, a Rockefeller or
whatever. I mean the most grotesque a

00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:48.316
example of building for a client
rather than the users is the Albany mall

00:42:48.349 --> 00:42:54.197
in upstate new york and Albany new
york where the client was nelson

00:42:54.230 --> 00:43:00.157
Rockefeller. Period one man, he got
the money for it and he was the one

00:43:00.190 --> 00:43:04.206
who had to be satisfied, his ego had
to be satisfied. The tens of

00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:08.637
thousands of people who are working
there now, we're never considered,

00:43:08.670 --> 00:43:12.427
never asked, never interviewed, never
pulled. Neither were the tens of

00:43:12.460 --> 00:43:17.697
thousands of people who were displaced
when that fascist construction took

00:43:17.730 --> 00:43:21.887
place. It's quite true that architects
are considered service personnel

00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:27.037
today in this country, but I think
that at the same time, the two things

00:43:27.070 --> 00:43:30.767
that are happening. First thing that I
mentioned already that the

00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:36.597
community groups are beginning to feel
their strength, their beginning to

00:43:36.630 --> 00:43:41.566
resist and they're beginning to um
insist on being consulted. The second

00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:47.646
thing is that my point was not that
architects, that people, I didn't want

00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:53.006
excellence. That may be true or it may
not be true. Uh, my point is that

00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:57.267
architects who think that they do have
a sense of quality, of what

00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:02.756
buildings should be like should

00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:07.447
try to set examples of excellence. I
mean, if if I were if I overheard a

00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:13.677
couple of doctors say, uh, my God,
give him junk food, you know, it'll

00:44:13.710 --> 00:44:16.986
probably kill him. But that's what he
wants. I would not have very much

00:44:17.019 --> 00:44:21.066
confidence in those doctors and that
is the kind of talk that goes on

00:44:21.099 --> 00:44:24.916
among good many architects, you know,
who say Main street is almost all

00:44:24.949 --> 00:44:29.827
right. Let's blog Main Street. So that
was my point. My point is not that

00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:34.637
we should abdicate from trying to set
examples. I'm sorry, I've talked

00:44:34.670 --> 00:44:41.856
much to you have any thoughts? Well,
it's a, I think the young people and

00:44:41.889 --> 00:44:47.287
that I really have confidence in them
to do something about this. And one

00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:52.666
of the points I was trying very much
to make was that they should not be

00:44:52.699 --> 00:45:00.256
spending their time working with the
ego, images of some people who happen

00:45:00.289 --> 00:45:05.236
to be successful practicing architects
today.

00:45:05.269 --> 00:45:08.717
They really should be going after the
basics and they really should be

00:45:08.750 --> 00:45:15.697
finding out about their earth and what
the life on it really is. And how

00:45:15.730 --> 00:45:21.467
from that kind of a basis, an
architecture of meaning and the built

00:45:21.500 --> 00:45:28.086
environment can come that will be
something different than we have now. To

00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:32.467
me that's the exciting thing about
being in the world of building an

00:45:32.500 --> 00:45:38.477
architecture that everything still
lies ahead because to this point

00:45:38.510 --> 00:45:44.956
practically nothing has been done that
has substance or will remain.

00:45:44.989 --> 00:45:49.736
They ask us very frequently, uh huh.
I'm the dean of the College of

00:45:49.769 --> 00:45:53.916
Architecture at the University of
Arizona. They asked me why are you

00:45:53.949 --> 00:45:59.606
training so many architects? The
market is overloaded already. We don't

00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:06.177
need them. But who is saying that the
practitioners who run big plant

00:46:06.210 --> 00:46:14.210
mills are saying that man is by nature
of building animal and uh

00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:20.697
to him falls the responsibility of
modifying and altering the earth's

00:46:20.730 --> 00:46:27.347
surface. And that is an awesome
responsibility in my mind.

00:46:27.380 --> 00:46:34.177
And large numbers of young people need
to grow up understanding what these

00:46:34.210 --> 00:46:42.210
real issues are about environment and
not be misled and drawn away by

00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:50.519
flashy images and superficial uh huh
catchy kinds of things.

00:46:50.579 --> 00:46:55.747
That's why I talked about the
preoccupation with style. This is nonsense.

00:46:55.780 --> 00:47:00.836
This is not going to lead us to an
architecture or an environment or a

00:47:00.869 --> 00:47:03.146
community

00:47:03.179 --> 00:47:11.179
of any quality of any kind where
excellence and dedication or issues

00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:17.947
be here who wanted to something else

00:47:17.980 --> 00:47:23.646
you have alluded to individuals

00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:27.646
means

00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:34.436
your friend and yet we do our
interests are the architects that you were

00:47:34.469 --> 00:47:40.947
encouraged individuals rather than the
large corporations, The community's

00:47:40.980 --> 00:47:44.887
really begin with individuals. And I
think our facility that's

00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.247
particularly

00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:53.247
a community of individual. No, that
way

00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:56.146
are you

00:47:56.179 --> 00:47:59.046
from architects

00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:05.407
for individual excellence. Mm hmm.
Well, the group is made up of

00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:10.416
individuals and each of us is born an
individual and will always be an

00:48:10.449 --> 00:48:17.586
individual. And each of us has to face
the issue of measuring him or

00:48:17.619 --> 00:48:25.619
herself against the natural order and
against fellow human beings and

00:48:27.269 --> 00:48:33.247
fellow human beings, measuring
themselves against each other create scenes

00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:38.436
very frequently, but

00:48:38.469 --> 00:48:43.626
a sack. A self sacrifice of some kind.
A rising above the superficial ego.

00:48:43.659 --> 00:48:51.376
To the point of getting in touch with
one's real deep ego is it's an

00:48:51.409 --> 00:48:59.409
issue for everyone in society today.
Not not just architects and these

00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:07.166
kinds of things happen not in a short
period of time, but people like Carl

00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:11.666
Sagan once again are dealing with the
evolution of the human brain that

00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:18.026
understanding the sense of a new level
of consciousness developing in

00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:23.916
which some of the kinds of things that
we're talking about, I think have a

00:49:23.949 --> 00:49:28.936
much better chance of occurring.

