WEBVTT 00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:05.240 nobody is here. I'm Bill ball, come next to me is Norie Miller and over 00:00:07.589 --> 00:00:11.726 here is I believe it's David Greenberg and both of you seem to be involved 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:18.217 somehow with architecture. I'm, I'm merely a musician and I, I don't 00:00:18.250 --> 00:00:22.697 really quite know what I'm to talk about the media except I have a few 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:27.357 thoughts about it and I've also been asked to somehow deal with the 00:00:27.390 --> 00:00:31.206 integration of the media and ourselves. 00:00:31.239 --> 00:00:34.586 Recently. I happened to read an article and I wish I had made notes of it 00:00:34.619 --> 00:00:42.116 more carefully. Bye. A computer scientist, a very prominent one who's at 00:00:42.149 --> 00:00:47.646 Columbia in new york. And he had said that we have really misunderstood 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:53.207 several things about our own particular creation up to now and that is 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:57.807 where we are organic creatures and we feed ourselves by, oh my, let's wait 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:05.840 for this. 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:12.857 Well, all right back well we are actually organic creatures and like the 00:01:12.890 --> 00:01:16.736 rest of the mammals and other animals on the earth. We feed ourselves 00:01:16.769 --> 00:01:21.876 actually by buy food that we have created a large number of creatures 00:01:21.909 --> 00:01:24.656 which are in their own ways. Also alive except they are powered by 00:01:24.689 --> 00:01:29.846 electricity or thereby gasoline or in other words, other sorts of things. 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:34.076 And the fact is that these actually possess life in some strange way as 00:01:34.109 --> 00:01:39.316 much as we do. And there was any, any engine or any electronic gizmo is 00:01:39.349 --> 00:01:42.986 actually a living creature in so far as we are feeding it and it must be 00:01:43.019 --> 00:01:46.656 fed in the same kind of way. That was one interesting thing in the words 00:01:46.689 --> 00:01:50.566 were really driving a live automobile, We're turning on a live television 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:54.147 set. These are all creatures, each of which have a certain amount of 00:01:54.180 --> 00:01:57.566 ingenuity, individuality and individual ation despite the fact that we 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:01.876 have made them all in some sort of a mass produced environment. So the 00:02:01.909 --> 00:02:06.247 point being that we really have already created something which although 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:09.946 it isn't life in the same kind of way that we are, it really does have 00:02:09.979 --> 00:02:14.446 some of the attributes of life, even though they are probably robotic and 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:19.177 simplified and smaller in application than any one of us and so on. He 00:02:19.210 --> 00:02:23.376 said that the great advantage of this whole world of creation is that it 00:02:23.409 --> 00:02:30.397 does not have in its own potential. Any of our old activist IQ fight and 00:02:30.430 --> 00:02:32.906 flight, 00:02:32.939 --> 00:02:35.987 similar kinds of, you know, things that were constantly worrying about in 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:39.467 our own way, our tendency toward war attention toward killing each other, 00:02:39.500 --> 00:02:43.027 our tendency to over using the environment and so forth, because these 00:02:43.060 --> 00:02:47.096 things aren't built in to the computer or built into any kind of 00:02:47.129 --> 00:02:51.436 electronic device or any kind of engine. And so that in the end their 00:02:51.469 --> 00:02:56.717 world that is built by these creatures as it looks increasingly, it might 00:02:56.750 --> 00:03:02.786 be um, will not have the troubles that hours have because there won't be 00:03:02.819 --> 00:03:06.427 any emotion involved. Well, all right now, how does this involve with the 00:03:06.460 --> 00:03:10.517 question of us in the media? Well, let's take some of the very most 00:03:10.550 --> 00:03:15.307 pervasive phenomena in the media for example, mostly television and all of 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:18.997 us now are living in a world of television. I was born before television 00:03:19.030 --> 00:03:23.087 and many of us in this room were born and remember what it was like before 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.876 television. But there is of course a large, large number of people have 00:03:26.909 --> 00:03:34.307 known nothing else but and the actual facts of the machine that we have in 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:39.376 our homes, how it operates, what it does to us, the fascination of it. And 00:03:39.409 --> 00:03:43.686 even the way how it cuts up time, the way that we have somehow accepted as 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:48.547 someone of our basic language norms, the effect of film cutting the fact 00:03:48.580 --> 00:03:53.017 that they're judging positions rather than perhaps perhaps a a long kind 00:03:53.050 --> 00:03:57.497 of Exposition of any kind of thought. We are not ready as the 19th century 00:03:57.530 --> 00:04:02.446 was to have a story told to us detail by detail by detail and some slow 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:05.906 and rolling sequence, but rather something that's done in a very quick 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:11.047 telegraphic fashion without any need toward transitions. The transitions 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.277 that used to be, for example, in the older filmic medium that dissolves 00:04:14.310 --> 00:04:17.387 and things like that, for example, don't seem to exist hardly any more 00:04:17.420 --> 00:04:21.406 except in the sense of sort of a nostalgic reminiscence of what films used 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.096 to be back in the old days when we did have to have dissolved. We have a 00:04:25.129 --> 00:04:28.246 very quick kind of thing. This has done something to us that has cut us 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:33.096 into a certain kind of kind of rhythm which has had a definite effect upon 00:04:33.129 --> 00:04:37.587 us. And this I probably would be one most immediate kind of things. Why 00:04:37.620 --> 00:04:43.106 have I been so fascinated by this? Because as a composer, I've had some 00:04:43.139 --> 00:04:50.507 insight as to what this has done to the musical form of a musical piece. 00:04:50.540 --> 00:04:54.346 Whereas perhaps maybe in a large Beethoven symphony take something like 00:04:54.379 --> 00:04:59.647 the Eroica, which is a very large, hugely built, carefully balanced 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.106 structure, something that does have a sense of a very strong beginning 00:05:03.139 --> 00:05:06.767 from. I'm taking the opening movement if you're familiar with it and it is 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.976 a very, very long, extended kind of thing. Built on balance is built on a 00:05:10.009 --> 00:05:13.846 sense of sequence, a sense of beginning in a sense of end, in a certain 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.806 sense of uh kind of a natural, what seems to at least the 19th century 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.197 kind of progression of events, each of which are important in a plot sense 00:05:21.230 --> 00:05:24.587 toward the end of the thing that might be considered one polar opposite to 00:05:24.620 --> 00:05:28.527 what might be considered. Now, more likely kind of form. That is to say 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.377 that the unrolling of time that is by cuts by sudden moments by 00:05:33.410 --> 00:05:37.676 juxtapositions, by perhaps maybe a lack of interest in an overall 00:05:37.709 --> 00:05:42.306 structure, but rather by momentary kind of form. And this has had some 00:05:42.339 --> 00:05:45.377 effect, I think, and probably all of us, we tend to think in this kind of 00:05:45.410 --> 00:05:48.527 way, one of the reasons that that commercial television, which is a 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.817 prominent television in the United States is closer to the lifestyle of 00:05:52.850 --> 00:05:56.577 most people is because it is so fragmented because it also doesn't require 00:05:56.610 --> 00:06:00.507 us to be there all the time. I'm sitting there watching a public tv movie 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:05.156 , it's the cabinet of dr caligari they are playing at the old 1919 movie 00:06:05.189 --> 00:06:09.457 and my my wife says God I'd like to go to the bathroom, I can't do it now 00:06:09.490 --> 00:06:12.596 with the with the commercial tv one, can you go get yourself a snack, 00:06:12.629 --> 00:06:14.996 There's other kind of things, the telephone rings and so on and we're 00:06:15.029 --> 00:06:19.257 dealing with a very discontinuous kind of life. The forum has that same 00:06:19.290 --> 00:06:25.817 discontinuity. Now this is good and this is bad. There are certainly it 00:06:25.850 --> 00:06:30.377 means obviously a different kind of texture in our use of time in our 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:33.726 media. It certainly shows one very important thing that the media itself 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:38.277 is strange and implacable and that somehow it's natural to it to do. So it 00:06:38.310 --> 00:06:42.736 isn't important to television what it is showing. No television set gives 00:06:42.769 --> 00:06:47.637 a tinker's damn what it is broadcasting at that particular point, it is 00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:52.637 just simply there being a receptor. It is showing us what all of the 00:06:52.670 --> 00:06:56.616 electronic impulses look like on our screen. They don't care particularly 00:06:56.649 --> 00:07:01.236 what's on them now. I think that probably this is part of the reasons why 00:07:01.269 --> 00:07:04.996 as it happens because of the way it seems to be made because of the 00:07:05.029 --> 00:07:07.806 fragmentation of the thing. Because of the one pointed nous of the two 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.757 that we are dealing with a different way of handling time. Now, what I'm 00:07:10.790 --> 00:07:14.736 struggling with as a composer and as a musician, as a performer and as a 00:07:14.769 --> 00:07:19.296 general involved person with the whole society is how I can cope with this 00:07:19.329 --> 00:07:25.717 change in the handling of time and the handling of moment. A two won't be 00:07:25.750 --> 00:07:29.556 from now to then because I think this has enormous implications on how we 00:07:29.589 --> 00:07:33.996 do tell a musical story, how a thing happens to enroll in the events. And 00:07:34.029 --> 00:07:38.317 this is of course my basic dealing with and that is dealing with time and 00:07:38.350 --> 00:07:41.486 of course this is why I have I suppose been asked to talk about this 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.327 situation of the integrating the habit in the environment because we 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.156 certainly must take into account what these things have done to us. How 00:07:49.189 --> 00:07:53.596 much do we want to have them continue to influence us without any kind of 00:07:53.629 --> 00:07:57.806 feedback on our own? How can we deal with this seemingly fragmented 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:02.507 unrolling of time and find some sort of higher unity so that we can really 00:08:02.540 --> 00:08:06.327 be able to deal with a more coherent kind of structure. We can tell what 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:11.906 has to be said in a more complex and full way. How can we, in other words 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:16.687 , deal with this thing? So it is no longer our master but we can make it 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:24.720 happen for ourselves. 00:08:25.939 --> 00:08:31.947 Would you like Uh huh uh huh very briefly, the only thing is I think that 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:37.226 um it's sometimes dangerous to regard things which are developing and 00:08:37.259 --> 00:08:42.226 things which are changing is necessarily evil. I didn't say what, I think 00:08:42.259 --> 00:08:46.516 one can look at what television does is okay, what is that doing that? 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:49.856 This is part of a process. I think you can see the kids can learn very 00:08:49.889 --> 00:08:55.226 much faster then they could at a certain time and accumulate a great deal 00:08:55.259 --> 00:08:58.766 of information very, very quickly and very, very concisely. And I think 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:02.096 television is teaching that rather than schools and this may be good. This 00:09:02.129 --> 00:09:06.427 maybe not their attention span is certainly a great deal less. But what 00:09:06.460 --> 00:09:10.547 happens is that people change and are influenced and create the what I'm 00:09:10.580 --> 00:09:13.746 talking about of course is the it's gonna be easier to deal with this. I 00:09:13.779 --> 00:09:18.016 think I can't bother to let's take it that way. Okay. And then you can you 00:09:18.049 --> 00:09:21.657 can both get into it and I said what I'm talking about of course is the 00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:26.787 nature of what we learn and how we learn and how it's been changed and I'm 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:32.817 trying to understand this in The light of how it has influenced us. I mean 00:09:32.850 --> 00:09:35.937 what you're saying is that that television is a wonderful teacher, but as 00:09:35.970 --> 00:09:40.026 a teacher of a different sort than a person getting up in front of a class 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:44.697 or a person reading a book, which starts on page one and ends on page 500 00:09:44.730 --> 00:09:49.026 and we go through this very carefully linear kind of thing. Now we've been 00:09:49.059 --> 00:09:54.226 told and probably rightfully that the old linearity is a thing of the past 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:57.736 and that we should now start looking at things in a much more global kind 00:09:57.769 --> 00:10:01.646 of way. And I think some of this is true. I'm not saying that this isn't 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.356 necessarily the natural next move. What I'm interested is in the details 00:10:05.389 --> 00:10:09.907 of how this has changed our perception exactly, exactly. 00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:15.407 Is that you've been making it? 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:23.006 Should I say, should I say something magazine? Mm hmm. Mm for about 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.677 for well, in the first place, the subject being integrating habitat, 00:10:26.710 --> 00:10:31.026 environs and media. Uh, it's obvious to me that that's what this is, 00:10:31.059 --> 00:10:36.776 that's what we're doing now, uh kind of in an experimental way here up in 00:10:36.809 --> 00:10:42.577 salaries. Um, it's, it's uh, it's a pity there aren't more experiments 00:10:42.610 --> 00:10:48.756 like this available to more people uh where uh, these are the subjects and 00:10:48.789 --> 00:10:53.746 where people, you know, get involved in thinking about these things. And, 00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:58.327 and I think people is, I mean the integrating of the, of the habitat, the 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:02.846 environment, the environment and the media. I think uh, the glue is the 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:07.346 people. Um, if this is gonna happen, it's gonna happen through the people 00:11:07.379 --> 00:11:14.856 in other words for the most part. Um, I don't think that the media will 00:11:14.889 --> 00:11:20.787 ever become anything more important than it already is. Uh, by itself. but 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:25.667 somehow with some process of the people taking part in some way. Uh and 00:11:25.700 --> 00:11:31.006 the environs, I mean, uh people have to take part in that. And there are 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.157 some people that there's some that say that people do take part in that. 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:39.807 For instance, I heard an interesting 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:45.207 lecture by paul Rudolph recently in Los Angeles, where he refers to 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.646 everybody uh for instance, in the city of Los Angeles that they are all 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:53.496 urban designers and that the person who's mowing their long is an urban 00:11:53.529 --> 00:11:57.947 designer and is involved in in in the process of dealing with the 00:11:57.980 --> 00:12:01.807 environment. Um 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.596 the media to touch on some things that you've said about the media. I 00:12:05.629 --> 00:12:10.366 think that the, that the media has an incredible potential to learn it 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:15.407 exists for anybody to learn from it exists right now. Uh I think also the 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:20.427 environment, the environment has an equal, incredible potential for people 00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:25.307 to learn from, in other words. Uh if you go out in the morning, you get up 00:12:25.340 --> 00:12:28.407 in the morning, you go out into Los Angeles or any major city in the world 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.207 and you decide that you're going to start learning from it and go around. 