00:49:28.969 --> 00:49:34.876
But the individual human being is the
real unit of measure in life, the

00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:41.447
degree to which individual beings come
together because of their desire

00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:48.256
for things like excellence because of
their dedication to things will

00:49:48.289 --> 00:49:55.736
evolve into the possibility of a finer
environment for us that

00:49:55.769 --> 00:50:00.727
maybe I could reply in a different way
of speaking about the profession.

00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:04.927
Um, I think I would agree with the
observation that architects, at least

00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:11.376
in this country seem not to be
terribly responsive to the public at large

00:50:11.409 --> 00:50:17.486
, nor potentially to issues of
excellence. Um and maybe that's one of the

00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:21.137
reasons why we're here to do something
about it. I would make an

00:50:21.170 --> 00:50:25.387
observation that that the
architectural profession doesn't behave the same

00:50:25.420 --> 00:50:29.847
way everywhere. And in particular um
in England, where I've had some

00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:35.617
experience over the last generation or
so, the architectural profession

00:50:35.650 --> 00:50:41.907
has made itself um more or less
indispensable to society. It is made

00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:46.977
society and in that case, that mostly
has to do with collective

00:50:47.010 --> 00:50:51.727
governmental agencies, believe that
architects are really necessary to the

00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:59.686
society. And this is in England, I'm
speaking about Britain. Um and

00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:05.086
thereby uh there is a great deal more
interaction and inter

00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:12.097
responsibilities between the
profession and the public at large. I don't

00:51:12.130 --> 00:51:18.867
know whether I could say that the
built environment, um it is discernibly

00:51:18.900 --> 00:51:24.626
better yet, but it seems to me that
that at least is one situation which

00:51:24.659 --> 00:51:29.427
may have some promise. If I were to
make excuse for american architects

00:51:29.460 --> 00:51:36.597
who would be that they do after all
have to live in the same, a kind of

00:51:36.630 --> 00:51:42.947
value system that everyone else lives
in and they can very easily starve

00:51:42.980 --> 00:51:47.097
themselves if they don't match the
needs of the society and there goes the

00:51:47.130 --> 00:51:50.427
excellence right out the window.

00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:54.927
They are controlled by the people who
pay the tune.

00:51:54.960 --> 00:52:02.617
I wonder what our sculptor has to say
about this kind of dilemma. How'd

00:52:02.650 --> 00:52:06.717
you get your bread?

00:52:06.750 --> 00:52:13.717
Mhm. Well, it's, it's interesting to
me that you suggest that

00:52:13.750 --> 00:52:21.750
let the people take over and control
the shape of architecture. Mhm. I as

00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.977
somebody else in the audience
mentioned, think that would be an

00:52:25.010 --> 00:52:29.227
interesting idea to pursue. But if
it's such a good idea, why isn't it

00:52:29.260 --> 00:52:33.816
done? The potential certainly exists
to do it.

00:52:33.849 --> 00:52:40.327
Yeah. This also begins to address the
question of and I haven't found out

00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:45.907
who is for and who's against yet. But
the question of elitists versus

00:52:45.940 --> 00:52:52.347
looking at whole societies. Um,
looking at set pieces of art versus

00:52:52.380 --> 00:52:56.916
looking at whole environments.

00:52:56.949 --> 00:53:04.949
Yeah. Mm hmm. Some other day. Thank
you. Yeah.

00:53:07.550 --> 00:53:10.217
Yeah.

00:53:10.250 --> 00:53:17.807
Sorry. Whether objects should as the
kind of work products and you want to

00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:24.387
do. I know. Yeah. Some believe that
the company produced requirements

00:53:24.420 --> 00:53:32.106
would not have the food here,
responsibility, bodies 10. I promise to be

00:53:32.139 --> 00:53:37.916
reported. You can't see the war. Could
you

00:53:37.949 --> 00:53:45.617
conceded four o'clock. Whoa. Oh, this

00:53:45.650 --> 00:53:51.597
You are welcome.

00:53:51.630 --> 00:53:59.630
They don't need few problems. Maybe
not tomorrow in the uh, yourself into

00:53:59.789 --> 00:54:07.789
the work. We need soul expression or
not. Oh yes. Do you love through the

00:54:10.059 --> 00:54:15.907
bars. Last occupations are going to be
the requirements remain the sense

00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:22.486
of responsibility because people
really love recreation business with

00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:28.967
violent. The Lord gave this world,
we're across the board meeting every

00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:35.467
last amendments this year. You know
the job. You were creative and he

00:54:35.500 --> 00:54:39.467
wasn't much better.

00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:46.856
The whole society one million
definitely envision marinate schools,

00:54:46.889 --> 00:54:54.376
universities, different magazines.
Whoa. Most inference direction and you

00:54:54.409 --> 00:54:59.506
don't even have to know. Mhm. No

00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:03.307
on the best

00:55:03.340 --> 00:55:10.117
is I think it was really clear role.
You better start people at the one

00:55:10.150 --> 00:55:16.606
just change your schools. Let's change
the this activity world has become

00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:23.986
experiences. If you really believe
that we are not candies on the

00:55:24.019 --> 00:55:30.407
bottom, you must share Metropolitan.

00:55:30.440 --> 00:55:36.106
We talk to ourselves. We must start
now

00:55:36.139 --> 00:55:41.206
position different issue. You must be
right for the right sort of the way

00:55:41.239 --> 00:55:46.767
we just got this arrangement about
someone who say what you know what they

00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:53.776
want first talk about. You should be
the ways the most like to communicate

00:55:53.809 --> 00:56:00.206
with you. You can see you couldn't go
through letters and argue. I don't

00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:08.239
use the wonderful incentive to want to
go out to the moment the design

00:56:09.460 --> 00:56:16.686
specifications. Yeah. I think it's
about time for us to say whether maybe

00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:22.086
as soon as our responsibility and we
are, he's just wonderful. That's a

00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:26.486
lot of people work for crosses the
countries that you want. You want to

00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:33.037
have potential of break about us.
We're not creating.

00:56:33.070 --> 00:56:39.336
They are always happy. Yeah. Happy
instances. I don't think that one

00:56:39.369 --> 00:56:45.407
should get the idea that we're
completely pessimistic that there are many

00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:52.197
sizable occasions where architect
client or community have really made

00:56:52.230 --> 00:56:55.597
very good contributions.

00:56:55.630 --> 00:57:00.296
There's another question back there.

00:57:00.329 --> 00:57:07.916
Yeah, for as much our past working
users, Okay, we'll do that in a single

00:57:07.949 --> 00:57:14.137
house. You might be able to do it by
the 16 department house. Uh, you

00:57:14.170 --> 00:57:21.146
might be able to do a small sort of
mostly used uh go home americans as

00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:29.179
part of their what bars, okay,

00:57:29.730 --> 00:57:37.166
control his name full of direction.
Uh,

00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:41.666
let me try to answer and I think after
that we probably have to quit this

00:57:41.699 --> 00:57:46.727
room. I was, I was using that term
working with the user in some

00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:51.727
metaphorical sense. For example, many
times take a dormitory, student

00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:55.206
dormitory at the university. Obviously
you're not going to be able to talk

00:57:55.239 --> 00:57:59.396
to the people who are going to be
there in five years from now 10 years.

00:57:59.429 --> 00:58:03.296
But there is a great difference
between working with the buildings and

00:58:03.329 --> 00:58:07.227
grounds department of the university
which is staffed by a bunch of idiots

00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:11.997
most of the time who paint everything
green and number every door, you

00:58:12.030 --> 00:58:16.287
know, which is the only interest and
working and really talking to

00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:23.486
students and finding out how students
like to live now in, in boston where

00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:28.787
Ron used to live and I still do Um
there is a dormitory as many of you

00:58:28.820 --> 00:58:33.296
know by all to which was done in 1948
in which almost every room, every

00:58:33.329 --> 00:58:38.816
student room is slightly different
from every other room. Now that was an

00:58:38.849 --> 00:58:43.367
incredibly radical idea and extremely
sensitive perception on the part of

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.796
alta because he realized that students
don't want to be treated like

00:58:46.829 --> 00:58:53.537
numbers at the same time. Before then.
And since then thousands of student

00:58:53.570 --> 00:58:58.477
dormitory rooms in the greater boston
area have been built. But people who

00:58:58.510 --> 00:59:00.907
have never talked to anyone have been
designed by architects have never

00:59:00.940 --> 00:59:04.586
talked to anyone except the buildings
and grounds people at Harvard and

00:59:04.619 --> 00:59:08.217
MIT and so on. So I think it's a, I
was using the term user and

00:59:08.250 --> 00:59:11.247
metaphorical sense. You know, if you
talk to the people, the kinds of

00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:16.097
people are going to be using it, the
kinds of people as widely as possible

00:59:16.130 --> 00:59:19.767
rather than to your clients. I think
that's anyway, I think we have to

00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:25.017
leave. Thank you very much.

00:59:25.050 --> 00:59:32.287
Can I think you say, yeah,

00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:38.387
I think you can find in old
traditional societies that

00:59:38.420 --> 00:59:45.206
what we call doctors, medical man are
not really isolated practitioners

00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:48.186
that look only after

00:59:48.219 --> 00:59:52.276
the body. In most traditional
societies. You have the conception of the

00:59:52.309 --> 00:59:59.977
medicine men, the healer who is much
more than than the men who is

01:00:00.010 --> 01:00:04.327
trying to repair part of your body
when it is worn up. He is a man who is

01:00:04.360 --> 01:00:09.896
trying to see how you have got out of
the equilibrium of things. What is

01:00:09.929 --> 01:00:15.887
the relation of the human being to his
entire future forces and how this

01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:19.876
whole system got out of balance.

01:00:19.909 --> 01:00:27.909
So the role of culture in this
processes to promote continuous integration

01:00:29.110 --> 01:00:35.376
is to promote and enhance process of
harmony

01:00:35.409 --> 01:00:41.637
and this has been so in all
traditional societies in our society. I think

01:00:41.670 --> 01:00:47.046
culture does it symbolically by trying
to invent various codes and various

01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:53.296
interactive messages whereby by
symbolic relationship we get into harmony

01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:58.706
with ourselves and with with the rest
of the union. This in terms of

01:00:58.739 --> 01:01:04.787
physical processes, we have all the
quantitative measures whereby a body

01:01:04.820 --> 01:01:08.086
is kept in equilibrium. But on the
social and cultural level there are

01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:14.856
those more subtle symbolic
interactions which culture takes care of

01:01:14.889 --> 01:01:20.456
sometimes marvelously well and without
much awareness of what

01:01:20.489 --> 01:01:26.677
of our awareness what it is doing.
Instead of rumbling. I'll just

01:01:26.710 --> 01:01:31.677
Try to read one or 2 paragraphs which
summarize my positions,

01:01:31.710 --> 01:01:36.977
which is to say that the idea of
cultures healer designates a process

01:01:37.010 --> 01:01:43.666
whereby the individual is psychically
and spiritually renewed by it when

01:01:43.699 --> 01:01:49.427
at the same time he positively
contributes to it. Culture is healer that

01:01:49.460 --> 01:01:56.586
works in two ways by transmitting to
us the invisible psychic energy which

01:01:56.619 --> 01:02:02.686
makes us feel to belong at home at one
with ourselves and at one with

01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:06.776
other human beings. And I think this
environment that has been created

01:02:06.809 --> 01:02:14.026
here is as good example as any of
certain building forms that have more

01:02:14.059 --> 01:02:21.316
than physical shapes to them that have
certain symbolic significance. The

01:02:21.349 --> 01:02:25.566
forms that work on us and the forms
that we find conducive and enhancing.