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:37.366 I'm looking very carefully, then you will learn from it. Uh you will, uh 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.807 one of the interesting things that happened in the sixties at the end of 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.626 near the end of the sixties, when multimedia was real big and and they 00:12:44.659 --> 00:12:47.957 were doing all these multimedia shows and and all that and then a lot of 00:12:47.990 --> 00:12:50.996 people kind of backed off it at one point because they were afraid of 00:12:51.029 --> 00:12:56.557 media overload. Uh, that you can watch too much tv or you can too many TVs 00:12:56.590 --> 00:13:00.337 on at the same time and radios itself and that, uh, I think what really 00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:05.866 happens and uh, Marshall McLuhan has, has done some, some studies on this. 00:13:05.899 --> 00:13:10.746 Um, there is no such thing as media overload. When it comes to people. In 00:13:10.779 --> 00:13:14.766 other words, machines overload. People don't overload. Uh, what happens if 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:17.427 you happen to be watching a multimedia show or two or three movies at the 00:13:17.460 --> 00:13:21.246 same time or two or three stations at the same time or if you happen to be 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.057 just driving through Los Angeles on freeways very fast and happened to be 00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:28.876 very observant and you know, we're looking around a lot. Uh, what happens 00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:33.856 is, one doesn't overload. What happens is one sort of goes on to the next 00:13:33.889 --> 00:13:41.846 level one. Uh, no longer. Uh, uh, what what happens is that you almost 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:46.087 subconsciously you start going to this other gear and that other gear is a 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:50.927 kind of a pattern recognition and when you're watching television and some 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.626 in the ways that you have to watch commercial television these days. Uh, 00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:58.986 and not only are you broken up by commercials, but a lot of people keep 00:13:59.019 --> 00:14:02.846 switching the stations, I mean, and, and what happens is, and you're still 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.346 learning even though there's this little, uh, I think even more so because 00:14:06.379 --> 00:14:11.157 I think television allows you to go on to this next level of pattern 00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:15.437 recognition, which is beyond any of the, you know, sort of the, the linear 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:21.217 ways of learning. And uh, you you don't learning the way where you come up 00:14:21.250 --> 00:14:24.526 with answers or anything, but you learn in a way where you're constantly 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:30.396 turning your own mind into a almost a useful computer in a sense that 00:14:30.429 --> 00:14:36.386 you're just taking in the perceptions and you're not, uh, what, what, what 00:14:36.419 --> 00:14:40.626 television, I think what television is allowed, uh, are the younger 00:14:40.659 --> 00:14:44.636 generation to do, which, which has not really been allowed previously 00:14:44.669 --> 00:14:48.697 because of such linear inequalities to the arts and to ever enter the 00:14:48.730 --> 00:14:55.067 cities and everything. And when television has allowed as a kind of a um, 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:58.236 just perceptive in other words, you watch it and you get this perception 00:14:58.269 --> 00:15:01.337 and that perception. I don't think television really deals with concepts. 00:15:01.370 --> 00:15:04.797 I think it's alien to that media. I don't think the city of today, the 00:15:04.830 --> 00:15:10.246 20th century city, Los Angeles Houston or whatever. Uh, Las Vegas. Uh, I 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:16.476 don't, uh, it's the same kind of, it's the same sort of kind of thing. 00:15:16.509 --> 00:15:19.396 You're kind of, they're not concepts. I mean, Los Angeles is not a 00:15:19.429 --> 00:15:24.746 concept. There are some 19th century cities that are concepts what what 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.297 McLuhan says, which is kind of interesting, which, I've been very much 00:15:27.330 --> 00:15:32.807 influenced by lately, is that uh is that concepts really aren't, they 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:37.437 don't do you much good these days because everything is going so fast that 00:15:37.470 --> 00:15:40.547 by the time you've really formulated a concept on something has changed, 00:15:40.580 --> 00:15:43.907 the world has changed, it changes too fast. And that really the way to 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:48.287 learn the way to perceive the environment, The media uh hesitation is a 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:53.297 kind of uh you don't even try to make up concepts, you just take these 00:15:53.330 --> 00:15:59.177 perception that they eventually, if you've taken enough and you have to 00:15:59.210 --> 00:16:02.057 take them without making any judgments, you just have to look at them and 00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:06.636 then they will become patterns. And I think the media as well as the 20th 00:16:06.669 --> 00:16:11.256 century city, whether it's american or not, I think is really allowing us 00:16:11.289 --> 00:16:17.976 to learn in a whole different way and to make more kind of intuitive uh to 00:16:18.009 --> 00:16:21.366 relate to things more intuitively rather than kind of intellectually 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:25.476 conceptually uh putting together concepts take too long and it is not 00:16:25.509 --> 00:16:29.006 valid by the time you figure it out. And that I think that that's uh that 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.596 the city can teach us and the media can teach us about this sort of this 00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:36.787 other level of thinking. And I think it's this is the kind of thinking uh 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:40.126 that I think will get us into the future and if we're not able to think if 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:44.976 we're not able to flow with uh the processes that we can, you know like 00:16:45.009 --> 00:16:49.366 that the media presents us with the the contemporary city, then we won't 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:52.427 get to the next century and that and that the way we're gonna get there is 00:16:52.460 --> 00:16:56.057 just letting it happen for a while and just letting it through and and and 00:16:56.090 --> 00:16:58.646 taking these perceptions and eventually it will turn into something. I 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:03.856 think I feel positive. That's the problem. I think many of us faces. We 00:17:03.889 --> 00:17:08.687 have really at least in many cases I know I have gone through that process. 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.766 I've tried the just general wash, I sat there and had a wonderful time 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:17.157 being passive and uh went through it all, watched the whole thing, tried 00:17:17.190 --> 00:17:21.256 the experiences, having sat there and I've done it for a good long time. 00:17:21.289 --> 00:17:24.947 You know what? I'm bloody bored. I'm tired really of just sitting there 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:29.207 being a passive animal watching it all going with the flow. I really am. 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.736 I'm tired of it because I feel that it is not humanly satisfying to me as 00:17:32.769 --> 00:17:36.657 an animal as I exist. I haven't yet learned how to become a computer. I 00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:41.516 have not yet learned to become the machine that this man at Columbia says 00:17:41.549 --> 00:17:44.947 there's probably an ideal state. And you think that the world in general 00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:48.207 has reached that point? Don't you think this active interest in sports is 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:53.306 an example of something which is far beyond you. Why why sports? Why 00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:57.316 particularly sports? You know what I mean? Is that the world seemed to 00:17:57.349 --> 00:18:03.326 enjoy passive uh huh activities for quite some time. And suddenly the 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.796 interest in running and tennis and all these other things seems to 00:18:06.829 --> 00:18:11.566 indicate a change. Well it's for several reasons obviously it's also a 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.107 kind of a biofeedback of a kind I mean you feel something by running, you 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:17.736 go through all these things, you feel all these things and it's all, it's 00:18:17.769 --> 00:18:22.197 still a very private experience. But there are also communal experiences 00:18:22.230 --> 00:18:25.397 that can be had and can be continued to be having. One of the fact that 00:18:25.430 --> 00:18:28.357 we're all sitting here means I suppose you're looking for someone and 00:18:28.390 --> 00:18:31.786 you're looking for one kind of communal experience that we're all to be 00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:36.006 here to have. But we have, we have communal experiences with television. I 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.756 mean I haven't said it is not possible and I still love television, I love 00:18:39.789 --> 00:18:45.336 it for what it can do. I, first of all I have to sit there and I uh I was 00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:48.367 robbed a couple of times and recently the insurance man was very kind and 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.457 gave me enough money for a first rate television. So I got a beautiful 00:18:51.490 --> 00:18:55.347 Sony at home and it makes absolutely wonderful pictures and I must say I 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:58.996 have to get over. I mean the jewel like the clarity is gorgeous. I sit 00:18:59.029 --> 00:19:02.167 there and all the technological marvel that's right in front of my room 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:05.046 there and I keep thinking what director I have to watch in order to watch 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.917 these beautiful pictures and and I've seen so many things and and you're 00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:13.016 dealing now with with, you know, what person who's immersed himself from 00:19:13.049 --> 00:19:16.336 having never had television from sort of hating it from growing up as a 00:19:16.369 --> 00:19:19.306 musician. Where the point I had really spent all those early years of my 00:19:19.339 --> 00:19:24.246 life practicing and composing and being involved with an entirely 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:28.397 different kind of of wash kind of wash of a constant music going through 00:19:28.430 --> 00:19:32.207 the head, which is what is still my first experience. My basic language 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:36.336 will always be music. I'm a musician, I'm a born and bred musician, but 00:19:36.369 --> 00:19:41.917 I'm fascinated by the time uh, relations in television because in that way 00:19:41.950 --> 00:19:45.756 do are alike music in what's happened to music because of the fact that 00:19:45.789 --> 00:19:48.957 you're dealing with this fragmentary experience. And what I'm saying now 00:19:48.990 --> 00:19:52.427 is is there any way we can deal now with the body politic in some of the 00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:57.467 kind of way, the ultimate um, ultimate experience to me for television. I 00:19:57.500 --> 00:20:00.107 don't know, I come back to television a lot, but it does happen to do that 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:04.576 is I sort of metaphor come up with, Here we are in a five ft square room, 00:20:04.609 --> 00:20:09.056 five ft tall, five ft wide, five ft high, five, everything. And in front 00:20:09.089 --> 00:20:12.806 of this one man sitting in that tiny room is a television and he is there 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:18.336 by himself and all through the building is more little cubicles, very much 00:20:18.369 --> 00:20:21.957 with the same kind of people. It can also have a very private quality, 00:20:21.990 --> 00:20:25.347 intends to turn us back into single people again, a runner runs really by 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:30.387 himself, although he may do so in a marathon. What I, what I miss, maybe 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:34.236 it's very old fashioned of me is the great communal experiences I remember 00:20:34.269 --> 00:20:38.336 as a musician, the moments where I was there in an audience or there is a 00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:41.256 musician dealing with a large number of people where we could find a 00:20:41.289 --> 00:20:45.467 certain kind of commonality among us as people. I feel this is an 00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:48.707 important kind of thing. How can we do this? Still dealing with the 00:20:48.740 --> 00:20:53.486 explanations of our our perception that the television can bring, we can 00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:57.336 juxtapose now, we can make terrific jumps, we can be elliptical the way 00:20:57.369 --> 00:21:00.246 that we couldn't be with the older art, and I still think that it is 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.336 possible to do without having to deal with being old fashioned about it. I 00:21:04.369 --> 00:21:08.336 don't have to tell the story in the complete way, might have Once I do, we 00:21:08.369 --> 00:21:11.826 keep talking about media as if it were only television. I think we can be 00:21:11.859 --> 00:21:16.357 very free to regard the various arts as media and to look at what's 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:21.177 happening there. And I think one of the things television has done and all 00:21:21.210 --> 00:21:25.476 the discussion of television is, has gotten us to regard many, many things 00:21:25.509 --> 00:21:31.397 as media as uh, conduits from one point to another point that we never 00:21:31.430 --> 00:21:35.266 would have before, and certain things are happening. People have begun to 00:21:35.299 --> 00:21:40.907 be interested in and to demand some kind of ideal, some kind of sense of 00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:45.397 purpose from art, from architecture, from writing. There's a man I wanted 00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:51.907 to read a few quotes who just wrote a book on fiction called john Gardner. 00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:57.867 He's a reasonably well known novelist and he's come out very strongly 00:21:57.900 --> 00:22:03.016 against the fiction that's been written essentially Post war in America is 00:22:03.049 --> 00:22:09.107 being formalistic as being self indulgent. Um 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:14.157 and and he makes some claims for what are specifically novels, but any 00:22:14.190 --> 00:22:18.526 kind of art has to be as a media, which I think one is beginning to see in 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.506 architecture as well and therefore interesting. He says it reasonably well. 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:27.276 All those criticisms of other novelists may be self serving, but I wanted 00:22:27.309 --> 00:22:31.107 to read a couple of art is essentially, 00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:35.147 I don't know if I can complete it. Art is essentially serious and 00:22:35.180 --> 00:22:40.796 beneficial. A game played against chaos and death. Art builds temporary 00:22:40.829 --> 00:22:45.806 walls against life's leveling force the ruin of what is splendidly 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:51.457 unnatural in us consciousness. A good book is one that for its time is 00:22:51.490 --> 00:22:56.707 wise saying and magical. One that clarifies life intends to improve it to 00:22:56.740 --> 00:23:00.526 art treats ideals, affirming and clarifying the good, the true and the 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:05.887 beautiful true art establishes models of human action cast net towards the 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:10.326 future carefully. Judges are right and wrong directions, celebrates and 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:15.207 mourns, it does not rant. It does not sneer or giggle in the face of death. 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:19.707 It invents prayers and weapons. It designs visions worth trying to make, 00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:23.617 fact. It does not whimper or cower or throw up its hands and bad. It's 00:23:23.650 --> 00:23:27.996 lashes. I think these are claims for the media of novels that wouldn't 00:23:28.029 --> 00:23:31.556 have been made 15 years ago and I think the same kind of thing we're 00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:34.697 seeing in architecture. We're talking about architecture that has meaning 00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:39.786 that puts forth social ideals, that puts forth political ideals, that 00:23:39.819 --> 00:23:43.957 enlarges the human being frank Gehry's work in Los Angeles. The Ron Davis 00:23:43.990 --> 00:23:48.857 House is probably the best known plays with one's perception, so as to 00:23:48.890 --> 00:23:53.486 make one much more aware of what one is looking at and how your eyes work 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:58.107 and what kinds of things we understand and that's just the barest level. 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:03.707 Um, jenks in an architecture ever compete with television to do what 00:24:03.740 --> 00:24:06.667 you're saying. It's impossible. It doesn't have the range of colors that 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:09.907 doesn't have. I mean, once in a while, an architect may do something, I 00:24:09.940 --> 00:24:16.107 don't see why we need to think in militaristic terms of competition. 00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:21.296 I don't need it. All I really want to do is to find out what we're, what's 00:24:21.329 --> 00:24:24.607 happening to us in the process of what these wonderful things we've 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:29.226 invented, uh, what they do, what they're doing to us, what we can do. Then 00:24:29.259 --> 00:24:32.947 wait a second. You portrayed the person watching television is this 00:24:32.980 --> 00:24:37.397 passive person in front of this box all by all by himself. Actually, this 00:24:37.430 --> 00:24:41.566 person watching television is joined by about 25 million other people at 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.756 the same time, which is a rarity in history anyway. To begin with, he's 00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:48.147 not really by himself on one level, but the main point I want to make 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:51.957 right now is that the fact is the person who sits and watches television 00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:55.256 passively is the person that will go through life and do everything 00:24:55.289 --> 00:24:58.056 passively. Whether he's in school, whether he's in church, whether, I mean 00:24:58.089 --> 00:25:01.967 , a passive person will be passive, no matter what, in what environment he 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:05.207 is in. And that I think there are a lot of people who watch television. I 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:10.816 mean, like I do, and I mean, I'm not against passivity, I'm I'm not making 00:25:10.849 --> 00:25:14.056 any value judgments, I just want to know what it is, it's happening to us 00:25:14.089 --> 00:25:18.607 . I mean, I don't want to deal with it in that kind of way in saying that 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:21.867 this is wrong, this is right. The ultimate horror would be that we would 00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.076 become sort of cut off that even if they're 25 million people watching the 00:25:25.109 --> 00:25:28.897 same television show and we're all by ourselves doing it. We are still by 00:25:28.930 --> 00:25:32.657 ourselves and the whole situation of us with other human beings in 00:25:32.690 --> 00:25:37.526 proximity, which is a very natural state for human beings to be in. It's 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:40.637 maybe even that's debatable. I wanted to interrupt for one second 00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:45.417 throughout a real big five letter word. Um, truth. And uh there was 00:25:45.450 --> 00:25:49.347 something before in the theological stuff where they were talking about 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:52.066 understanding the past. And someone even suggested understanding the 00:25:52.099 --> 00:25:56.107 present as being an important thing to get us to the future. Uh to me 00:25:56.140 --> 00:25:59.226 understanding the uh spend a little time trying to understand the past. 00:25:59.259 --> 00:26:02.516 And I don't know if I totally understand it, but I've spent a lot of time 00:26:02.549 --> 00:26:06.246 very recently in the last 10 years. I'm trying to understand the present. 