01:02:25.599 --> 01:02:31.256
I think my case really addressed on
your experience of this environment

01:02:31.289 --> 01:02:36.447
and your realization whether and in
what sense this is a healing

01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:43.407
environment, whether in what sense man
does not live bye bread and butter

01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:47.247
alone, but those subtle spiritual
interactions, What is it in the nature

01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:51.157
of those environments which are rich,
spiritual and cultural that makes us

01:02:51.190 --> 01:02:55.236
feel good? That makes us feel somehow
healed and mandate. What is it in

01:02:55.269 --> 01:03:01.137
this environment that makes us feel
good? And I think the introspection of

01:03:01.170 --> 01:03:05.367
this process of experience would
reveal that there is a peculiar kind of

01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:11.666
healing process where by many of the
processes of disintegration of us is

01:03:11.699 --> 01:03:18.767
cultural beings have been somehow
mended. So I'll finish reading this bit

01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:26.367
by suggesting that secondly, by
challenging us to contribute to it

01:03:26.400 --> 01:03:32.506
and by engaging and absorbing us into
its own life. Both processes have a

01:03:32.539 --> 01:03:36.617
healing power for without them, the
individual becomes tomorrow's the rain

01:03:36.650 --> 01:03:42.126
schizophrenic. In short, we are a part
of the life of culture and culture

01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:48.177
is an intrinsic part of our life put
otherwise, culture shapes the

01:03:48.210 --> 01:03:56.210
individual, who in turn contributes to
the ethos of the culture. So we are

01:03:56.599 --> 01:04:01.227
aware that we are complex and fragile
systems, vulnerable all the time to

01:04:01.260 --> 01:04:07.637
the processes of entropy, both
physical and psychic our body that is the

01:04:07.670 --> 01:04:13.477
live process and life processes in our
body combat this tendency to

01:04:13.510 --> 01:04:19.097
entropy by continuously reintegrating
what entropy wants to dissolve our

01:04:19.130 --> 01:04:23.756
minds and our psychic life are subject
with ceaseless entropy as well.

01:04:23.789 --> 01:04:28.416
Culture and the process is it
generates our power. Excellence, integrity

01:04:28.449 --> 01:04:32.626
. I think this is one of the most
characteristic of culture from my point

01:04:32.659 --> 01:04:36.356
of view, this integrity from the
psychological

01:04:36.389 --> 01:04:40.256
cultural and psychic level,

01:04:40.289 --> 01:04:44.217
they are constantly rebuilding what
entropy wants to dissolve in. Yet

01:04:44.250 --> 01:04:48.577
another formulation. Culture is healer
signifies the anti dropping

01:04:48.610 --> 01:04:53.456
qualities of culture which keeps
constantly rebuilding the structures are

01:04:53.489 --> 01:04:58.706
a psychic and spiritual life. When
men's spiritual life is gone, the human

01:04:58.739 --> 01:05:05.066
being is, in a significant sense, dead
as you may be aware, the old

01:05:05.099 --> 01:05:09.916
fashioned expression that culture is
quote, the nourishment of the soul on

01:05:09.949 --> 01:05:15.827
this definition is not far from the
truth. If my soul, we mean the variety

01:05:15.860 --> 01:05:19.717
of psychic energy that men transact
with his culture and other human

01:05:19.750 --> 01:05:25.157
beings, then the expression is exactly
right.

01:05:25.190 --> 01:05:29.686
Well, if such is the case, let us look
very briefly historically it and

01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:37.057
contemporary scene and see where we
are and what has gone wrong, as you

01:05:37.090 --> 01:05:41.186
are aware in this remarkable book than
in the art of motorcycle

01:05:41.219 --> 01:05:48.907
maintenance robert person claims that
our ages somehow defunct and

01:05:48.940 --> 01:05:55.206
crippled because it lacks of quality.
In my opinion, it is because it

01:05:55.239 --> 01:05:59.376
lacks of spirituality or my second
thesis is that it is the spiritual

01:05:59.409 --> 01:06:03.727
substance of culture that keeps it
nourishing in the life and it's because

01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:07.586
we have somehow perched ourselves of
spiritual content during the last two

01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:12.617
centuries that we find our culture not
nourishing the process really

01:06:12.650 --> 01:06:18.256
started in the pasta renaissance
times, but really in a big way with the

01:06:18.289 --> 01:06:23.157
evolution of the mechanistic
worldview, with the idea of the cosmos as a

01:06:23.190 --> 01:06:27.767
clock like mechanism. In perfecting
this metaphor of the universe is a

01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:31.427
clock like mechanism we have
continually, that is during the last

01:06:31.460 --> 01:06:33.447
centuries,

01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:38.077
try to eliminate all the elements of
the universe that somehow didn't

01:06:38.110 --> 01:06:42.626
belong to the mechanistic metaphor,
that we're not express a bill through

01:06:42.659 --> 01:06:48.456
physical laws. As the result, we have
perched all non physical elements,

01:06:48.489 --> 01:06:53.267
first from Physics, then from
chemistry, then from physiology, then in the

01:06:53.300 --> 01:06:56.727
19th century from psychology. And then
at the end of the 19th century, in

01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:01.126
the 20th century, from culture and
from art in particular, from for the

01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:08.117
pursuit of uh secularism meant chasing
out all the gods and by the same

01:07:08.150 --> 01:07:12.776
token, all the spiritual and
transcendental forces from it. It has been an

01:07:12.809 --> 01:07:15.646
unfortunate

01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:20.447
coincidence or a mistake of the

01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:24.436
pursuit of the mechanistic worldview,
that while trying to liberate

01:07:24.469 --> 01:07:28.066
ourselves from the constraining
aspects of religion, we attributed to

01:07:28.099 --> 01:07:32.956
religion, not only those defunct
aspects of it, but also all spiritual and

01:07:32.989 --> 01:07:37.217
transcendental functions. So we have
eliminated not only the tyranny of

01:07:37.250 --> 01:07:43.037
religion, but also a great deal of
transcendental and spiritual content

01:07:43.070 --> 01:07:48.307
that have gone with Yeah, the practice
and then then the worship of

01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:52.526
religion as the result, particularly
in the second half of the 19th

01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:57.847
century, we have increasingly
impoverished our art and our culture

01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:03.327
From the standpoint of the history of
art we receive from 19th century On

01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:07.807
the late 19th century on the
progressive

01:08:07.840 --> 01:08:14.396
liberation of the artist from form,
first from classical form in music, in

01:08:14.429 --> 01:08:21.467
painting and sculpture, and then from
All forms. So that in the 20th

01:08:21.500 --> 01:08:26.227
century anything goes, anything goes.
But at the same time, one has to

01:08:26.260 --> 01:08:29.836
realize that while liberating
ourselves from the constraints of