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:13.197 Um one of the things that Louis Kahn once said um was L. A. Is truth 00:26:13.230 --> 00:26:17.447 whether you like it or not. And I went around for a few years trying to 00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:22.467 figure out what he meant by that. Um I got a little help from woman who 00:26:22.500 --> 00:26:25.717 used to be associated with him in some ways. And he said that louis Kahn's 00:26:25.750 --> 00:26:30.887 definition of truth was that people are truth. And uh I imagined after a 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:36.447 while that that what he meant by L. A. Is being truth is that um is that L. 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.607 A. Is a kind of an environment, a city where people can express 00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:43.046 themselves individually. They can drive any color car. They want any where 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:46.347 any color clothes, they can live in any color house they want. I mean and 00:26:46.380 --> 00:26:49.086 it's not just colors. I mean whatever their style or whatever it is they 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:52.476 can they can do it. So it's kind of the truth sort of hangs out. It looks 00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:56.266 a little crazy, Looks a little eclectic uh in some ways. You know, you 00:26:56.299 --> 00:27:00.957 have to say that I'm wearing this shirt as a joke that almost abc is truth 00:27:00.990 --> 00:27:04.326 because more millions and millions and millions and millions of people are 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:08.197 watching abc than than the other things. And there's a kind of, I think 00:27:08.230 --> 00:27:12.847 what I feel that I have to deal with is that sudden the sudden recognition 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:17.127 that you know, maybe people are truth and if they like the what happy days 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:22.476 , the Virgin Shirley and what's the third big one? Uh you know, uh there's 00:27:22.509 --> 00:27:24.617 something, there's gotta be something there. I mean you can't just say, 00:27:24.650 --> 00:27:28.226 okay that's dumb stuff and people are dumb and forget about it. I mean, 00:27:28.259 --> 00:27:32.137 someone has to really understand what is that phenomenon and what is 00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:35.447 bringing people together? And I think we agree with that. I mean, I mean I 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.506 haven't automatically made a value judgment nor do I think a lot of other 00:27:38.539 --> 00:27:43.217 people or or a city where where like like L. A. Is like television. I mean 00:27:43.250 --> 00:27:46.137 where people are, you know, they're they're really doing what they really 00:27:46.170 --> 00:27:51.127 want to do uh as architects or musicians, How do we help or help these 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:54.226 people grow and where they're living in L. A. Or how do we help them watch 00:27:54.259 --> 00:27:58.316 television? But I think that for me, I mean that's a given L. A. Is a 00:27:58.349 --> 00:28:02.367 given and television is a given and you know, I don't think of either one 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.967 as being particularly good or bad when it comes to true that doesn't come 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:09.177 to good or bad, it's just true, it's what is, you know, and uh you know, I 00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:13.766 think there I think that what is the problem and that's dealing with what 00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:18.607 is the secret to integrating at all and no one's really begun to deal with 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.826 what is and that's I think the basic point, I don't think that we're in a 00:28:22.859 --> 00:28:26.197 good in any terrible disagreement about that. I mean, I don't think it's 00:28:26.230 --> 00:28:29.427 automatically right, for example, to assume that uh that commercial 00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:31.947 television and what might be considered its worst quote unquote 00:28:31.980 --> 00:28:36.387 manifestations is any worse, so to speak than uh public tv. I fact 00:28:36.420 --> 00:28:39.286 actually I have more of a brief against the public tv than I have the 00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:42.677 other. For the obvious reason, I feel that I think was made a terrific 00:28:42.710 --> 00:28:46.437 mistake about the nature of television. And also I think tends to have at 00:28:46.470 --> 00:28:49.336 least in my experiences that I've had it. I mean I've had quite a bit of 00:28:49.369 --> 00:28:53.796 work with public tv is that uh it tends to, you know, this allows some of 00:28:53.829 --> 00:28:57.236 the basic nature of the medium, such as the need that we all have when 00:28:57.269 --> 00:29:00.917 we're on in our own home to take breaks, to move around to take care of 00:29:00.950 --> 00:29:04.207 other kind of things, even to move our bodies if you're sitting in a room 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:08.447 with a group of other people and you are in the throes of the say 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:11.056 something like the ST Matthew passion and you're sitting there for four 00:29:11.089 --> 00:29:14.276 hours, you may want to go to the bathroom, but you forget about it because 00:29:14.309 --> 00:29:17.397 you're obviously in some of the kind of thing, one of the things that hold 00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:21.016 you there and as strong as it does is the presence of thousands of other 00:29:21.049 --> 00:29:24.336 people around you and they are feeling something of the same kind of 00:29:24.369 --> 00:29:27.986 things you are, there are also the hundreds of people up on stage helping 00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:32.107 the whole thing happened and the overall incredibly moving experience that 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:37.387 this can become and when this has denied us for too long a time, there is 00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:42.167 a very strong uh and important and in violent part of the human being, 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:46.117 which is, which is being ignored and being atrophied and I don't lament it 00:29:46.150 --> 00:29:49.576 necessarily because I don't think we can go back to the ST Matthew passion 00:29:49.609 --> 00:29:53.756 , I think we've become another kind of person, but I do know we're able to 00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:57.066 sustain a long kind of thing. People go to football games and just as long 00:29:57.099 --> 00:30:00.627 as the ST Matthew passion, there's no problem with that, they seem to stay 00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:04.266 with that. But what I'm saying is that what I need and I think we all need 00:30:04.299 --> 00:30:07.597 is a sense of greater flexibility in all of the different things and that 00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:10.687 comes from understanding which each one of these media are, I think you're 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.707 right in saying that each one of them is a medium that we have a concert 00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:17.576 medium, a rock concert medium, the classical concert medium, we have 00:30:17.609 --> 00:30:21.326 medium of going to a gallery and watching what painters are doing with the 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:24.397 medium of going into a house and seeing what's been done there, all these 00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:29.036 different media. And what what can happen is that the problem with 00:30:29.069 --> 00:30:33.167 television is that for a very large number of people there has been a 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.556 tendency, I think, to be only able to understand the world around them in 00:30:37.589 --> 00:30:42.806 terms of the very fragmented nature of that medium. 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.607 I don't have much else to say about this. 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:49.266 He said, I want to say that I'm very jealous of the fact that you're a 00:30:49.299 --> 00:30:53.857 musician somehow. Music is the one art that somehow works can work 00:30:53.890 --> 00:30:57.437 anywhere anytime. It can fit in anywhere anytime. But, you know, like, 00:30:57.470 --> 00:31:00.147 let's say, an artist who does a painting or sculpture or something, I mean 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:03.816 , it's a tremendous amount of problem for him to put that anywhere. And 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:08.377 somehow music so easily fits everywhere anytime any age, any, you know, 00:31:08.410 --> 00:31:11.756 it's sort of this really special medium that somehow has always worked and 00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:14.897 will always work and it will always be loved. It means more almost than 00:31:14.930 --> 00:31:17.847 any other medium. You know, there's something very special about music. 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:20.707 How does it stand? I mean, it comes up sometimes you must know what I'm 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:23.486 talking about a little bit and it's there's something so special about 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.147 music that none of the other arts have ever gotten to that point. Is it 00:31:26.180 --> 00:31:30.137 impossible? It's just music? I mean, that man is certainly through music 00:31:30.170 --> 00:31:37.086 has hit as high as, you know, creative, you know, levels and most, I mean 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:39.776 , I think 00:31:39.809 --> 00:31:44.437 Beethoven sport says all right, it's it's very clear in art and 00:31:44.470 --> 00:31:48.617 architecture and literature and film, which I pay most attention to the 00:31:48.650 --> 00:31:52.726 kinds of new demands about what we want. The reaction against abstraction 00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:59.197 or abstraction in its own as anything but a tool as an end. Is there some 00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:03.276 parallel development in music? Does that make any sense in musical terms? 00:32:03.309 --> 00:32:07.697 The reaction against what became a sort of a very strong, abstract 00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:10.786 ification of our own medium? Yes, there has been in fact, it's very 00:32:10.819 --> 00:32:14.506 similar in a lot of ways. I think this comes from the fact that uh I 00:32:14.539 --> 00:32:18.016 suppose you could say the same certainly is true. And the biggest 00:32:18.049 --> 00:32:22.707 revolutionary changes in architecture and in music and in painting, we're 00:32:22.740 --> 00:32:26.707 all just about 1910, 15, 20. Right? I mean, there was a certain kind of 00:32:26.740 --> 00:32:30.546 period in there. Yeah. But you know, and you know, that, you know, and 00:32:30.579 --> 00:32:33.667 before the First World War and after it, to and around that time, That was 00:32:33.700 --> 00:32:36.336 where there was a terrific need, I think, to break down a lot of other the 00:32:36.369 --> 00:32:39.647 norms of society, we couldn't continue with the 19th century concept, as 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:43.006 David has pointed out. So there was a need to try to deal with all kinds 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.877 of fragmentation. Most of it was very analytical, I think in certain ways 00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:49.917 it was beginning to look at different things which we had only considered 00:32:49.950 --> 00:32:53.496 as part of a bigger picture. And somehow re if either looking to them as 00:32:53.529 --> 00:32:57.177 as as separate elements to be understood in other ways than one. And 00:32:57.210 --> 00:32:59.957 certainly this happened with music, we began to want to deal with in that 00:32:59.990 --> 00:33:05.947 particular language, tonality, which is to say key centers. That was a 00:33:05.980 --> 00:33:10.377 very determinist thing, particularly uh in the day of Mozart, where 00:33:10.410 --> 00:33:14.836 everybody knows exactly where the key is, when you've been away from it, 00:33:14.869 --> 00:33:18.046 when you're coming back to it. Mother have come back to you at the end of 00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.786 the piece. You know, you always do finish the piece the same key, you 00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:23.677 started it. There's a structure that's built on that whole kind of key 00:33:23.710 --> 00:33:27.016 plan, there is a whole sense of gravity involved, which is something that 00:33:27.049 --> 00:33:33.286 is absolutely perceptible to any western ears. Even in the eastern music, 00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:37.736 there is also certain scale tones which are considered home and there is, 00:33:37.769 --> 00:33:41.336 in other words, a sense of home and away. And this was of course very 00:33:41.369 --> 00:33:45.286 essential to the whole basic musical thing. Um and there was a need to 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:47.927 think around that particular time to break all this down to say what 00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:50.927 should we do about deciding each one of these key centers could be 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.967 considered equally. The whole uh effort by Arnold Schoenberg was not to 00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:59.707 destroy tonality, but to unify all 12 possible tonalities into an area in 00:33:59.740 --> 00:34:02.887 which there were no no home, that they were all home, but there was no 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.207 sense of gravity, there was no sense of away and home, that it was all 00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.416 really home all the time and that really understanding here of this 00:34:10.449 --> 00:34:14.157 particular uh idiom would be immediately to the point where you're talking 00:34:14.190 --> 00:34:18.126 about uh you know, perceiving patterns particularly well, patterns was 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.537 really where our ears began to concept, We didn't know we began to deal 00:34:21.570 --> 00:34:25.387 with and there was a kind of a surface level of basic kind of things. And 00:34:25.420 --> 00:34:28.367 this of course, is what happened to us and eventually out of this, if it 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:30.626 began to look at the pattern hard enough, you might be able to extrapolate 00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:35.836 the whole little title thing. Whereas a classical music here, one that was 00:34:35.869 --> 00:34:39.356 built in the 19th century or the late 18th century would be first 00:34:39.389 --> 00:34:43.807 articulating the structure and the parts of the structure inside of that 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.967 structure. This is interesting what you say, why is it that music is the 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:51.267 only art where people can just let the patterns come in not make judgments 00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:55.166 with every note every little bit when it comes to a visual thing, there, 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.626 every little thing is a judgment or something, because actually you just 00:34:58.659 --> 00:35:01.086 sit back and you can let it come in and I think you're talking about 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:04.077 yourself, I think as a musician, I look I listen to music in quite a 00:35:04.110 --> 00:35:09.157 different way I listened to uh I'm sure you're much more visual person and 00:35:09.190 --> 00:35:12.296 uh and I'm sure that you look at visual things more structurally perhaps 00:35:12.329 --> 00:35:16.106 than I do. But I've looked at music structurally because of my training, 00:35:16.139 --> 00:35:18.677 because my orientation, because I think in the language of music and 00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:22.787 eventually anyone who creates creates in it does think in these overall 00:35:22.820 --> 00:35:25.967 structures. Doesn't think I'm purely on a single moment of what I can do 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.807 between this measure and that measure. I just I listen to where the 00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.537 drummers out there who was able to place against a four beat, three beat 00:35:32.570 --> 00:35:35.227 in an eight beat in the free beat against that. And then of course, 00:35:35.260 --> 00:35:39.137 structurally interesting on a momentary basis. Now, the next interesting 00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:42.706 part is what makes him a good musician as he was able to structure the 00:35:42.739 --> 00:35:47.847 whole soul from beginning to the end. So that the idea continued to have 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:51.546 extra ramifications. You began variant, he began to have a go to a kind of 00:35:51.579 --> 00:35:55.617 a strong upward building kind of shape. And these are the things that 00:35:55.650 --> 00:35:58.617 there was given more than just that moment. If we're just the pattern of 00:35:58.650 --> 00:36:01.467 the four versus against the three against the eight against the free 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:05.097 pattern, it would soon loses interest. It's got to have some sort of out 00:36:05.130 --> 00:36:08.947 overall kind of shape, before it becomes coherent along kind of sense. So 00:36:08.980 --> 00:36:12.577 , in the process, you're asking about the abstractions that happened to us 00:36:12.610 --> 00:36:17.347 ? Well, these I think a lot of it came from at least in the case of music 00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:22.597 from the various wars this morning. Mhm. Several people mentioned, I think 00:36:22.630 --> 00:36:28.037 it was Bill Thompson was talking about Wagner as one of the, you know, 00:36:28.070 --> 00:36:32.477 kind of the ultimate example of the overwhelmingly proud artist. The one 00:36:32.510 --> 00:36:37.217 who was so in love with this medium was so able to to create an 00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:41.447 overwhelming kind of masterpiece in it, that you could be swept away in it. 00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:46.646 And we saw a case of the whole country which is metaphorically, became 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:49.407 sort of going down in the voluntary and get your game room having built 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.477 almost its own structure on the same kind of pride in the same kind of 00:36:53.510 --> 00:36:57.376 thing I'm talking about the third Reich of course, but um this is of 00:36:57.409 --> 00:37:04.697 course in europe had cataclysmic effects. Both wars asked of the people 00:37:04.730 --> 00:37:09.126 actually in the way to war the old culture against the new culture, the 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:14.256 older attitudes against what was clearly happening and these of course, 00:37:14.289 --> 00:37:17.967 happened to be terrible cataclysms in both cases. So, the need after each 00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.847 war would be to start to break new ground. The one difference between 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:25.677 probably what happened in architecture and art on one hand, and what 00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:28.517 happened in music? on the other hand now of course they're exceptions 00:37:28.550 --> 00:37:34.577 Picasso is that after the war after all of the really mind boggling wild 00:37:34.610 --> 00:37:37.247 things that happened in the team's. I'm talking to the rite of spring in 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:42.916 1913 the you know Pierrot lunaire, all of the new ways of looking at music. 