01:08:29.869 --> 01:08:34.656
traditional culture, we have liberated
art from what it was always

01:08:34.689 --> 01:08:38.446
renowned for from being a carrier of
spiritual substance, spiritual

01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:41.836
message. And I think the plight of
modern art, particularly the second

01:08:41.869 --> 01:08:45.097
half of the 20th century art, the
plight of the avant garde is really

01:08:45.130 --> 01:08:51.446
exactly in proportion to its
abandoning its role as a carrier of spiritual

01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:59.256
substance, as the conveyor of cultural
values which have maintained, I

01:08:59.289 --> 01:09:06.227
would sanity and our well being for
such a long time and no wonder that

01:09:06.260 --> 01:09:10.756
there is almost universal revulsion to
modern art for modern artists,

01:09:10.789 --> 01:09:16.666
particularly on the healing if we are
really acting against it. I think it

01:09:16.699 --> 01:09:20.807
is for good reason for our instinct
tells her that it is not art that

01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:26.637
somehow integrates that is wholesome
for modern art somehow, on purpose

01:09:26.670 --> 01:09:32.357
assaults us and disintegrates us. In
my opinion, If we are going to

01:09:32.390 --> 01:09:38.147
survive as integrated human beings,
there must be some symbolic modes that

01:09:38.180 --> 01:09:44.937
do it for us out in this Second half
of the 20th century somehow somehow

01:09:44.970 --> 01:09:52.456
relegated to renounce its role as he
there and so far nothing has emerged

01:09:52.489 --> 01:09:55.336
in its place

01:09:55.369 --> 01:10:01.647
to rephrase the point through the
words of Gaeta who once said that to

01:10:01.680 --> 01:10:08.256
treat men as he is, is to debase him
to treat men as he ought to be, is to

01:10:08.289 --> 01:10:12.847
embrace him. Traditional religions and
traditional art treated men as he

01:10:12.880 --> 01:10:17.706
ought to be. Philosophers from the
renaissance on and particularly from

01:10:17.739 --> 01:10:22.187
the 18th century on, particularly in
the 19th and the 20th century, and

01:10:22.220 --> 01:10:27.456
inspired by Marxist by positivism by
secularism, increasingly treated man

01:10:27.489 --> 01:10:34.027
as his and increasingly debased him.
So our agenda now is to again,

01:10:34.060 --> 01:10:41.987
treatment is he ought to be and to re
fuse culture with spiritual, some

01:10:42.020 --> 01:10:49.777
substance which it has lost. And what
I feel as exciting and what I feel

01:10:49.810 --> 01:10:53.006
is happening here is that somehow, in
spite of the seeming impossibility

01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:58.717
of doing so, we have been able to
again re select this old fashioned

01:10:58.750 --> 01:11:03.817
concept of men who is made not only of
clay but of stars and our pursuit

01:11:03.850 --> 01:11:08.057
here is the pursuit of excellence in
the term of treating men as he ought

01:11:08.090 --> 01:11:12.527
to be and therefore embracing him. And
this has been always the most

01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:18.506
important aspect of culture and this
is why culture has been healer and

01:11:18.539 --> 01:11:26.027
this is why I insisted unless we are
somehow able to recapture

01:11:26.060 --> 01:11:31.937
the symbolic significance of healing
process of culture, we are going to

01:11:31.970 --> 01:11:38.696
do, be in trouble and we are in
trouble As you know, during the last 15

01:11:38.729 --> 01:11:43.387
years, the number of mentally ill
patients that, that that has increased

01:11:43.420 --> 01:11:48.647
in the United States 400%. And I'm
told that half of the beds are occupied

01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:54.147
by mentally deranged persons. And I
think if we really look at large as

01:11:54.180 --> 01:11:57.227
very perturbed

01:11:57.260 --> 01:12:02.756
mental scene of our times, so many
people being at a loose end, in my

01:12:02.789 --> 01:12:07.987
opinion, it is the result of the
culture that has been unable to somehow

01:12:08.020 --> 01:12:12.006
group people spiritually. That has
been able to provide the nourishment

01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:16.227
which maybe not quantifiable, not
empirical, not physical, but yet all

01:12:16.260 --> 01:12:20.807
important. So we are sick people
because we have a sick culture somehow

01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:26.727
deprived of and spirituality and this
is few comments I want to share with

01:12:26.760 --> 01:12:34.760
you.

01:12:36.149 --> 01:12:44.149
Mhm.

01:12:45.750 --> 01:12:53.750
Say that the cells in our body. Okay,

01:13:07.350 --> 01:13:15.350
well actually plato was already of
this opinion that our

01:13:18.250 --> 01:13:25.517
and yet although they are all new uh
function in the same kind of

01:13:25.550 --> 01:13:30.477
universal way that your nose is for
sneezing your eye for seeing. And also

01:13:30.510 --> 01:13:35.506
it is recognizable your nose and your
eyes. Well, I mean, whatever they

01:13:35.539 --> 01:13:43.539
say granted that they say it what
follows from it. Yeah,

01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:07.116
I think that I don't know and I think
that we don't know and I think that

01:14:07.149 --> 01:14:13.156
whatever arguments have been provided
so far are clearly unsatisfactory. I

01:14:13.189 --> 01:14:19.597
think that I can provide one
significant clue by pointing out that

01:14:19.630 --> 01:14:24.807
many people have suddenly die after
retirement

01:14:24.840 --> 01:14:28.586
when they retired in full strength and
suddenly they found that they have

01:14:28.619 --> 01:14:35.506
, they had nothing significant to do
and the whole spirit has with it also

01:14:35.539 --> 01:14:42.347
that the number of deaths of spouses
after one of the spouses died during

01:14:42.380 --> 01:14:47.866
the first six months is phenomenal. So
one can die of grief, which means

01:14:47.899 --> 01:14:51.996
again that it is not only the
nourishment, the physical aspect, but all

01:14:52.029 --> 01:14:55.416
other symbolic aspects of our
interaction with other human beings that are

01:14:55.449 --> 01:15:01.116
important. Beyond that. I think I can
speculate as well as you can, but I

01:15:01.149 --> 01:15:06.527
think that certain coherence and
meaning to life is very necessary to go

01:15:06.560 --> 01:15:11.607
on. And again, another example how
much examples can prove, I don't know,

01:15:11.640 --> 01:15:19.640
there was a famous case of the man who
was blind from birth and gained

01:15:19.739 --> 01:15:26.036
Side after an operation at the age of
40 and he was fantastically thrilled

01:15:26.069 --> 01:15:32.927
and really excited at first sure
enough, sometimes he would have to touch

01:15:32.960 --> 01:15:39.376
objects in order to see them. However,
after six months he found that this

01:15:39.409 --> 01:15:44.496
was not so exciting. After nine months
he found that he was getting

01:15:44.529 --> 01:15:52.529
increasingly board And after 15 months
without any reason he died.

01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:57.067
I know that those examples do not
answer your question and yet in a kind

01:15:57.100 --> 01:16:00.897
of anyway, they made,

01:16:00.930 --> 01:16:08.930
if you had a question now that

01:16:43.029 --> 01:16:50.506
well Look at the stars 1st and and at
your navel next while most of the

01:16:50.539 --> 01:16:54.746
time we just do it all the way around
and indeed sometimes and often we

01:16:54.779 --> 01:16:58.946
never see the stars. I think that the
problem is really deep one because I

01:16:58.979 --> 01:17:03.647
do not particularly blame this culture
of this generation for what is

01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:08.387
happening in the States at present is
a result of a long process. It was a

01:17:08.420 --> 01:17:12.017
progressive mechanization of the
cosmos. Progressive instrumental ization

01:17:12.050 --> 01:17:17.467
of of the universe through instruments
of power whereby we were supposed

01:17:17.500 --> 01:17:21.366
to gain domination of it all and
become rational. And therefore we didn't

01:17:21.399 --> 01:17:25.706
need any spirit strapping on religion
and art for rationality. Science and

01:17:25.739 --> 01:17:31.046
technology was going to do it all for
us. And this pursuit of power of

01:17:31.079 --> 01:17:36.067
control of manipulation has been
really intoxicating for the european mind

01:17:36.100 --> 01:17:39.996
for at least two centuries. And then
we found that there is a limit to it

01:17:40.029 --> 01:17:43.467
and indeed that there is a kind of
dialectical limit to it. That after we

01:17:43.500 --> 01:17:47.187
have saturated our world with certain
instruments of power, they are big

01:17:47.220 --> 01:17:53.807
firing and the dream of happiness and
dream of fulfillment by share power

01:17:53.840 --> 01:18:00.116
of manipulation isn't really turning
into a nightmare and therefore the

01:18:00.149 --> 01:18:07.977
processes to or rethink it de novo to
rethink what are myths, what our

01:18:08.010 --> 01:18:12.126
underlying assumptions with our ideas
and you will have to to to realize

01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:16.147
that it is because we have emptied our
cosmos of what all other cultures

01:18:16.180 --> 01:18:23.086
assumed to be the case as Marshal
Selene says in his book,

01:18:23.119 --> 01:18:28.687
culture is a practical,

01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:31.286
whatever it is,

01:18:31.319 --> 01:18:35.567
practical and practical reason, we are
the only people who think that they

01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:43.600
descended from the beast, all others
think they descended from gods.

01:18:44.100 --> 01:18:47.416
I think there is a significant point
to be taken for all other people

01:18:47.449 --> 01:18:52.536
think that the universe, the nature is
endowed with the spire beyond

01:18:52.569 --> 01:18:57.706
beyond physical that it somehow
reverberates with spiritual transcendental

01:18:57.739 --> 01:19:03.177
power. And we have to re sacrifice in
a sense, the cosmos around us in

01:19:03.210 --> 01:19:06.987
order to find our destiny

01:19:07.020 --> 01:19:10.656
for ourselves. And in order to feel
that we are reunited with the stars

01:19:10.689 --> 01:19:14.286
again. And then I think we will have
much less difficulties of finding

01:19:14.319 --> 01:19:19.727
particular goals uh for for ourselves.
For we find those girls so very

01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:23.826
difficult because our universe is so
very close and and and and and and

01:19:23.859 --> 01:19:28.696
and and really uh we are trapped when
we open our universe. There'll be so

01:19:28.729 --> 01:19:33.406
many causes and and our destiny will
be united with so many other forces

01:19:33.439 --> 01:19:39.286
that you will never really ask those
kinds of questions

01:19:39.319 --> 01:19:47.319
you wanted to continue, huh?

01:19:49.720 --> 01:19:57.720
To treat men and women as she ought to
be and beyond what he or she is.

01:19:59.720 --> 01:20:07.720
Because treating ourselves as we are,
is really

01:20:08.210 --> 01:20:13.376
treating us wrongly not giving enough
scope for for for what we may become.

01:20:13.409 --> 01:20:17.876
 If we really try to reach the stance

01:20:17.909 --> 01:20:21.977
we have just started, we are just
doing.

01:20:22.010 --> 01:20:27.477
Mhm. Mhm

01:20:27.510 --> 01:20:34.546
Tomorrow morning before I worry about
my problem with my students, with my

01:20:34.579 --> 01:20:42.579
Dean's with my girlfriends or whatever
look and the beauty of this

01:20:43.210 --> 01:20:48.296
canyon. And we remarked myself how
incredible it is to be able to see how

01:20:48.329 --> 01:20:56.329
incredible it is to interact with
those elements are incredible. It is to

01:20:56.789 --> 01:21:01.326
to perceive and somehow transform
creatively environment. This is on the

01:21:01.359 --> 01:21:07.446
personal level to really realize the
utter uniqueness of our being in this

01:21:07.479 --> 01:21:11.576
universe and to realize that we are
repository of fantastic endowment of

01:21:11.609 --> 01:21:16.906
life and fantastic endowment of human
genius through generations and

01:21:16.939 --> 01:21:23.977
millennia, which we are often
squandering by changing it into into those

01:21:24.010 --> 01:21:29.987
disposable goods. And then really by
maintaining the dialogue with other

01:21:30.020 --> 01:21:35.826
human beings, not on the level, out of
our biological and economic being,

01:21:35.859 --> 01:21:41.477
but on the level of our transcendental
being and on yet another level by

01:21:41.510 --> 01:21:47.727
trying to reformulate all those dogmas
and assumptions which we make about

01:21:47.760 --> 01:21:52.777
developing ourselves often under the
auspices of philosophies that serve

01:21:52.810 --> 01:21:58.546
tried to serve men as his As you know,
for quite a while, particularly the

01:21:58.579 --> 01:22:03.086
60s. There was a number of theories
justifying our greed, our selfishness

01:22:03.119 --> 01:22:08.147
by alleged aggressive nature of men.
And there were many of such books.