00:37:42.949 --> 00:37:45.977 Now we find Ives Fourth Symphony which was written all of these works 00:37:46.010 --> 00:37:50.956 before the First World War, before the Great cataclysms After the war 00:37:50.989 --> 00:37:53.856 there was a terrific the First World War and I'm talking about a terrific 00:37:53.889 --> 00:37:57.856 return toward neoclassicism. I need to re articulate the forms of the past 00:37:57.889 --> 00:38:01.876 and need to go back to a Baroque era. Need to try to sound like bach or 00:38:01.909 --> 00:38:05.537 like Mozart. I need to try to find a simple straight kind of thing which 00:38:05.570 --> 00:38:09.367 is I think is different in that way from what had happened to you. I was 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.267 just wondering whether with half an hour left we wanted to open up the 00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:15.217 discussion to the audience. I'd love to see that. Have you things to say 00:38:15.250 --> 00:38:19.986 please. I'm tired of talking 00:38:20.019 --> 00:38:26.586 little hard with this drum solo going on. 00:38:26.619 --> 00:38:34.619 No awards or a question questions anything. Yes. Mhm. Don't you come up 00:38:35.670 --> 00:38:43.670 here? I'm sorry to make you get up. But I mean as always right I just 00:38:43.690 --> 00:38:50.287 would like to know how you feel about media being. 00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:57.517 Well I tend to agree with you that most of the T. V. Is sort of wasted And 00:38:57.550 --> 00:39:02.307 I'd like to see if people are getting to the point where they're starting 00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:08.407 to feel like the environment that tv needs to be cleaned up and I'll use 00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:15.186 more productively and being cleaned up. Well I like it when it's dirty and 00:39:15.219 --> 00:39:20.227 messy and all over the place. I love that messiness. But no I think what I 00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:25.977 want to see is a greater extending robbers win. Is this what you like it 00:39:26.010 --> 00:39:29.637 when the robbers win? I don't care about the robbers and the cups. I mean 00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:33.827 I would like to see other things on tv. Then then then then then the 00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:37.227 unimaginative myths of a lot of it. And I see the same thing happening in 00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:42.456 in in uh you know people talk about the violence and tv. Well and of 00:39:42.489 --> 00:39:46.066 course there's violence in the movies last night I saw before I saw carry 00:39:46.099 --> 00:39:48.666 on tv that's about a violent as in the movie I don't ever want to see I 00:39:48.699 --> 00:39:51.967 don't think I don't see another all that blood and gore all over the floor. 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.637 Well I think it's a lack of imagination probably because I have to fill 00:39:55.670 --> 00:39:59.597 the media. It's a voracious animal. You have to get on that darn thing 24 00:39:59.630 --> 00:40:02.776 hours a day, seven days a week. They have to keep thinking of something 00:40:02.809 --> 00:40:09.776 they all seem to come to that. Why? 00:40:09.809 --> 00:40:13.767 Yeah I'm less interested in other words on the effect on the on the 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:18.347 audience. I think the audience gets quickly inured to violence. What I'm 00:40:18.380 --> 00:40:22.307 interested in is in the practicing artists and tv people and nothing like 00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:27.867 that. We're making all of that violence. So, well, I'm talking more about 00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:30.276 , 00:40:30.309 --> 00:40:35.267 I'm talking in fact that, you know, like artists don't have any control. 00:40:35.300 --> 00:40:37.677 It's basically, 00:40:37.710 --> 00:40:43.376 you know, the advertising agencies and all the money that 00:40:43.409 --> 00:40:46.376 pays for the 00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:50.376 the commercials. What do they want it? 00:40:50.409 --> 00:40:55.477 I'm sorry. I didn't catch that. What do you want? Why do they want that? 00:40:55.510 --> 00:41:03.510 That's a possible corruption. That's fine. I want to hear that. 00:41:05.710 --> 00:41:13.710 What is it you said? Well, I'm saying, 00:41:15.309 --> 00:41:21.577 Yeah. 00:41:21.610 --> 00:41:24.077 Mhm. 00:41:24.110 --> 00:41:27.177 Mhm. 00:41:27.210 --> 00:41:30.376 Okay. 00:41:30.409 --> 00:41:38.409 Yeah, it sounds like the wind up to me. It was what I'm saying is uh, 00:41:39.809 --> 00:41:44.717 whether, you know, they were, there ought to be some kind of a concerted 00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:52.750 effort by people too do something more creative with television rather 00:41:52.889 --> 00:42:00.467 than just leaving it, like in the private domain. I'm saying, uh, is that 00:42:00.500 --> 00:42:06.887 potential for using it much more creatively as far as I'm concerned? I 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:12.706 think it's right now, it's it's evolving to the point where, you know, 00:42:12.739 --> 00:42:15.307 it's like the environment is going to be run down to the point where 00:42:15.340 --> 00:42:19.776 people are just gonna have to take it over. But I'm saying why why do we 00:42:19.809 --> 00:42:25.166 have to wait until the environment it's destroyed before you start doing 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:30.347 something about it. I think one of the myths we have is the idea of an art 00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:36.217 form which serves some vague public interest as opposed to an art form 00:42:36.250 --> 00:42:39.986 which serves some monetary or political or religious interest. And I don't 00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:45.717 think you can really find any moment in history where artists in fact had 00:42:45.750 --> 00:42:51.046 any kind of control over what was being done. And I think that's something 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:55.736 we pretend happened that we need to get back to. But even when they are 00:42:55.769 --> 00:42:59.686 successful, like for instance in music, the Beatles were so successful in 00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:03.686 controlling the whole world in a way and changing the whole world. I mean 00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.316 their music was, but I don't think they really did have control in other 00:43:07.349 --> 00:43:12.026 words, the artist himself. I mean maybe they had to do with marketing 00:43:12.059 --> 00:43:17.057 success. Well they also have no, no, no. I think I think the interesting 00:43:17.090 --> 00:43:20.287 thing, I think the interesting talent you know, which helped. I think the 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.637 interesting thing is on the way over here, I heard someone introducing 00:43:23.670 --> 00:43:26.577 this music thing over there and saying that the drum and the music was 00:43:26.610 --> 00:43:30.517 man's first expression. And you know, and I think that there's a very 00:43:30.550 --> 00:43:34.296 important thing happened in music which does make it so much more heavier 00:43:34.329 --> 00:43:39.247 than than a lot of the other arts. And there's uh an unmistakable rhythm 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:42.816 to music. And I think that there's that that kind of a rhythm and that 00:43:42.849 --> 00:43:46.856 rhythm can even sometimes come over on television set no matter what's on 00:43:46.889 --> 00:43:51.767 tv but that rhythm can start happening, it affects you. and and that and 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:56.787 it's it's how does architecture get that rhythm, you know, make people 00:43:56.820 --> 00:44:00.486 feel that kind of basic rhythm that they want to be part of. And I think, 00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:03.756 you know, it comes down to rhythm in a way. And how does how do the arts 00:44:03.789 --> 00:44:06.706 relate to rhythm? And I think, I think maybe they don't, and that's maybe 00:44:06.739 --> 00:44:10.767 one of the problems that and man needs rhythm in a way. That's what I'm 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:13.057 saying. 00:44:13.090 --> 00:44:17.057 Well, rhythm isn't all there is to music. 00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:20.456 There are other things that are in music to basically it's some kind of 00:44:20.489 --> 00:44:24.617 organization of sound are all different kinds of for curtain, you know, if 00:44:24.650 --> 00:44:28.467 somebody is out playing a flute out by himself without a drum behind it is 00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:32.816 also music when you're whistling to yourself, salsa music. There were also 00:44:32.849 --> 00:44:36.997 uh in the after the Second World War where there was a need again talking 00:44:37.030 --> 00:44:42.086 about the the whole need to say goodbye to a whole part of european 00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.767 culture which has brought them to this terrible, terrible moment. There 00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:49.347 was a need at that particular point to destroy at least try to reinvent 00:44:49.380 --> 00:44:54.497 every one of the various aspects of music which became named parameters. 00:44:54.530 --> 00:44:56.936 I'm talking about the movement that was headed by people like Pierre 00:44:56.969 --> 00:45:02.117 boulez Karlheinz Stockhausen and others where the whole basic kind of 00:45:02.150 --> 00:45:06.836 rhythmically predictable kind of set, which had been so much part of music 00:45:06.869 --> 00:45:10.796 up to that particular time was also called in question. So all of a sudden 00:45:10.829 --> 00:45:14.356 there were as needs of trying to organize lengths of notes into all kinds 00:45:14.389 --> 00:45:19.626 of uh outwardly, you know, unwritten all kinds of ways. There were needs 00:45:19.659 --> 00:45:23.836 of dealing with different kinds of sounds in some kind of a free and kind 00:45:23.869 --> 00:45:27.367 of way to get away from the old, predictable kind of impulse is what 00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:29.736 you're talking about about the rhythm is you're talking about the rhythm 00:45:29.769 --> 00:45:32.677 that's been prevalent in popular music? No, no, I'm not talking about beat 00:45:32.710 --> 00:45:36.086 , I'm not talking about, I'm talking about rhythm for instance, in the 00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:40.267 film, close encounters, there's a kind of a sound actually, the sound is 00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:43.796 totally stolen from the getty's atmospheres. And it's just one note that 00:45:43.829 --> 00:45:47.537 goes on for three minutes and they use a piece of that note. And I'm not 00:45:47.570 --> 00:45:50.916 talking about a beat. I'm talking about a rhythm, no matter if the note is 00:45:50.949 --> 00:45:54.387 four minutes long, I'm not talking about you're talking about rhythm, 00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:56.997 you're talking about events that you're talking about, a different kind of 00:45:57.030 --> 00:45:59.956 thing. You're talking about. Event followed by event by event. Now, of 00:45:59.989 --> 00:46:02.727 course, we've immediately, I mean, the one legacy of that whole particular 00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:06.977 period which lasted about maybe 15 or 20 years of what you call post war 00:46:07.010 --> 00:46:12.057 music more prominently in europe than it was here was the legacy of long 00:46:12.090 --> 00:46:14.396 held notes, The kind of sound that you're talking about in close 00:46:14.429 --> 00:46:17.427 encounters or you could find it also. And those other things of course, do 00:46:17.460 --> 00:46:21.146 you hear it through, you know Los Angeles ears. But when I hear a thing 00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:23.477 like that, I keep thinking of the source and I can't help because 00:46:23.510 --> 00:46:26.876 naturally I heard that again when it came out and it was a different kind 00:46:26.909 --> 00:46:29.006 of thing for me I heard of it is in a different kind of thing. I heard of 00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:32.477 it as musical events, an entirely different kind of way. I don't think of 00:46:32.510 --> 00:46:36.106 it as something that automatically means to be space. It has it has taken 00:46:36.139 --> 00:46:39.347 on that meaning through Hollywood. 00:46:39.380 --> 00:46:47.380 Uh 00:46:53.380 --> 00:46:58.747 Right. 00:46:58.780 --> 00:47:06.780 Mhm. 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:23.480 Mhm. 00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:56.280 Yeah. Yeah. 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:05.679 All right. Mark. 00:48:10.969 --> 00:48:13.137 Mhm. 00:48:13.170 --> 00:48:21.170 Fight. 00:48:32.469 --> 00:48:35.816 I think it's highly like that. I think video and that sort of thing lends 00:48:35.849 --> 00:48:39.436 itself to that. Again. I don't think music and architecture have to 00:48:39.469 --> 00:48:42.416 compete. I think you've made a very good case for architecture. I think 00:48:42.449 --> 00:48:45.747 music, what do they call architecture frozen music. I always wanted to 00:48:45.780 --> 00:48:50.736 know that I don't, I don't think I like frozen music melted architecture. 00:48:50.769 --> 00:48:55.296 Some of us call music melted architecture. Take another point of view on 00:48:55.329 --> 00:49:02.497 this. The architecture is what music, what they like. My music exactly 00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:06.986 what you're talking about in terms of the structure and the rhythm made 00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:11.166 into a permanent form. Architecture is supposed to have that architecture 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:17.106 always did until and some say it has to do with the philosophy of 00:49:17.139 --> 00:49:24.157 architecture. It more specifically has to do with the percentage of money 00:49:24.190 --> 00:49:28.887 of a society that goes into building. Some basic things happen. And we're 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.747 getting very nitty gritty here for a moment, but some basic things 00:49:31.780 --> 00:49:37.416 happened in architecture at some point. People started to pay workers a 00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:41.876 livable wage. This is an absolute disaster for architecture was much 00:49:41.909 --> 00:49:49.097 better for the workers music too. Um, not as crucial proportion perhaps or 00:49:49.130 --> 00:49:52.896 perhaps there is federal money and that sort of thing. It's a musician 00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:56.057 unions. There's much of a problem of integrating music into our culture. I 00:49:56.090 --> 00:49:58.706 can tell you this is true, but I think the real destruction of the large 00:49:58.739 --> 00:50:03.387 ensembles, the things where they had, the orchestra is a very great uh, 00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:07.186 you know, large numbers of orchestra of the First World War. The real age 00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:10.186 of the great Orchestra was before the First World War. The war simply 00:50:10.219 --> 00:50:14.867 killed off most of the reason why the kind of money you're talking about 00:50:14.900 --> 00:50:18.407 construction, it's even higher. And construction does not get private 00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:22.967 money given as a donation and the ball given to support the local building 00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:26.586 and the rest of that like the Lyrica. There's a lot of situations which 00:50:26.619 --> 00:50:30.227 are different in any case what is then available proportion of money 00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:35.577 available to go into things which are complicated, which is what you're 00:50:35.610 --> 00:50:39.947 talking about architecture, which is complicated, which has a funny little 00:50:39.980 --> 00:50:44.137 decorations and which has brakes, which has different materials, which is 00:50:44.170 --> 00:50:51.097 all the things that you call rhythm um became out of the question at the 00:50:51.130 --> 00:50:54.916 same time, there are certain philosophies that made abstraction, a good 00:50:54.949 --> 00:50:58.356 idea that considered color and all this sort of thing necessary for the 00:50:58.389 --> 00:51:01.566 masses. But certainly the elite didn't need this sort of thing. 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:05.367 Rationality is what was required. What's interesting now is that 00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.186 architecture has begun to get quite a bit interested in these things in 00:51:08.219 --> 00:51:12.557 detail, in the sense of human invention, the sense of experience as you 00:51:12.590 --> 00:51:17.336 move through a building, smaller scale things, things which break up the 00:51:17.369 --> 00:51:20.916 experiences you go through. But the money still isn't there and which 00:51:20.949 --> 00:51:24.916 you're getting some very interesting compromises which which begin to look 00:51:24.949 --> 00:51:28.767 ticky tacky a lot of the time because the situation is built in and it was 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:33.767 not simply a question of philosophy ever. It's quite a bit off your point 00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:38.677 , but on the way it's sort of related. I mean, what we're talking about, 00:51:38.710 --> 00:51:41.367 for example, on the street in europe, if you see one bauhaus building 00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:45.887 among uh 10 or 12 other ones that were built around the corner by the 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:48.506 belly part time when there's lots of this is very noticeable. Embarrass. 00:51:48.539 --> 00:51:52.867 For example, one or two buildings that are very modern Over capacity right 00:51:52.900 --> 00:51:56.106 next to things that were built in 1905, we have a very marvelous and 00:51:56.139 --> 00:51:59.407 natural and very shocking effect. But when you have a whole street like 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:02.396 Park Avenue all built director Lin early with lots and lots of great 00:52:02.429 --> 00:52:06.137 glasses. It is another feeling entirely. I think what happened with art 00:52:06.170 --> 00:52:08.537 music and I'm talking about art music mostly because that's what my 00:52:08.570 --> 00:52:12.407 interest was for many years, purely almost. Um we had an area in there 00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:16.756 where the very effects, I talked about the long held notes, the things 00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:19.956 that you found so spacey and close encounters, the things that are, you 00:52:19.989 --> 00:52:22.986 know, we're a whole bunch of it was a whole language is hardly ever. I 00:52:23.019 --> 00:52:26.307 never really got to us here, that hardly penetrated in a lot of ways that 00:52:26.340 --> 00:52:30.037 it did at one time in europe. I'm talking about boulez Stockhausen Berio, 00:52:30.070 --> 00:52:33.316 all these are people who were very close involved at one particular time 00:52:33.349 --> 00:52:37.717 with the kind of sound that was really supposed to say goodbye to all of 00:52:37.750 --> 00:52:42.367 the music of the past. An effort to try to start all over from scratch. 00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:46.896 Stockhausen described the Germany of after the war is a very exhilarating 00:52:46.929 --> 00:52:51.227 time. Because all of the cities which had any kind of memory of the Nazi 00:52:51.260 --> 00:52:54.367 time, early years before that were flattened there for you to start from 00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:58.217 scratch. You were forced to start from scratch. This is very exciting to 00:52:58.250 --> 00:53:00.697 it's very exciting to me. There was a sense of building now, of course, 00:53:00.730 --> 00:53:03.617 what has happened is they've built and now they're dealing with the world 00:53:03.650 --> 00:53:07.896 that they have been built and the building is no longer uh, as simple as I 00:53:07.929 --> 00:53:11.017 mean, you're dealing with the kind of stagnation there as so often happens 00:53:11.050 --> 00:53:14.126 elsewhere in our Western society because of the fact we end up with all 00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.467 these brand new cities. I remember when I used to work at the german 00:53:16.500 --> 00:53:21.307 theaters and I was doing a lot of stage music in towns like don't move a 00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:26.697 little S and Diesel Dawson like that. And I remember at times I would wake 00:53:26.730 --> 00:53:30.177 up in the hotel, we're looking outside, I would see the cow for the Kafala 00:53:30.210 --> 00:53:32.807 and I couldn't, I couldn't really remember for several minutes which town 00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:35.867 I was in. They were all so much alike because they'd all been built about 00:53:35.900 --> 00:53:39.037 the same kind of time. Well, we did end up in the words of the kind of a 00:53:39.070 --> 00:53:43.236 sort of an overall abstraction in our musical medium and art music, which 00:53:43.269 --> 00:53:46.537 made it all sound very much alike. It was kind of an international style 00:53:46.570 --> 00:53:49.546 which sort of took over at that particular point. What has happened 00:53:49.579 --> 00:53:53.327 recently, which in a way is parallel to what happened to architecture has 00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:59.577 been a greater intense interest in some of the effects of localization, 00:53:59.610 --> 00:54:03.646 popularization even certainly things I've in the last 10 years been 00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:07.887 fascinated by old historical point of view towards popular music into some 00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:10.747 sort of attempt to try to build an american musical language, which is 00:54:10.780 --> 00:54:14.307 based on some of the very simplest choices. Whether a note goes up here 00:54:14.340 --> 00:54:18.387 goes down there are things that are built almost because of uh the great 00:54:18.420 --> 00:54:22.617 songwriters or the great jasmine great rag timers. These are people who to 00:54:22.650 --> 00:54:27.206 you know, have somehow got a great deal to do with basic steps. The 1-1 00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:31.967 choices between note to note or pitch to pitch or sound to sound which are 00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:36.106 so much part of American language. So I needed to go into that and to find 00:54:36.139 --> 00:54:40.706 my own particular ability to accept the roots I had as a musician, a lot 00:54:40.739 --> 00:54:44.517 of this whole particular time was a sort of uh internationalization is 00:54:44.550 --> 00:54:51.296 sort of a need to to to to deny any of the sort of what you might call uh 00:54:51.329 --> 00:54:55.836 more local types of acculturation in our lives. Our american culture is a 00:54:55.869 --> 00:54:59.537 very universal culture already. But they were already when they were 00:54:59.570 --> 00:55:04.126 choosing those first notes are great songwriters and and jasmine and rag 00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:07.867 timers and other people. They were already making very basic choices which 00:55:07.900 --> 00:55:11.907 is which affect ours and have a great deal of do what we do on the 00:55:11.940 --> 00:55:15.177 simplest kind of level. And I think many composers now and the musicians 00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:18.597 are looking really at these basic choices. There's something very 00:55:18.630 --> 00:55:21.296 important because they have a great deal to do with who we are, what we 00:55:21.329 --> 00:55:24.916 are. We can't deny them, we can't say they're not there. We can't become 00:55:24.949 --> 00:55:28.247 internationalists. I could never be a very good boulez or burial or 00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:31.617 Stockhausen because I was born here, I didn't go through the same 00:55:31.650 --> 00:55:35.137 holocaust. They did. I didn't go through the need to destroy the culture 00:55:35.170 --> 00:55:38.327 that they might have had. I didn't go through the same kind of thing. And 00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:41.717 because of this I may be more interested because there's no there's never 00:55:41.750 --> 00:55:46.606 been any of those great big systems in my life as the roar would cause 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:50.387 That may be in a way we have the freedom to be able to put together a 00:55:50.420 --> 00:55:53.247 culture back from the past to the present. Perhaps Europe can't do right 00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:56.217 now. I see for example, in art music in Europe right now I'd rather dead 00:55:56.250 --> 00:56:00.727 end such a situation. They are still dealing with some of the problems 00:56:00.760 --> 00:56:05.477 that are inherent in the language they discovered in the 1950s. I need to 00:56:05.510 --> 00:56:08.436 stay away from rhythms. I need to stay away from any kind of recognizable 00:56:08.469 --> 00:56:12.546 musical fragments. To the point now that uh, that that also has begun to 00:56:12.579 --> 00:56:15.697 turn around in tiny circles and it begins to sound very much all the same. 00:56:15.730 --> 00:56:21.477 So here we are with a with a kind of a history. We're all immigrants were 00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:25.697 all americans because we came here through one or another means either we 00:56:25.730 --> 00:56:28.697 were brought here in chains and we were not. We still all came here and 00:56:28.730 --> 00:56:31.227 that broke something from europe. But we have made our own kind of 00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:35.186 continuity. So in a way we are carrying on another kind of longer 00:56:35.219 --> 00:56:38.206 tradition of music. Music is a growing language. Music is a language like 00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:43.956 language it contains in it, old old old sounds, old words, old meanings 00:56:43.989 --> 00:56:47.447 and it contains things that I have to be invited next last week because of 00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:51.287 need and all of these things are part of it and a whole spectrum of 00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:55.006 language, this is I'm talking myself and what I want is to be able to use 00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:59.296 the entire musical language in some very cohesive and coherent kind of way 00:56:59.329 --> 00:57:01.936 involving both the past and the present. There was the same language as I 00:57:01.969 --> 00:57:04.816 understand it in the same way as I speak. In fact I hope better than I 00:57:04.849 --> 00:57:07.896 speak 00:57:07.929 --> 00:57:15.497 other questions, questions, comments. 00:57:15.530 --> 00:57:20.287 Mhm. Listen, we're gonna ask questions. We're gonna we're gonna have a 00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:23.686 test here if there's no question yes, go right into the test period. I'm 00:57:23.719 --> 00:57:27.517 surprised for people who thought the seminar should have been on something 00:57:27.550 --> 00:57:35.550 else. Yes. Mhm. 00:57:40.630 --> 00:57:48.630 This 00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:05.887 yeah, 00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:09.986 you know, I think 00:58:10.019 --> 00:58:12.686 great. 00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:18.486 Mhm Yeah. Yes 00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:22.807 the television is our drum. It's our it's our culture's drum. I mean just 00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:30.387 like it was millions of years ago. It's just our drum, 00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:38.086 present day or yes, just a culture. 00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:43.686 Yes, yeah. Uh huh. 00:58:43.719 --> 00:58:50.887 This kind 00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:54.686 louder please. I'm sorry. 00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:58.586 Mhm 00:58:58.619 --> 00:59:04.986 Yeah, 00:59:05.019 --> 00:59:13.019 cable tv and 00:59:38.019 --> 00:59:43.477 there's also a resurgence of interest in short films and animation. Any 00:59:43.510 --> 00:59:46.796 number of also two more directly answer your question. I have been 00:59:46.829 --> 00:59:52.977 involved for some years now in the use of video to understand the 00:59:53.010 --> 00:59:56.756 environment and understand how the ecology is getting ripped off. And they 00:59:56.789 --> 01:00:00.546 have some very recent technological developments that allow for instance, 01:00:00.579 --> 01:00:05.436 time lapse video and where we've spent days and weeks and months looking 01:00:05.469 --> 01:00:10.717 at plazas and things in, in different, uh, uh, increment in the time, 01:00:10.750 --> 01:00:13.336 which was a very important thing he said at the beginning time has a very 01:00:13.369 --> 01:00:18.617 important part of understanding. And we're so, uh, in the quote real world 01:00:18.650 --> 01:00:24.177 as we go through our day. We are so, uh, 01:00:24.210 --> 01:00:29.916 you know, we have our blinders are our perception of chronological time 01:00:29.949 --> 01:00:35.557 and we can't pop out of that. We can't see it. We can't, you know, go, You 01:00:35.590 --> 01:00:38.677 know, a mile up in the air and look down a video camera and go up there 01:00:38.710 --> 01:00:42.077 and look down for us and it can show us ourselves at different time 01:00:42.110 --> 01:00:46.456 increments. I mean, for instance, if you look at a plaza 160th normal time 01:00:46.489 --> 01:00:50.856 , uh, you will get a whole different people will look like ants on one 01:00:50.889 --> 01:00:58.889 level. You change the time and feedback over and then mike, uh, 01:00:59.110 --> 01:01:03.427 he's the only feedback uh huh, which is something we, I guess we 01:01:03.460 --> 01:01:07.677 especially must come from media. Uh, one of the interesting things that uh 01:01:07.710 --> 01:01:11.697 , that marshall McLuhan says, and it's, it's the first thing we learned 01:01:11.730 --> 01:01:15.126 from media is feedback, which we're getting right now and it can teach us 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:18.427 some things. But what he suggests is that feedback is too slow, like 01:01:18.460 --> 01:01:22.157 concepts and it's already outdated and what we have to start doing is feed 01:01:22.190 --> 01:01:25.747 forward and that's that's how we're gonna get to the future is by feed 01:01:25.780 --> 01:01:31.367 forward. And and what does that mean? What does feedback? Uh Well, instead 01:01:31.400 --> 01:01:36.566 of you know, bouncing off only the past, you know, you you you after 01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:40.626 you've done enough pattern recognitions and gone under a certain level, 01:01:40.659 --> 01:01:43.816 then you can start bouncing off the future, you know, sort of feeding 01:01:43.849 --> 01:01:48.247 forward, doing doing injections. Well do doing you know, experiments for 01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:51.986 instance and stuff like that. Uh experimental in other words, 01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:54.847 experimenting in the future and bouncing off the future rather than 01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:59.316 bouncing off the past. And uh media has gotten us to that point. Well, it 01:01:59.349 --> 01:02:02.526 first taught us about feedback and now it's gonna I think hopefully it can 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:06.706 possibly get us to start feed forwarding and it sounds absolutely 01:02:06.739 --> 01:02:09.936 wonderful but I have a certain amount of trouble understanding it in any 01:02:09.969 --> 01:02:13.106 clear sort of sense. I think we've we have a wonderful, we have a 01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:17.247 wonderful language we have developed in our century to to make us feel 01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:21.166 sort of excited about what we're doing and notice that it gets more and 01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:25.776 more polysyllabic as time goes on. I mean really all I know about the 01:02:25.809 --> 01:02:30.276 future is what I'm seeing right here. This is now. It has been built some 01:02:30.309 --> 01:02:33.776 of it already is being built, there will be more of it. But if this is the 01:02:33.809 --> 01:02:36.617 shape of the future, it's not so much interestingly, but the fact that I'm 01:02:36.650 --> 01:02:40.066 seeing it right here and now he is interesting. It is obviously an effort 01:02:40.099 --> 01:02:44.066 , you know, this whole place to look at the whole thing and it was a 01:02:44.099 --> 01:02:49.276 record right here. This is you see that's where I have, I have semantics 01:02:49.309 --> 01:02:55.637 but semantics, trouble feedback. Okay, explain one thing. Uh Marshall 01:02:55.670 --> 01:02:58.376 McLuhan and his book understanding media and some other books dealt with 01:02:58.409 --> 01:03:01.057 understanding the media and there were things that we learned from the 01:03:01.090 --> 01:03:04.776 media, things that we didn't think were uh as important as other things 01:03:04.809 --> 01:03:08.026 that ended up being very important what he's going on to in the last few 01:03:08.059 --> 01:03:11.717 years. His latest book is called the city's classroom. And essentially he 01:03:11.750 --> 01:03:15.686 now looks at the contemporary american city L. A. Or cities like that as a 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:20.117 medium. And he is now writing about the cities in a way like he wrote 01:03:20.150 --> 01:03:23.577 about the TVs and you begin to see other things are more important in the 01:03:23.610 --> 01:03:26.646 cities of today than we thought, just like things on television, things 01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:29.666 that were happening were more important than what we had suspected. And it 01:03:29.699 --> 01:03:33.566 isn't always just the content, it is the media. And so in a sense, uh you 01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:38.566 know with the city to it always in just the contact it is that cities sort 01:03:38.599 --> 01:03:42.296 of, it's as a media and and how it functions that way in the perception of 01:03:42.329 --> 01:03:47.827 it and uh um, and then it gets you and at a point when you begin to 01:03:47.860 --> 01:03:51.327 understand the city as a medium and understand, I mean if you can 01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:55.486 understand television without getting hung up with the particular good and 01:03:55.519 --> 01:03:59.197 bad values of a particular thing, but really understand that medium and 01:03:59.230 --> 01:04:01.887 you do the same thing with the city, then you get on to the next level and 01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:05.367 you can begin to anticipate what should happen, what directions it should 01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:09.467 come. When you can begin to anticipate, you can begin to somehow orient 01:04:09.500 --> 01:04:12.697 yourself to go in those directions. And so in a sense the media has taught 01:04:12.730 --> 01:04:16.387 us a lot in other words, you can take what the media has taught us through 01:04:16.420 --> 01:04:19.006 people that have understood it like marshall McLuhan and you can apply 01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:22.867 that to the environment or anything and and so it has helped us in that 01:04:22.900 --> 01:04:26.057 sense. I mean the media has helped us incredibly understand ourselves and 01:04:26.090 --> 01:04:29.526 I mean all you have to do is have someone point a video camera at you and 01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:31.796 you start talking and you look at the playback and you're gonna learn 01:04:31.829 --> 01:04:36.017 about yourself and what the only problem is that the people that run the 01:04:36.050 --> 01:04:40.407 tv stations don't point the cameras at us more often or everything. I just 01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:48.440 let it, you know and just look at it that way. 01:04:48.889 --> 01:04:51.057 Seven 01:04:51.090 --> 01:04:57.356 no yeah 01:04:57.389 --> 01:05:02.856 receive 01:05:02.889 --> 01:05:08.066 set, 01:05:08.099 --> 01:05:12.247 I don't think even pretending that that's life. It's just those are a 01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:15.287 little little, little theater. They're not really pretending that is 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.537 really like for the most part, I mean, there's no popular television 01:05:18.570 --> 01:05:22.657 series that pretends this is life. I mean, there, there no a friend about 01:05:22.690 --> 01:05:26.907 that inevitably there is a certain amount of inadvertent editorial ization. 