01:22:08.180 --> 01:22:12.246
Now suddenly anthropologists turn
around and say, well, this is really a

01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:16.387
superficial reading reading Leakey,
who is really one of the greatest of

01:22:16.420 --> 01:22:22.156
anthropologists by examining the
remnants of those home avoids some two

01:22:22.189 --> 01:22:27.017
million years ago Came to the
conclusion and suggested strongly that the

01:22:27.050 --> 01:22:30.687
our ancestor of two million 2 million
years ago. It was a very gentle and

01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:33.937
cooperative creature.

01:22:33.970 --> 01:22:40.937
And this theories of aggression is
somehow uh kind of manipulated outcome

01:22:40.970 --> 01:22:45.807
of trying to justify the practice of
our society. And this is one of the

01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:49.756
rethinking. And then we don't have to
apologize for wanting to be

01:22:49.789 --> 01:22:53.317
altruistic, for wanting to be
compassionate, for wanting to embrace each

01:22:53.350 --> 01:22:58.046
other, for wanting to reach the stars.
And this way of thinking will be

01:22:58.079 --> 01:23:02.057
very important and really tremendously
important. So that we find new

01:23:02.090 --> 01:23:06.177
premises and new philosophies that
will justify among other things, what

01:23:06.210 --> 01:23:10.496
we are doing here and what we are
doing in weak moments. And those things

01:23:10.529 --> 01:23:18.529
have to go on simultaneously. Chris
has a point.

01:23:31.270 --> 01:23:36.866
I think the facts are what they have
already trying to sketch. We

01:23:36.899 --> 01:23:41.317
try to suppress our noble impulses by
thinking that we are foolish and

01:23:41.350 --> 01:23:45.496
romantic and at the same time trying
to somehow develop, which is really

01:23:45.529 --> 01:23:49.897
very much encouraged by schools and
the whole structure of society. Those

01:23:49.930 --> 01:23:55.267
aggressive and competitive instincts.
And by this token, we polarize the

01:23:55.300 --> 01:24:02.057
whole scene. I concede among my
students In the late 60s, early 70s, the

01:24:02.090 --> 01:24:05.357
whole thing somehow loosened up and
they started to evolve into

01:24:05.390 --> 01:24:09.376
Alternative modes. After the economic
crunch came they are again

01:24:09.409 --> 01:24:15.746
struggling with each other really hard
to raise their great by one decimal

01:24:15.779 --> 01:24:20.557
point and they are really inflicting
pain on themselves. They're really

01:24:20.590 --> 01:24:24.446
perpetuating the wrong myth, that it
is all a matter of objective

01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:28.477
attainment, it's all a matter of
raising a great by the simple point, it's

01:24:28.510 --> 01:24:32.336
all a matter of outdoing each other,
all a matter of knifing really each

01:24:32.369 --> 01:24:37.177
other by saying that I am better than
you are and therefore I cannot do it.

01:24:37.210 --> 01:24:41.616
I think this is the kind of
competitive ladder which capitalist system

01:24:41.649 --> 01:24:45.836
wants to to perpetuate for. It is
based on the assumption that, you know,

01:24:45.869 --> 01:24:50.656
it is a jungle and therefore either
you or I without realizing that this

01:24:50.689 --> 01:24:58.689
medium has proved bankrupt for the
system itself and consequently our

01:24:59.390 --> 01:25:03.107
justification of new philosophies
which put a new light on men and our

01:25:03.140 --> 01:25:06.977
behavior which tried to justify that
it's alright to be gentle. It's

01:25:07.010 --> 01:25:09.916
alright to be loving. It is all right
to be carrying. It's alright to be

01:25:09.949 --> 01:25:14.427
compassionate to each other. That this
is really not something that, that

01:25:14.460 --> 01:25:18.097
only Sissies who cannot make it in the
other world are indulging it. But

01:25:18.130 --> 01:25:22.696
this is in the nature of things that
it is congruent with the order of

01:25:22.729 --> 01:25:28.067
things. It may be congruent with
larger evolution of man, I think

01:25:28.100 --> 01:25:33.017
rethinking those propositions and
rewiring our mind. Our assumptions are

01:25:33.050 --> 01:25:38.586
these positions are behavior is
tremendously important for so much so we

01:25:38.619 --> 01:25:42.296
feel so many of us so good here
because we do not have to be on the

01:25:42.329 --> 01:25:46.347
defensive, We do not have to fight. We
do not have to compete. However,

01:25:46.380 --> 01:25:52.116
once we leave here we put the chute on
and struggle again and I think that

01:25:52.149 --> 01:25:56.277
this schizophrenic spirit doesn't have
to be that what we're trying to do

01:25:56.310 --> 01:26:01.506
here and in other communities is much
more universal. Then this skin

01:26:01.539 --> 01:26:07.326
competitive uh aggressive behavior
which is really an invention of the

01:26:07.359 --> 01:26:14.347
last year's, the invention of free uh

01:26:14.380 --> 01:26:19.116
capitalist economic, free free
enterprise system which can be traced not

01:26:19.149 --> 01:26:24.977
to any loss of nature but specific
pieces of legislation. Within 18th and

01:26:25.010 --> 01:26:29.946
19th century England, we have
historically invented certain institutions

01:26:29.979 --> 01:26:34.586
which we have imposed on society and
then try to evolve various ideologies

01:26:34.619 --> 01:26:38.006
and philosophies justify them and then
subverted the entire system of

01:26:38.039 --> 01:26:41.977
education and subverted and somehow
brainwashed all our students ourselves

01:26:42.010 --> 01:26:45.637
, including your professors because
they are there chief villains and main

01:26:45.670 --> 01:26:50.536
enemies. They have really screwed up
your education and then you're

01:26:50.569 --> 01:26:53.656
thinking in your perception and then
we are complaining that things are

01:26:53.689 --> 01:26:58.256
not working and then we have to redo
the whole thing and then start with

01:26:58.289 --> 01:27:05.027
the assumptions. Again, I'm not giving
you an easy road to truth or normal

01:27:05.060 --> 01:27:10.006
stars. Road to truth is always thorny
and a road to studies impossible.