01:05:26.940 --> 01:05:31.447 We can't help but influence what we want to see behind, uh, you know, 01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:35.336 well behind the camera or behind anything or even when I'm listening as a 01:05:35.369 --> 01:05:40.227 musician to music around me as it's going to somehow show up in my own 01:05:40.260 --> 01:05:43.006 particular music is bound to be editorialized to a certain extent. That's 01:05:43.039 --> 01:05:45.836 natural. There's no shame in that. I suppose what you're feeling is that 01:05:45.869 --> 01:05:49.376 the people who are most in control of the time on tv or rather shallow 01:05:49.409 --> 01:05:52.796 perhaps and maybe not really thinking very deeply about what all this may 01:05:52.829 --> 01:05:56.557 be really doing to all of us and perhaps it's not really their place to do. 01:05:56.590 --> 01:05:59.646 So that's the other question. But still, can you imagine having yet, 01:05:59.679 --> 01:06:04.407 haven't gotten any political justice personally as a human being after the 01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:07.566 war in Vietnam after Nixon and all that stuff without the television of 01:06:07.599 --> 01:06:11.546 media bringing it to you every day for like four months. I mean that thing 01:06:11.579 --> 01:06:17.046 that the Watergate thing, I mean that it was a kind of in, on one level, 01:06:17.079 --> 01:06:19.697 it's just, it was political justice and only through a medium like that 01:06:19.730 --> 01:06:22.287 could we have gotten it and every day over and over again and the 01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:26.137 television is a medium that can do that and no other medium can do that. 01:06:26.170 --> 01:06:29.396 Give you that kind of justice on one level gave me that kind of just but 01:06:29.429 --> 01:06:32.727 of course it is of course tv justice we have to remember that. I thought 01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:35.807 it was good. I like that. I just, well I mean I mean I don't mind it 01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:39.106 either but it's rather like the guy gets is at the end of the hour show to 01:06:39.139 --> 01:06:42.146 you know we had to have somebody at the end before the commercial comes 01:06:42.179 --> 01:06:45.967 and uh it might not have been so cut and dried in a situation where the 01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:49.666 whole thing was dealt with in a little bit more of a less cut and dried 01:06:49.699 --> 01:06:52.847 kind of way. I mean I don't think that I liked particularly the man who 01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:56.387 lived the presidency but and I don't think he was particularly ill served 01:06:56.420 --> 01:06:59.517 by the situation but after all I think he was dealt like a baddie at the 01:06:59.550 --> 01:07:03.847 end of uh at the end of the T. V. Show. I really do 01:07:03.880 --> 01:07:06.467 that I think has happened to us. I think we tend to go very simply that 01:07:06.500 --> 01:07:09.356 way. And I suppose in a way it's a little bit like public hangings. I mean 01:07:09.389 --> 01:07:12.586 media or media may be one of the media in the past was was a public 01:07:12.619 --> 01:07:16.057 hanging. They were a big offense They used to uh, they used to have 01:07:16.090 --> 01:07:19.517 wonderful, you know, and the church suppers afterwards and you had to buy 01:07:19.550 --> 01:07:23.747 tickets to see the guy get is and all kinds of things are also, you know, 01:07:23.780 --> 01:07:28.227 a kind of show, what the basic thing about it though is that we're talking 01:07:28.260 --> 01:07:33.807 about what media is or any of these things is the, somebody initiates it 01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:38.666 and somebody is watching or somebody is listening, paul sills, who is the 01:07:38.699 --> 01:07:41.756 founder really of Second City and who was a man I've worked with many 01:07:41.789 --> 01:07:45.506 years over the long, long time and a very intelligent guy says theater, 01:07:45.539 --> 01:07:50.847 somebody performing and somebody watching. And this was basically an 01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:53.447 answer of 01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:57.376 question which was very prevalent in the late fifties. And that is that 01:07:57.409 --> 01:08:00.407 the real reason that theater seemed to be in such a trouble, it was a 01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.827 little bit more abundantly, you know, according to many people in the 01:08:03.860 --> 01:08:07.037 small audiences and so on was because we were basically still dealing with 01:08:07.070 --> 01:08:10.506 a proscenium stage that we really had to start thinking about, you know, 01:08:10.539 --> 01:08:15.416 thrust stages theater in the round street theater, what have you and the 01:08:15.449 --> 01:08:20.576 media that the area in which the theater was happening would have such an 01:08:20.609 --> 01:08:23.456 effect that this was somewhat revitalized theater. So we accordingly built 01:08:23.489 --> 01:08:26.996 an awful lot of new theaters with uh, you know, theater around theaters 01:08:27.029 --> 01:08:30.017 and thrust stages and theaters hanging from the ceiling and so and so 01:08:30.050 --> 01:08:33.527 forth. And theater still had the same basic problem because it had somehow 01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:38.126 lost that equation of theater being somebody performing and somebody 01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:42.836 watching in the same kind of way that speaking is using your lips tongue, 01:08:42.869 --> 01:08:47.046 mouth breath and so on. What you're talking about a very basic function. 01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:51.057 And if you keep this line, it doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference 01:08:51.090 --> 01:08:54.137 whether you're playing what you're playing on a proscenium stage or or 01:08:54.170 --> 01:08:57.567 hanging by your thumbs, uh someplace off the flagpole, it depends 01:08:57.600 --> 01:09:00.937 basically that you have somebody performing and somebody watching, you 01:09:00.970 --> 01:09:04.666 have the initiator and you have the person who is receiving it. It's 01:09:04.699 --> 01:09:07.677 basically holding the floor for the time being in the same way I'm holding 01:09:07.710 --> 01:09:10.977 the floor probably for far too long here in front of you, where you're 01:09:11.010 --> 01:09:14.727 sitting there basically listening. And the point about having a lot of 01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:19.067 time when you've taken off a chunk of time and ask people to concentrate 01:09:19.100 --> 01:09:23.076 on that chunk of time is that you're hoping that in that process some of 01:09:23.109 --> 01:09:27.506 the changes that don't happen when it's just a quick conversation, I say 01:09:27.539 --> 01:09:31.046 two words you say towards might happen because I've asked you to have a 01:09:31.079 --> 01:09:34.987 larger parcel of time to concentrate on what I have to say. There are 01:09:35.020 --> 01:09:39.296 things that must be done and said and unrolled that take that kind of 01:09:39.329 --> 01:09:44.267 concentration and that kind of time and that kind of bearing with one and 01:09:44.300 --> 01:09:48.836 if that if that equation of somebody performing and somebody watching or 01:09:48.869 --> 01:09:52.317 somebody doing something to somebody listening, if that has kept strong, 01:09:52.350 --> 01:09:56.607 it doesn't matter really what the medium is and what I'm saying now is if 01:09:56.640 --> 01:09:59.737 this is so and I feel it really is, it doesn't sound like something to be 01:09:59.770 --> 01:10:02.046 questioned, but I mean it could very easily be you see people talking 01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:05.597 about audience participation while you do participate, you participate by 01:10:05.630 --> 01:10:09.317 listening. There are also lots of different ways of how this is done. If 01:10:09.350 --> 01:10:12.357 you're in a black church, you respond by responding after the things that 01:10:12.390 --> 01:10:15.366 are there, if you're a political meeting and do the same thing by clapping. 01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:20.446 These are all different equations as an audience and initiator because 01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:25.927 they are very much determined by the place and the time this place is 01:10:25.960 --> 01:10:30.177 going to change a lot of those perceptions because we're dealing with a 01:10:30.210 --> 01:10:33.967 physically different kind of place to operate still. However, we're 01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:37.567 dealing with something which is just as ancient as time and that is you 01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:42.626 out there me up front and that of course won't change for quite a while. 01:10:42.659 --> 01:10:45.086 Speaking of time, we're getting to the end. I think we should ask for the 01:10:45.119 --> 01:10:49.027 last question, there is one 01:10:49.060 --> 01:10:52.756 and if not, I think we should make you want to make a one sentence last 01:10:52.789 --> 01:10:57.116 statement that I won't be happy until William Shakespeare's prophecy, that 01:10:57.149 --> 01:11:01.027 the whole world is a stage actually happens 01:11:01.060 --> 01:11:07.456 Okay. I think one should say that Subpoena and Richard saw woman will be 01:11:07.489 --> 01:11:11.746 presumably on the panel tomorrow. They weren't able to make it yet today. 01:11:11.779 --> 01:11:15.876 And that will take place here at 3:00 and continuation of this panel at 01:11:15.909 --> 01:11:23.909 whatever subjects takes up. Thank you for coming. Uh huh. 01:11:27.060 --> 01:11:35.060 Uh huh. 01:12:08.550 --> 01:12:14.227 Very pompous as panelists up here saying all these incredible things. What 01:12:14.260 --> 01:12:19.956 we are scheduled to talk about is arcosanti, Critical Mass. And it's a 01:12:19.989 --> 01:12:24.126 kind of esoteric title to put on any sort of panel discussion. So I felt 01:12:24.159 --> 01:12:28.397 that perhaps what we should do as a starting point is maybe explain what 01:12:28.430 --> 01:12:34.866 that means in terms of artist Sandy and that of course comes from nuclear 01:12:34.899 --> 01:12:40.826 physics, physics and it basically describes a phenomenon that requires two 01:12:40.859 --> 01:12:43.916 things. It requires 01:12:43.949 --> 01:12:49.756 particles with a certain all right kind of quality about them. In this 01:12:49.789 --> 01:12:54.607 case it means they have to be radioactive. It also as well as 01:12:54.640 --> 01:13:00.076 qualitatively it describes the quantity. A certain number of interactions 01:13:00.109 --> 01:13:07.239 cannot happen unless that critical mass is available in a certain quantity. 01:13:07.350 --> 01:13:09.350 And we can use that term critical mass as a metaphor for some of the the 01:13:13.949 --> 01:13:21.949 human civilizations communities, cities that we have um when the critical 01:13:22.020 --> 01:13:27.626 mass in any community is very low, that is that the density of it is very 01:13:27.659 --> 01:13:30.847 low, then the number of interactions that tend to happen within that 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:35.916 community is very, very small. Um if you can imagine an agrarian society 01:13:35.949 --> 01:13:39.597 with all the members of that society spread out maybe half a mile apart, 01:13:39.630 --> 01:13:44.876 Information throughout that community tends to travel very slowly. Um Once 01:13:44.909 --> 01:13:50.567 you start making a denser packing of a population than the information in 01:13:50.600 --> 01:13:57.817 that more densely packed grouping flows much more freely. And that's what 01:13:57.850 --> 01:14:00.977 that's what we're trying to do in terms of building our Kazanjian, 01:14:01.010 --> 01:14:05.836 building our colleges generally is we're trying to to make a denser kind 01:14:05.869 --> 01:14:10.876 of situation where information and ideas will flow in a much, much freer 01:14:10.909 --> 01:14:15.206 way than they do in our existing environments. 01:14:15.239 --> 01:14:20.206 Um one of the problems, of course, in dealing with that kind of metaphor 01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:24.496 is that we're talking about quantity because generally when one talks 01:14:24.529 --> 01:14:29.906 about critical mass, one deals in quantitative terms and we have to be 01:14:29.939 --> 01:14:35.376 really aware that besides quantity, we have to deal with the element of 01:14:35.409 --> 01:14:41.387 quality because if we just deal with quantity, we get back into the same 01:14:41.420 --> 01:14:45.217 trap that the consumerist society has got us involved in where we deal 01:14:45.250 --> 01:14:49.906 more with quantity than what the quality of the things that we buy uh 01:14:49.939 --> 01:14:56.527 bring us. Um in a way, the festival through the intensity of the 01:14:56.560 --> 01:15:00.817 interactions that go on through this weekend is a sort of mini version of 01:15:00.850 --> 01:15:04.446 the critical mass by bringing together anarchist sanity, all the 01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:11.456 performers, the speakers, the artists and a large number of the general 01:15:11.489 --> 01:15:16.137 public were in fact creating a critical mass that brings about enormous 01:15:16.170 --> 01:15:20.777 surge in the energy that surrounds Arcosanti. And what we're eventually 01:15:20.810 --> 01:15:28.506 hoping to do is to make this on a more permanent basis. Um Mhm. What we uh 01:15:28.539 --> 01:15:34.206 uh scheduled to do is to try and examine how this process can be begun at 01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:39.107 Arcosanti and how we can continue to create this condition. What happens 01:15:39.140 --> 01:15:43.126 now is the festival happens once a year and what we would like to have is 01:15:43.159 --> 01:15:49.107 the same sort of energy is going on here on a more continuous basis. 01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:55.057 Um My sense is that one of the ways that we can do this is that we have to 01:15:55.090 --> 01:16:00.246 begin with basics and that means the basic reassessment of a of the values 01:16:00.279 --> 01:16:05.567 that we as a society embrace because our values really a shape our 01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:11.786 environments and then our environment shape us. And what I feel in order 01:16:11.819 --> 01:16:16.487 to get this idea going and to make it take off is that we we must attempt 01:16:16.520 --> 01:16:20.597 to make Arcosanti a focus point which will challenge the artists and the 01:16:20.630 --> 01:16:26.097 performer and basically there's no greater challenge than to challenge 01:16:26.130 --> 01:16:30.637 someone's values in someone's ethics and what we would like to do. I feel 01:16:30.670 --> 01:16:34.996 that Arcosanti is to challenge the sort of ethics and the sort of values 01:16:35.029 --> 01:16:39.777 that lead us into a the kind of society that deals in consumerism and 01:16:39.810 --> 01:16:46.717 speculation and segregation and greed and so on. Um So I feel that if we 01:16:46.750 --> 01:16:51.456 want to uh encourage the idea of this critical mass taking off and 01:16:51.489 --> 01:16:58.756 beginning to uh to ferment some new ideas from arcosanti that we we have 01:16:58.789 --> 01:17:01.496 to 01:17:01.529 --> 01:17:05.786 boy, we have to send out the word to all those people that have a 01:17:05.819 --> 01:17:11.196 commitment to quality in in our lives. Um and let people know that artist 01:17:11.229 --> 01:17:16.967 , artist Sandy stands for a set of values that challenge um those kind of 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:21.887 values that we've become accustomed to in our modern society. And we'd 01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:27.767 wish to challenge not only the artist, but you and and anybody who is 01:17:27.800 --> 01:17:31.817 interested in changing those values to create with us a vision of the 01:17:31.850 --> 01:17:36.326 world as it could be in the future. Because we are really now at a point 01:17:36.359 --> 01:17:42.036 when we collectively are creating our own futures. We have the ability and 01:17:42.069 --> 01:17:48.446 the and the um, the techniques to create our future, but perhaps what 01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:53.027 we're lacking is the vision of what that future can become. So, I feel 01:17:53.060 --> 01:17:57.887 that by challenging the artist uh in a very direct way, and in a very 01:17:57.920 --> 01:18:04.006 basic way that we can really encourage uh, this explosion of energy at 01:18:04.039 --> 01:18:09.576 Arcosanti that we call the critical mass effect. And we have here on the 01:18:09.609 --> 01:18:16.137 panel several people who have responded to the challenge of Arcosanti by 01:18:16.170 --> 01:18:20.637 coming out here and uh joining us on the panel and also doing some of the 01:18:20.670 --> 01:18:25.696 artworks. And I'd like to throw open the discussion to them. I'm sure 01:18:25.729 --> 01:18:30.097 everybody could introduce themselves if you feel you would like to tom 01:18:30.130 --> 01:18:35.336 would you like like to stop. Sure, you can hear it right. 01:18:35.369 --> 01:18:43.227 My name is Tom Van Sant. I'm a sculptor and painter. And recently five 01:18:43.260 --> 01:18:48.246 years have become interested in kites and like eating peanuts, they just 01:18:48.279 --> 01:18:56.279 couldn't stop. And so my role here, not only the pleasure of of being here 01:18:56.840 --> 01:19:01.137 , but it's also to fly some large kites which will be doing over the 01:19:01.170 --> 01:19:03.987 weekend. 01:19:04.020 --> 01:19:09.286 This is my first visit to Arcosanti. 01:19:09.319 --> 01:19:15.517 I arrived last night at about 6:30 when the shadows were very long and I 01:19:15.550 --> 01:19:19.517 saw it from the, for the first time from the gas station there off the 01:19:19.550 --> 01:19:21.987 highway. 01:19:22.020 --> 01:19:30.020 It's a it's a magic place. Mhm. The people here feel as though they are 01:19:30.569 --> 01:19:37.887 active in their own destiny, in this, in this environment. 01:19:37.920 --> 01:19:43.937 And it occurs to me that the title for our discussion is critical mass. 01:19:43.970 --> 01:19:50.977 That implies the gaining of power. When when a structure, a relationship 01:19:51.010 --> 01:19:54.687 between forces 01:19:54.720 --> 01:20:02.720 brings that relationship to a point that it can exercise power 01:20:06.310 --> 01:20:11.677 and critical mass is not only 01:20:11.710 --> 01:20:19.710 a time of kind of jubilation if if you are seeking power, but it's a time 01:20:20.119 --> 01:20:25.416 of testing because that's where most ideas begin to fail. They begin to 01:20:25.449 --> 01:20:33.449 die. As soon as they gain power, gain a following, gain resources, gain 01:20:33.479 --> 01:20:40.576 respectability, uh gain all the things that they think they want. 01:20:40.609 --> 01:20:48.376 And the founder of that institution or the originator of those ideas may 01:20:48.409 --> 01:20:56.277 uh may disclaim the positions of the institution, but the institution 01:20:56.310 --> 01:21:02.456 always seems to institutionalize those ideas and they seem to in one 01:21:02.489 --> 01:21:04.477 respect, 01:21:04.510 --> 01:21:12.387 begin to die upon upon maturity, upon receiving acknowledgement upon 01:21:12.420 --> 01:21:16.177 gaining power. 01:21:16.210 --> 01:21:24.076 Um I think that is something to be to be considered 01:21:24.109 --> 01:21:28.177 um 01:21:28.210 --> 01:21:32.777 by the residents of Arcosanti. 01:21:32.810 --> 01:21:39.397 Can can fulfillment really destroy the dream or change it to where it's 01:21:39.430 --> 01:21:45.067 not that kind of a dream anymore. To me right now, it is perfectly alive, 01:21:45.100 --> 01:21:50.916 perfectly marvelous. The people here are coming because they enjoy it. 01:21:50.949 --> 01:21:58.406 There's no um there's no prestige involved with participating or 01:21:58.439 --> 01:22:02.927 exhibiting at Arcosanti is just at the right place for everything to 01:22:02.960 --> 01:22:05.666 happen. 01:22:05.699 --> 01:22:09.567 Um 01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:16.286 So can tab hunter deal with success? Can arcosanti survive reaching 01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:20.767 critical mass. 01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:28.800 I had passed the question then on. Okay. 01:22:30.500 --> 01:22:33.887 At the risk of perhaps saying nothing of substance at all, were determined 01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:39.586 to make it spontaneous and not to write. Our responses are adults. My name 01:22:39.619 --> 01:22:47.517 is Arthur stops and I designed Mhm architectural sculptures and I'm 01:22:47.550 --> 01:22:52.847 building houses with friends in san Francisco area. And I myself, I'm 01:22:52.880 --> 01:22:57.897 interested in perhaps becoming a more permanent part of Arcosanti. I had 01:22:57.930 --> 01:23:03.517 to explore that. Maybe I had to explore myself in conjunction, but it does 01:23:03.550 --> 01:23:08.746 seem as tom says a most wonderful place at this present time, but the 01:23:08.779 --> 01:23:14.296 question is not how to deal with the problems of critical mass, but rather 01:23:14.329 --> 01:23:21.576 how critical mass can be achieved and my personal questions how could I as 01:23:21.609 --> 01:23:29.609 an artist slash builder relate to our arcosanti. Um, maybe the placing of 01:23:29.800 --> 01:23:33.027 me on this panel somehow natural, although I'm not sure what I'm going to 01:23:33.060 --> 01:23:38.916 say next to you there. Um, if artists such as myself or builders such as 01:23:38.949 --> 01:23:44.826 myself wish to make themselves a permanent part of and contribute 01:23:44.859 --> 01:23:52.859 contribution to arcosanti, what airport, what provision is made for that 01:23:52.979 --> 01:23:58.067 as yet unclassified type. 01:23:58.100 --> 01:24:00.156 Okay. 01:24:00.189 --> 01:24:04.826 I think I'll just leave that as a question for a moment and perhaps other 01:24:04.859 --> 01:24:09.557 speakers will respond to that. 01:24:09.590 --> 01:24:14.756 Mm hmm. Yeah. Do you want to say 01:24:14.789 --> 01:24:17.756 go ahead. Uh, 01:24:17.789 --> 01:24:24.637 my name is ruth asawa linear and I am from san Francisco. I'm a sculptor 01:24:24.670 --> 01:24:31.456 and as a student, I went to Black Mountain College 01:24:31.489 --> 01:24:38.307 uh, which was an experiment in living and working building, um, building 01:24:38.340 --> 01:24:46.340 buildings and uh working with artists. Ah, That idea began in 1933 and 01:24:46.699 --> 01:24:54.699 lasted 17 years and when it ended, the idea was really over because the 01:24:55.090 --> 01:25:00.076 commitment was over. And so I'm very interested in Arcosanti because I 01:25:00.109 --> 01:25:05.006 feel that that I wanted to see what was happening here and what the 01:25:05.039 --> 01:25:12.006 commitment is, what the plans are for. I mean for how many years and 01:25:12.039 --> 01:25:18.767 whether that commitment can last uh, to finally realize what you really 01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:26.800 want because you're in a period of of, of developing still. And and 01:25:27.380 --> 01:25:33.196 somehow I don't know when that point of real success comes when things 01:25:33.229 --> 01:25:39.756 begin to fall apart and 01:25:39.789 --> 01:25:45.927 when I I spent three years at Black Mountain College uh in an isolated 01:25:45.960 --> 01:25:53.960 community isolated from the native community. And, 01:25:54.210 --> 01:26:00.727 and it was a very exciting time because reflecting on it to try to realize 01:26:00.760 --> 01:26:06.777 what was really important about it was the people who were there. And I 01:26:06.810 --> 01:26:12.616 think that that will determine how long arcosanti will remain effective. 01:26:12.649 --> 01:26:18.656 Is is the people who make it up. It's not just the buildings, but it will 01:26:18.689 --> 01:26:24.687 be the people who, who will be here to do the work. And I think what made 01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:28.946 Black Mountain finally end was that 01:26:28.979 --> 01:26:33.616 there were less workers than there were talkers. And I think that you have 01:26:33.649 --> 01:26:41.286 to be very careful about about having a commitment to working and you 01:26:41.319 --> 01:26:46.536 could have a lot of wonderful ideas. But if the people here are not 01:26:46.569 --> 01:26:54.569 willing to do the the milking of the cows are harvesting or or the kitchen 01:26:54.890 --> 01:27:01.347 work or mopping the floors, all of those things that don't change whether 01:27:01.380 --> 01:27:06.217 in history, I mean there's no past or there's no future to that. I mean 01:27:06.250 --> 01:27:11.456 it's always with us. And I think if you don't understand that, then this 01:27:11.489 --> 01:27:14.246 place won't last. 01:27:14.279 --> 01:27:19.506 My, I was so tired of living in the community after three years that I 01:27:19.539 --> 01:27:24.727 decided that I would never live in the community again. But I decided that 01:27:24.760 --> 01:27:28.946 the unit that I felt that I would like to experiment with was my own 01:27:28.979 --> 01:27:35.677 family. So we had, we we have six Children. And I think out of that unit 01:27:35.710 --> 01:27:39.967 is still, I feel, I feel having worked in the community, having worked in 01:27:40.000 --> 01:27:46.597 the, in the city and finding that the most exciting unit is the family 01:27:46.630 --> 01:27:50.817 unit because you can have those who work and those who don't work and 01:27:50.850 --> 01:27:57.086 those who who pitch in, who don't pitch in. And if that if that mix, which 01:27:57.119 --> 01:28:03.227 is why I think what critical mass means if that mix doesn't work, then the 01:28:03.260 --> 01:28:08.696 whole thing will not run smoothly. And it's not that things should be easy 01:28:08.729 --> 01:28:16.729 , but but every part of it has to be working. And that's why I felt that 01:28:18.670 --> 01:28:23.196 that instead of trying to start another black mountain, which is what 01:28:23.229 --> 01:28:26.256 everybody says, why don't you start another black mountain. Such a 01:28:26.289 --> 01:28:31.807 wonderful period that I feel that it is too late to start another black 01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:38.677 mountain because we talk about energy crisis and we talk about about 01:28:38.710 --> 01:28:45.937 city's decaying and we find that people are leaving the city. So 01:28:45.970 --> 01:28:51.387 enrollment in school is declining. We have surplus buildings that at this 01:28:51.420 --> 01:28:56.727 point in the city we don't have to build new buildings. What we really 01:28:56.760 --> 01:29:01.786 need to do is redefine the use of these buildings and make them work in a 01:29:01.819 --> 01:29:07.347 different way for us. That's why I feel that the, the philosophy or the 01:29:07.380 --> 01:29:13.767 idea of bringing competent people into a mix. We talk about public 01:29:13.800 --> 01:29:19.767 education being so ineffective. It's because the mix is not right. And I 01:29:19.800 --> 01:29:24.996 think the important thing that we need in public education because that at 01:29:25.029 --> 01:29:30.677 this point is where the most money is spent in this country. I mean in 01:29:30.710 --> 01:29:34.817 California we spend $8 billion half 01:29:34.850 --> 01:29:38.647 of the state's budget goes into education. And yet we don't have an 01:29:38.680 --> 01:29:46.680 effective program. So my feeling is that if we can we can fill our schools 01:29:49.210 --> 01:29:52.217 and make that mix, 01:29:52.250 --> 01:29:59.696 then something might happen. And if it doesn't happen then then hopefully 01:29:59.729 --> 01:30:07.027 the family unit is still in operation because I feel that that 01:30:07.060 --> 01:30:12.706 our Children don't have to have a recreation director, don't have to have 01:30:12.739 --> 01:30:20.036 a community center to go to. They take we have one who loves sports and he 01:30:20.069 --> 01:30:25.746 gathers all his friends and gets the six pack and they go to a public park 01:30:25.779 --> 01:30:29.597 and they have a game, they have that every saturday so that this we don't 01:30:29.630 --> 01:30:34.847 have to spend money on hiring counselors. And because they counsel 01:30:34.880 --> 01:30:40.427 themselves and they have learned in a way to work and be responsible. 01:30:40.460 --> 01:30:44.756 Although they like to play more than they like to work. I mean that's 01:30:44.789 --> 01:30:51.166 what they say about us that that mom and dad Don't have to, I mean you can 01:30:51.199 --> 01:30:58.456 work seven days a week, 20 hours a day. But us we me I'm going to play a 01:30:58.489 --> 01:31:02.296 little and I'm going to work a little. So I think that they have the right 01:31:02.329 --> 01:31:08.916 idea about the right mix and I think it depends on how big you want to get 01:31:08.949 --> 01:31:16.949 and how you can make that that size and work for you and it's really what 01:31:17.960 --> 01:31:21.927 you want to happen, 01:31:21.960 --> 01:31:26.406 you just get one last point of view and then we can start okay I'll make 01:31:26.439 --> 01:31:34.439 it short. Do you think we're, my name is kate Maxwell and I'm an artist in 01:31:35.050 --> 01:31:42.027 a very personal day to day way and my specialty is psychotherapy. And the 01:31:42.060 --> 01:31:48.517 thing that I find to be of critical importance is how to help people be 01:31:48.550 --> 01:31:54.786 creative in a day to day. Since the people I see most of them have lost 01:31:54.819 --> 01:31:59.727 their creativity and they've lost their sense of play. 01:31:59.760 --> 01:32:05.616 And when an individual has done that then they need an environment that 01:32:05.649 --> 01:32:12.987 will support them in learning to uh to let loose to be creative and they 01:32:13.020 --> 01:32:19.366 need to confront their own inner, need to expand their limits to enjoy 01:32:19.399 --> 01:32:26.326 themselves. Um Tom and I were playing earlier with words and one of the 01:32:26.359 --> 01:32:30.317 words we were playing with was humor. 01:32:30.350 --> 01:32:37.467 Um Tom brought up the fact that humor is uh is an old term that has two 01:32:37.500 --> 01:32:45.500 meanings. one is that fluid that forms in an injured joint that is needed 01:32:46.119 --> 01:32:48.416 to provide 01:32:48.449 --> 01:32:56.246 um movement lubrication, you have to have lubrication in your life and 01:32:56.279 --> 01:33:01.307 humor acts as a lubrication for us in any kind of an environment 01:33:01.340 --> 01:33:06.477 environment such as arcosanti you have to have humor if you don't have 01:33:06.510 --> 01:33:12.317 humor, you limit your sense of play and you limit your creativity. 01:33:12.350 --> 01:33:19.696 So one of my interests in arcosanti is how do people play here? How do you 01:33:19.729 --> 01:33:26.217 combine work and play? How are you creative in a day to day since there's 01:33:26.250 --> 01:33:30.737 , you know, you're doing bits and pieces of a tremendous structure, which 01:33:30.770 --> 01:33:35.156 is very exciting. How do you keep that in mind? How do you make it live 01:33:35.189 --> 01:33:39.376 for yourselves and how do you keep alive your relationship so that their 01:33:39.409 --> 01:33:46.727 creative and there's play in humor and and just day to day enjoyment. I 01:33:46.760 --> 01:33:51.107 think this could be an extremely exciting community and it takes a certain 01:33:51.140 --> 01:33:57.857 amount of awareness and work to keep um the goals in mind and to keep a 01:33:57.890 --> 01:34:05.890 sense of humor and play and a creative way of dealing with everyday life. 01:34:10.239 --> 01:34:17.147 We just one you seem to have several different questions may be rather 01:34:17.180 --> 01:34:22.317 than answers. And I guess that's always the first part of trying to get 01:34:22.350 --> 01:34:27.756 some solutions is to find out what the questions are. It seems like one of 01:34:27.789 --> 01:34:31.866 the things we're talking about is not only how to generate a critical mass 01:34:31.899 --> 01:34:35.767 , but is that success is going to be a danger to the community anarchy 01:34:35.800 --> 01:34:42.116 Sandy and to the innovation that we get in this kind of environment. The 01:34:42.149 --> 01:34:45.746 other question is, is the replace for the artist on a day to day basis 01:34:45.779 --> 01:34:53.576 right now. And how can we fit those people into the present situation? 01:34:53.609 --> 01:34:59.296 and the 4th thing seems to be that the work ethic, which I think we have 01:34:59.329 --> 01:35:03.996 pretty well down at arc insanity right now. We have a, we have a T shirt 01:35:04.029 --> 01:35:09.807 that says work hard, play hard tired, which sort of defines the 01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:17.840 philosophical ideas behind, behind work here. Um, and the idea of uh, the 01:35:17.850 --> 01:35:22.277 family unit as community. Um, I think what we're doing in arcosanti is in 01:35:22.310 --> 01:35:29.076 fact restructuring the, the, the way that the community has put together, 01:35:29.109 --> 01:35:33.506 but not necessarily restructuring the individual units of that community. 01:35:33.539 --> 01:35:39.267 We're rearranging the communications between those various elements of 01:35:39.300 --> 01:35:44.267 any community to make it easier for them to, to operate what we would also 01:35:44.300 --> 01:35:47.256 like to do. I think in terms of education is to make the city the 01:35:47.289 --> 01:35:53.607 education in itself. Many of our cities seem to forgo the option of using 01:35:53.640 --> 01:35:58.366 all the resources that are available as educational resources and we would 01:35:58.399 --> 01:36:03.116 like to do that here. And the other thing that you raised is very 01:36:03.149 --> 01:36:07.836 difficult to define. There's a very bizarre sense of humor at artist Sandy. 01:36:07.869 --> 01:36:11.897 Um, probably needs someone like yourself to try and define what it is, 01:36:11.930 --> 01:36:18.987 But there is one here, but maybe if, uh, we would like to involve the 01:36:19.020 --> 01:36:22.256 audience here, there's nothing more boring than sitting and listening to a 01:36:22.289 --> 01:36:25.746 lot of people talk all the time, especially if you have a question that 01:36:25.779 --> 01:36:33.779 you'd like to ask and maybe you would like to lead off. Sure. 01:36:36.130 --> 01:36:42.496 Uh well, Well 100 ducks is kind of bizarre human. We've been offered 100 01:36:42.529 --> 01:36:48.227 ducks from a from a community down in to someone of the developments down 01:36:48.260 --> 01:36:55.696 there. They no alive, alive and well we're right now, what? We have a 01:36:55.729 --> 01:36:59.637 moment, we're exchanging video letters with two other communities, we as a 01:36:59.670 --> 01:37:04.586 community called Finn Horn in Scotland, um which is a spiritual community 01:37:04.619 --> 01:37:09.677 that was founded by a person called peter caddy. There's another city 01:37:09.710 --> 01:37:13.677 being built in India called Oroville and we're exchanging tapes with them 01:37:13.710 --> 01:37:17.977 and there's a networking community in uh new Hampshire called Another 01:37:18.010 --> 01:37:23.506 Place and they're part of this video network. And uh I should really get 01:37:23.539 --> 01:37:26.307 Richard johnson here to tell you what our cassandra humor is about because 01:37:26.340 --> 01:37:31.376 he does a lot of very funny videotapes. Um but they all seem to revolve 01:37:31.409 --> 01:37:35.496 around ducks, which I'm not quite sure why, 01:37:35.529 --> 01:37:39.796 but that might be an example of the bizarre humor I was talking about uh 01:37:39.829 --> 01:37:43.237 we have a lot of heating ducts as well that goes through the buildings and 01:37:43.270 --> 01:37:50.166 somehow they get mixed up together. Um the humor is very strange. I'm not 01:37:50.199 --> 01:37:53.996 humorous myself, so I have a great difficulty in trying to describe 01:37:54.029 --> 01:37:56.696 someone else's humor. 01:37:56.729 --> 01:38:00.836 That's the best I can do with that question. Unless somebody were richard 01:38:00.869 --> 01:38:08.869 would probably, Yeah. 01:38:59.920 --> 01:39:07.920 Yes, 01:39:12.939 --> 01:39:15.187 awesome. 01:39:15.220 --> 01:39:21.987 Mm look at this. 01:39:22.020 --> 01:39:27.086 Yes. 01:39:27.119 --> 01:39:32.187 Yeah. Yes. 01:39:32.220 --> 01:39:36.086 Oh 01:39:36.119 --> 01:39:41.487 yeah, yeah. Uh 01:39:41.520 --> 01:39:45.786 mhm 01:39:45.819 --> 01:39:51.576 Mhm Yeah. Right. Go crazy without a sense of humor. Too much work you've 01:39:51.609 --> 01:39:55.786 got to be able to play, Is it the family that plays together stays 01:39:55.819 --> 01:40:00.076 together? 01:40:00.109 --> 01:40:04.376 It's true. 01:40:04.409 --> 01:40:10.777 This is this is a family, isn't it? In a sense? 01:40:10.810 --> 01:40:15.177 No. 01:40:15.210 --> 01:40:19.177 Right. 01:40:19.210 --> 01:40:22.677 Yeah. Yeah, 01:40:22.710 --> 01:40:30.710 I don't know. Let's go over. Um All right. 01:40:31.109 --> 01:40:37.626 Yeah. Don't know. But community is a party, Not just people here, there's 01:40:37.659 --> 01:40:45.277 2500 about work about and with his staff here changed out I think about 01:40:45.310 --> 01:40:52.876 two years, like, like just about all the stats is 01:40:52.909 --> 01:41:00.909 die hard, stay on time here, but uh huh. Fire with people, our staff as 01:41:01.029 --> 01:41:07.376 you change out told me to use the c case you can see you can come back 01:41:07.409 --> 01:41:13.027 staff that you someone that they respect the back back there there and 01:41:13.060 --> 01:41:19.777 then we will lose never people all over the country and uh huh Actually, 01:41:19.810 --> 01:41:25.076 two recently. Mhm. A lot of 01:41:25.109 --> 01:41:32.967 Yeah. Center so be aware that every side of community means the people 01:41:33.000 --> 01:41:39.477 here, my back and I'm glad to do anything essentially. Right or not. Yeah 01:41:39.510 --> 01:41:47.510 , create advanced I think any more 100 people outside and the girl place 01:41:47.960 --> 01:41:54.777 Yeah. People that are here sliding away at the reason these people outside 01:41:54.810 --> 01:41:57.376 one of those. 01:41:57.409 --> 01:42:04.967 Yeah. Yeah. No. Right. 01:42:05.000 --> 01:42:09.786 Yes. Working outside. Yeah. I think that's that's important to look at our 01:42:09.819 --> 01:42:13.156 stand in my opinion is to look at our cassandra as a focus of all these 01:42:13.189 --> 01:42:17.607 different energies that are spread out over a large part of the country, a 01:42:17.640 --> 01:42:23.567 large part of the world and maybe by becoming a synthesizer of a lot of 01:42:23.600 --> 01:42:27.906 different activities like like coming and doing kites and having the 01:42:27.939 --> 01:42:31.286 lasers go on. And that's a real neat idea that maybe came out of the fact 01:42:31.319 --> 01:42:34.897 that we had kites and lasers together. Um, that might not have happened 01:42:34.930 --> 01:42:39.866 before. So it seems to be that 01:42:39.899 --> 01:42:43.887 having a very clear idea that this place can act almost like a prism that 01:42:43.920 --> 01:42:48.737 will focus a lot of different activities into one uh, into a sort of 01:42:48.770 --> 01:42:52.517 transcendent kind of look at society where we can begin to change some of 01:42:52.550 --> 01:42:56.397 those institutions in our society that don't function properly or humanely 01:42:56.430 --> 01:43:00.807 or compassionately and try and come up with some better solutions to what 01:43:00.840 --> 01:43:03.067 is happening. 