01:27:10.039 --> 01:27:15.456
But you have to follow it or to
summarize what I'm really saying by words

01:27:15.489 --> 01:27:23.347
of world. Uh huh.

01:27:23.380 --> 01:27:25.647
No

01:27:25.680 --> 01:27:33.680
what has been? Uh Yeah. Do you want?

01:27:37.979 --> 01:27:45.979
Mhm.

01:28:00.670 --> 01:28:04.826
Well this cosmos is so vast because we
have evolved the whole system of

01:28:04.859 --> 01:28:09.477
education supporting wrong mitts and
I've spent a number of years being

01:28:09.510 --> 01:28:13.437
educated or being brainwashed by
philosophers and I can see how philosophy

01:28:13.470 --> 01:28:18.807
departments operate the best ones are
the worst in a sense, because they

01:28:18.840 --> 01:28:23.706
really carry on this, this, this
gospel of objectivity, of analytical

01:28:23.739 --> 01:28:28.517
detachment, of cutting all
propositions to the extreme and to to be really

01:28:28.550 --> 01:28:33.206
best in their trade, is to forget that
you are, you have a heart, you have

01:28:33.239 --> 01:28:38.437
feelings, you have guts, you are an
abstract brain and your great

01:28:38.470 --> 01:28:43.227
achievement is to be able to, I'll do
your masters in analyzing

01:28:43.260 --> 01:28:48.076
propositions with ever you scrutiny
and as a result, there is a very

01:28:48.109 --> 01:28:53.517
curious kind of mind that comes and
this kind of mind will go to educate

01:28:53.550 --> 01:28:58.137
other kinds of minds, it is really
kind of ruthless analytical scrutiny

01:28:58.170 --> 01:29:04.607
which impinges on the entire being of
persons and this is you know, only

01:29:04.640 --> 01:29:09.237
in the field I know best, but the same
kind of scrutiny goes all the time.

01:29:09.270 --> 01:29:13.137
 So we should not think that the

01:29:13.170 --> 01:29:16.826
reversal will be easy for, for we are
up against the whole system of

01:29:16.859 --> 01:29:21.786
education which is the entire culture
that has brainwash itself and now

01:29:21.819 --> 01:29:26.076
wants to perpetuate itself for no
institution really relinquish is its

01:29:26.109 --> 01:29:31.217
power, even if it knows that it is
bankrupt without trying to drag

01:29:31.250 --> 01:29:37.607
everything with it, fortunately
enough, there is enough alternative and

01:29:37.640 --> 01:29:42.317
craves, but the battle is really in
your minds and your hearts and I think

01:29:42.350 --> 01:29:47.406
that uh by this token uh tension, it
is right, that is a revolutionary.

01:29:47.439 --> 01:29:53.116
But there is no way that you can
really have a ready made alternative

01:29:53.149 --> 01:29:58.956
world for you. For as I was starting
to say, walt Whitman No, I nor anyone

01:29:58.989 --> 01:30:03.807
else can travel that road for you. You
must travel it yourself. However,

01:30:03.840 --> 01:30:08.277
if there is enough of us that want to
travel this alternative road by the

01:30:08.310 --> 01:30:14.767
courage and determination will be able
to get others because the other

01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:19.717
other paradigm is rolling on with
great force, but people are not happy in

01:30:19.750 --> 01:30:24.836
being in it. I think that this is one
of the remarkable sign of our times

01:30:24.869 --> 01:30:29.357
that although we are the most affluent
of all societies, we are one of the

01:30:29.390 --> 01:30:34.706
most miserable and unhappy of all
societies, for we have proved beyond any

01:30:34.739 --> 01:30:38.977
reasonable now that affluence doesn't
provide happiness, that the

01:30:39.010 --> 01:30:45.076
consumption of energy is not a quality
of life and consequently people,

01:30:45.109 --> 01:30:49.836
even even in a nice suburbia, are
looking for for alternatives and it will

01:30:49.869 --> 01:30:55.527
be up to you to to show them how to
live an alternative life and with it

01:30:55.560 --> 01:31:00.677
evolve. Alternative assumptions. My
bit is to try to underlies for you and

01:31:00.710 --> 01:31:06.227
others and myself how really

01:31:06.260 --> 01:31:11.366
contingent that is not necessary. How
really coincidental are the

01:31:11.399 --> 01:31:16.217
assumptions on which our civilization
and culture rests all the invention

01:31:16.250 --> 01:31:22.586
of men of genius, Admittedly of the
17th 18th and 19th century. They have

01:31:22.619 --> 01:31:27.147
resolved the whole universe. We
thought at first for for good for for

01:31:27.180 --> 01:31:30.376
benefit of us all actually the dreams
were too narrow and they are big

01:31:30.409 --> 01:31:37.446
firing. But they show that the whole
heritage of a culture can be written

01:31:37.479 --> 01:31:42.427
because the heritage of medieval
culture was really great and they turn it

01:31:42.460 --> 01:31:47.536
around by their genius. But we now
know that that it was really share kind

01:31:47.569 --> 01:31:53.107
of imagination power that they they
imposed on us and now it is up to our

01:31:53.140 --> 01:31:57.836
share imagination power, engineers to
turn around again the scene and

01:31:57.869 --> 01:32:03.166
again as I said, treat start treating
ourselves as we ought to be. Not as

01:32:03.199 --> 01:32:11.199
we are, let's go and gaze at the
stars.

01:32:14.659 --> 01:32:19.607
Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that master
salary was here. Otherwise I would

01:32:19.640 --> 01:32:25.927
not have finished without asking him
to say the final word. We're busy.

01:32:25.960 --> 01:32:31.960
Okay. The syndrome of the decade,
civilization being busy.