01:43:03.100 --> 01:43:08.397 Um, another speaker was asking me and I'm a first come first visitor 01:43:08.430 --> 01:43:13.147 myself, what becomes of those who have been to Arcosanti? What are those 01:43:13.180 --> 01:43:17.857 persons doing and the outside world, so to speak, as we used to call it a 01:43:17.890 --> 01:43:21.746 Talus and where there was a great difference between the inside and the 01:43:21.779 --> 01:43:28.866 outside you hear, I say 01:43:28.899 --> 01:43:35.786 most people have all kinds of my God, most mm hmm. A lot of people come 01:43:35.819 --> 01:43:40.706 here, they're in school work or to school some sort, but if I gave you the 01:43:40.739 --> 01:43:48.739 first version, they're going on to school many fish, exciting. We're and 01:43:49.619 --> 01:43:53.376 then maybe I'll come back and marry. Not really feel better protection 01:43:53.409 --> 01:44:01.409 this place there. I think about many, many people have been here. Yeah. 01:44:01.890 --> 01:44:04.057 All right. 01:44:04.090 --> 01:44:12.090 Just one I used to think right heart. Mhm. You can't say a strong 25. Yeah. 01:44:15.289 --> 01:44:17.289 Mhm. Thanks for english. Yeah, Russell is one of the people that's out in 01:44:22.630 --> 01:44:28.857 san Francisco doing things for us all the time is an engineer. He works 01:44:28.890 --> 01:44:35.116 for us on and off and comes out once every few months. Right. And so and 01:44:35.149 --> 01:44:39.456 also there's some networks being set up in san Francisco on the east coast 01:44:39.489 --> 01:44:43.987 michigan all over the country. And in a sense, I suppose one could look at 01:44:44.020 --> 01:44:48.116 the critical mass happening almost in an evolutionary sense that uh as 01:44:48.149 --> 01:44:52.296 this is sort of the germination ground here at Arcosanti. Again, the focus 01:44:52.329 --> 01:44:56.876 and all those seeds go out all over the country and uh spread the idea and 01:44:56.909 --> 01:45:02.057 spread the some of the theories that are behind the concept of our ecology. 01:45:02.090 --> 01:45:06.177 Um and again, I think this, this whole festival is a focus of that kind 01:45:06.210 --> 01:45:12.756 of energy that we're beginning to get, get into. But maybe what I would, 01:45:12.789 --> 01:45:17.647 one of the things we could examine is in a way that the role of the artist 01:45:17.680 --> 01:45:24.857 architect because a lot of what is happening at Arcosanti is in a way uh 01:45:24.890 --> 01:45:28.397 restructuring through the physical structure of a community, how that 01:45:28.430 --> 01:45:33.456 community operates and that kind of changes very dramatically the role, 01:45:33.489 --> 01:45:37.387 particularly the architect, but also the artist, there can be no more of 01:45:37.420 --> 01:45:41.147 the the traditional architects view that you go and you build a building 01:45:41.180 --> 01:45:45.057 and then you call in the artist and tell them to decorate something. I 01:45:45.090 --> 01:45:49.477 think there has to be much more synthesis between architecture and art and 01:45:49.510 --> 01:45:54.156 perhaps by encouraging that kind of synthesis that would help to get the 01:45:54.189 --> 01:45:57.687 get some of that critical mass going, the energy flowing through the 01:45:57.720 --> 01:46:02.147 process. That's definitely true. I want 01:46:02.180 --> 01:46:06.847 do you have a question 01:46:06.880 --> 01:46:11.546 myself working? 01:46:11.579 --> 01:46:19.506 Okay. Mhm comfortable. Yeah. And you move from real. Yeah. Just a place 01:46:19.539 --> 01:46:27.539 that you ever be at living here. 01:46:27.960 --> 01:46:35.960 Can you make a common special or unique now? You need to know. Thank you. 01:46:38.079 --> 01:46:40.079 Yes. Not all the time. But do you have a clear display? 01:46:44.979 --> 01:46:52.979 That's a super question. Uh I think the answer most of the time is no 01:46:54.159 --> 01:47:00.647 most of the time is no, it's probably possible 01:47:00.680 --> 01:47:04.546 the 01:47:04.579 --> 01:47:11.546 the art world of power and acknowledge acknowledgement and endorsement, 01:47:11.579 --> 01:47:19.046 becoming a public person, a celebrity. Um moving in circles of power 01:47:19.079 --> 01:47:25.147 traveling on airplanes from city to city on matters of great urgency. 01:47:25.180 --> 01:47:32.576 It's extremely seductive as everyone knows. It's it's very isolated, You 01:47:32.609 --> 01:47:37.807 can live in a city like Los Angeles and new york and become very 01:47:37.840 --> 01:47:43.967 successful with that entire game and not know very many people at all and 01:47:44.000 --> 01:47:49.906 not be very happy at all. So I think I think it's possible after it's been 01:47:49.939 --> 01:47:54.847 done because it makes it um 01:47:54.880 --> 01:48:00.866 you kind of have to do it and see that it doesn't really work, you have to 01:48:00.899 --> 01:48:05.916 reach critical mass as a professional. That is, if you started in that 01:48:05.949 --> 01:48:10.677 game and gotten into it, you have to reach the critical mass and find out 01:48:10.710 --> 01:48:13.836 that it's never going to explode. You know, nothing is ever going to 01:48:13.869 --> 01:48:17.847 happen. Everything that you do, you only you gain only the right to do 01:48:17.880 --> 01:48:22.256 some more of it, so you might as well get out of it and get into something 01:48:22.289 --> 01:48:29.036 that hasn't loved in it. And there's an old saying, there's an old chinese 01:48:29.069 --> 01:48:33.397 saying um 01:48:33.430 --> 01:48:41.430 the man who wields great power does not make a good gardener. 01:48:41.670 --> 01:48:48.737 So you kind of got to retire from the power game. 01:48:48.770 --> 01:48:52.687 Right? Well, I think, you know what I was talking about when I was talking 01:48:52.720 --> 01:48:56.937 about the power in the 01:48:56.970 --> 01:49:03.137 in the institutional art game where people are relating either to 01:49:03.170 --> 01:49:08.387 corporate power to political power. Political structures of all of my 01:49:08.420 --> 01:49:13.706 large commissions have been uh as was characteristic in an earlier 01:49:13.739 --> 01:49:19.937 discussion, they've been really contributors to supporting uh the 01:49:19.970 --> 01:49:26.336 corporate and political power structures of making, 01:49:26.369 --> 01:49:31.217 making what they already do the influence they have on our lives, making 01:49:31.250 --> 01:49:37.366 it more palatable to us. And uh I think that's one of the reasons I 01:49:37.399 --> 01:49:45.036 started building kites and stop doing that work as much, because 01:49:45.069 --> 01:49:50.937 because kids like kites, they like kites more than they like bronze. 01:49:50.970 --> 01:49:58.970 Mhm. So, I think, I think the people, the 01:49:59.770 --> 01:50:04.876 people have had a lot of experience as artists who who are attracted to 01:50:04.909 --> 01:50:09.756 this community. Uh I think there's a wealth of people that would be a 01:50:09.789 --> 01:50:13.086 track that are attracted to this community, obvious by the people here. 01:50:13.119 --> 01:50:21.119 But there are people who have um like ruth who have who have gone through 01:50:22.659 --> 01:50:28.227 a lot of the dimensions of the art world as it's and and tasted some of 01:50:28.260 --> 01:50:30.427 its fruit. 01:50:30.460 --> 01:50:35.696 I'd like to add something to that too. You see a lot of young people here 01:50:35.729 --> 01:50:42.456 and they as a rule, I would imagine do not have families, most of them 01:50:42.489 --> 01:50:47.107 probably do not have Children. They're free to move around to go to school 01:50:47.140 --> 01:50:55.067 to come here to go back to school as as an artist becomes older and I have 01:50:55.100 --> 01:50:59.057 a number of friends who are professional artists, they become more 01:50:59.090 --> 01:51:02.227 concerned with 01:51:02.260 --> 01:51:08.956 with what tom was calling power, but which may also be interpreted as a 01:51:08.989 --> 01:51:12.946 financial security for themselves and their family. You move into a bit of 01:51:12.979 --> 01:51:20.067 a family phase perhaps. And it takes going through that before the person 01:51:20.100 --> 01:51:27.369 is free to come back to this kind of a situation and perhaps to make kites. 01:51:28.359 --> 01:51:30.359 I see it as a cycle. Yeah, 01:51:35.960 --> 01:51:41.906 some of these works and I found pretty close to you. Right, quarter. All 01:51:41.939 --> 01:51:46.027 right. I'm sorry. 01:51:46.060 --> 01:51:52.826 Yeah. Like the raisins are writing essays. They find out for certain Oh 01:51:52.859 --> 01:51:56.626 yes podcast. 01:51:56.659 --> 01:52:04.659 All of a sudden you've got to find a new sense of motivation really. Yeah. 01:52:05.649 --> 01:52:13.649 Right. I bring you comfort upon with associations. A lot seems to be the 01:52:14.170 --> 01:52:20.357 artist gets out Because he tends to do two years old. It's a chance he's 01:52:20.390 --> 01:52:25.147 going to lose the very thing that he needs and always get very get a place 01:52:25.180 --> 01:52:29.677 like this because of the human associations have. But there's where you're 01:52:29.710 --> 01:52:37.710 transparent. Don't test it over from here here. It 100 millions of people. 01:52:38.949 --> 01:52:46.347 Yes. Well put well put I think it's true that uh our society is probably 01:52:46.380 --> 01:52:51.656 uh morbidly concerned with security and we kind of translate security into 01:52:51.689 --> 01:52:59.689 financial a financial worth. And in fact, the only true security um I 01:53:00.029 --> 01:53:04.196 believe comes from being part of a community because when you have human 01:53:04.229 --> 01:53:09.446 support surrounding you, that's far more secure than having a larger bank 01:53:09.479 --> 01:53:14.767 account or insurance policy. And I think that's why we feel it's important 01:53:14.800 --> 01:53:18.506 that by structuring the kind of environment that you live in, that you can 01:53:18.539 --> 01:53:22.647 promote that interchange between all the members of that society allows 01:53:22.680 --> 01:53:26.036 the community to become much more cohesive as soon as you have that 01:53:26.069 --> 01:53:31.987 ability to interchange between one person and another. So I think that's 01:53:32.020 --> 01:53:37.017 why the structuring of the way we put things together is very important. 01:53:37.050 --> 01:53:39.616 Yeah, Virginia. 01:53:39.649 --> 01:53:43.017 Yes. 01:53:43.050 --> 01:53:47.217 Today. Uh No, 01:53:47.250 --> 01:53:51.116 you have to start. 01:53:51.149 --> 01:53:55.817 Yeah. 01:53:55.850 --> 01:54:01.107 So, 01:54:01.140 --> 01:54:03.307 where? 01:54:03.340 --> 01:54:09.706 Because now is to set forth certain of the missing bills and many as a 01:54:09.739 --> 01:54:12.807 culture. 01:54:12.840 --> 01:54:18.897 So. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 01:54:18.930 --> 01:54:26.406 Art work. 01:54:26.439 --> 01:54:31.706 Mhm. All right. Can I 01:54:31.739 --> 01:54:34.506 again? 01:54:34.539 --> 01:54:36.737 Yeah. 01:54:36.770 --> 01:54:44.770 Well I was I only talk from my own experience but uh the faculty of Black 01:54:46.449 --> 01:54:52.357 Mountain at some point did not have even the salary. I mean and I think 01:54:52.390 --> 01:54:59.256 the most I think anyone ever got Was $60 a month plus room and board. And 01:54:59.289 --> 01:55:03.107 there was there were many many years when they worked for $5 a month-plus 01:55:03.140 --> 01:55:10.317 women board which gave them money for gasoline and few incidentals. But I 01:55:10.350 --> 01:55:15.576 think that young people have to have that experience. They have to be in 01:55:15.609 --> 01:55:21.397 the company of people who I mean they have to experience that with adults 01:55:21.430 --> 01:55:26.067 . I think maybe that's the important thing that young people are getting 01:55:26.100 --> 01:55:33.687 here article scenting and so that experience has made it possible for 01:55:33.720 --> 01:55:41.116 artists in san Francisco to give a lot. And instead of setting up a 01:55:41.149 --> 01:55:48.107 community they took san Francisco. The total city as a community where 01:55:48.140 --> 01:55:53.027 they brought gardeners and dancer. Performing artists and visual artists 01:55:53.060 --> 01:56:00.187 together to use artists as workers. Not as somebody who's going to help 01:56:00.220 --> 01:56:07.067 people express themselves but but artists as workers uh as psychiatrists 01:56:07.100 --> 01:56:14.246 are workers. Uh huh, probation officers, counselors are workers and use 01:56:14.279 --> 01:56:19.467 librarians or workers. Artists have never been considered workers. And by 01:56:19.500 --> 01:56:25.597 bringing the group of artists and gardeners and 01:56:25.630 --> 01:56:32.607 and and community people together, the young people have found that where 01:56:32.640 --> 01:56:37.786 they're rejected by museums and galleries, they can use the side of a 01:56:37.819 --> 01:56:44.156 building or they can use the interior of uh of the social welfare office 01:56:44.189 --> 01:56:48.647 and beautify that. Or they could use the schools or the jails or the 01:56:48.680 --> 01:56:54.737 mental hospitals and work with handicapped Children and workmen in in the 01:56:54.770 --> 01:56:59.437 Laguna Honda which is a convalescent hospital for the elderly and work in 01:56:59.470 --> 01:57:07.076 senior centers. And use the, the energy of those people who actually use 01:57:07.109 --> 01:57:11.626 those buildings, whether it is to get their welfare check or whether it's 01:57:11.659 --> 01:57:19.659 to come for tea or lunch, hot lunch. These people are, we discovered that 01:57:19.789 --> 01:57:25.897 there are many, many people who are retired actors, musicians and through 01:57:25.930 --> 01:57:32.446 the cedar program in san Francisco were able to hire uh seniors for 01:57:32.479 --> 01:57:37.807 halftime and they and the artists would come in and do the performance and 01:57:37.840 --> 01:57:43.987 then they would discover that there was a spiritual, I mean singer and or 01:57:44.020 --> 01:57:50.156 uh an actor and they would take them and go to the next senior center and 01:57:50.189 --> 01:57:54.487 they would then get them on the payroll so that they could have a little 01:57:54.520 --> 01:58:00.387 income and a little dignity and the young actors and the dancers would get 01:58:00.420 --> 01:58:08.420 something from the yeah elder um citizens and elderly citizens and and uh 01:58:09.350 --> 01:58:14.177 and then they began to get a mix of old and young together so that and 01:58:14.210 --> 01:58:20.887 then walls could be the, and so that artists who are who would never get 01:58:20.920 --> 01:58:25.027 are not concerned with the pedestal they're not concerned. I mean they 01:58:25.060 --> 01:58:30.217 would like a gallery, they would like the museum show. But in the meantime 01:58:30.250 --> 01:58:33.467 what they're doing is they're beautifying housing projects and they're 01:58:33.500 --> 01:58:37.777 doing, they're beginning to change the the shape of the city so that 01:58:37.810 --> 01:58:45.810 rather than each one of us trying to set up our own you don't thing, we 01:58:46.359 --> 01:58:54.359 used the empty schools and to be the background for our activities. And I 01:58:55.329 --> 01:59:03.286 think somehow that has allowed artists and the gardeners to become 01:59:03.319 --> 01:59:07.607 politically active because they have to get a truck from the city. And 01:59:07.640 --> 01:59:12.557 they have to find ways to make the government respond to them to serve the 01:59:12.590 --> 01:59:19.607 community, which is ourselves. And I think libraries have gotten guardians 01:59:19.640 --> 01:59:25.607 and murals because when you go to the city and they say, well it's going 01:59:25.640 --> 01:59:32.097 to cost $5,000 to remove asphalt, you know, in the backyard and it's just 01:59:32.130 --> 01:59:38.656 full of weeds. Then the neighborhood gets all of its resources. Uh as 01:59:38.689 --> 01:59:44.866 we've been active in with architects and gardeners, they all come in and 01:59:44.899 --> 01:59:51.836 we begin to change our own neighborhoods this way so that while it still 01:59:51.869 --> 01:59:57.246 belongs in a way in the its government, I mean, which we are part of. I 01:59:57.279 --> 02:00:03.916 mean we begin to we begin to take over our neighborhoods. And I think that 02:00:03.949 --> 02:00:09.397 then that makes decision making. We share all that decision making among 02:00:09.430 --> 02:00:15.807 many, many people young and old and we begin to feed our feed our 02:00:15.840 --> 02:00:22.036 neighborhoods. And I know in Chicago and the housing projects by using 02:00:22.069 --> 02:00:30.069 housing authority land, which is traditionally been not. I mean the 10ants 02:00:30.220 --> 02:00:36.427 have never been permitted to use the gardens or the lawn are now beginning 02:00:36.460 --> 02:00:42.876 to raise vegetables. So that in last week's newspaper there was an article 02:00:42.909 --> 02:00:48.376 that said that They had raised in one year, $200,000 02:00:48.409 --> 02:00:54.567 and the tenants who are welfare, you know, families are now canning 02:00:54.600 --> 02:01:00.347 tomatoes and and they're beginning to do those things that don't change 02:01:00.380 --> 02:01:04.906 have never changed. And those are the constant things and we have to begin 02:01:04.939 --> 02:01:11.567 to to allow people to do those constant things like eating and sleeping 02:01:11.600 --> 02:01:16.786 and and maintaining those never change whether you're in the past or in 02:01:16.819 --> 02:01:22.696 the future. And and somehow pickling and canning and making jam and all 02:01:22.729 --> 02:01:29.637 those things are activities that are cost effective and make people feel 02:01:29.670 --> 02:01:35.807 useful and that's in a way. And those are simple decisions that each one 02:01:35.840 --> 02:01:40.897 of us can make on our own without permission from government or going out 02:01:40.930 --> 02:01:47.307 for grants to do that. And somehow we have to begin to do all those kite 02:01:47.340 --> 02:01:52.637 making and all those, you know, things that each one of us can be 02:01:52.670 --> 02:02:00.237 motivated to do. You basically seem to be saying that it's a question of 02:02:00.270 --> 02:02:04.696 desegregating the city so that one of the basic things that seems to have 02:02:04.729 --> 02:02:09.616 happened is the zoning and that's right and control system, that city's 02:02:09.649 --> 02:02:15.677 overlay on the structure of the city itself. And as as uh, cities begin to 02:02:15.710 --> 02:02:20.796 , I mean, there's inflation and like in California, we have proposition 13 02:02:20.829 --> 02:02:26.607 with attacks, we are not going to get those city services that were, you 02:02:26.640 --> 02:02:31.996 know, like the street and from you or your sidewalk or all those things 02:02:32.029 --> 02:02:38.107 are tree planting. The people have to take those that initiative back 02:02:38.140 --> 02:02:42.267 because those are things that anybody can do. And instead of saying, no, 02:02:42.300 --> 02:02:45.847 you don't have permission. I mean, there's no reason not to have 02:02:45.880 --> 02:02:50.677 permission. There's no, not there's no reason not to have a beautiful 02:02:50.710 --> 02:02:55.076 street or, or clean sidewalk. I mean, those are things that we have to 02:02:55.109 --> 02:03:00.767 begin to doing and when, and we have to start saying, uh, we have to start 02:03:00.800 --> 02:03:05.166 teaching ourselves that we don't throw away a gum wrapper. We don't throw 02:03:05.199 --> 02:03:10.786 our peelings on the floor. We don't throw our cups around. We have to take 02:03:10.819 --> 02:03:18.256 it until we find a suitable place for it to be the dumped and we can't 02:03:18.289 --> 02:03:22.416 afford street cleaners anymore. We have to do all those things ourselves 02:03:22.449 --> 02:03:27.477 and it's very, very simple to do. It's very practical, what used to be 02:03:27.510 --> 02:03:32.196 that we're getting back to the point where tom was talking about the 02:03:32.229 --> 02:03:37.076 dangers of success because in a way, the dangers of succeeding that, uh, 02:03:37.109 --> 02:03:41.017 as soon as one becomes successful, then there's a great drive to control 02:03:41.050 --> 02:03:47.196 the success by either internally or external forces that exist within the 02:03:47.229 --> 02:03:53.317 , the institutional structure of what one has. And I think it's important 02:03:53.350 --> 02:03:57.277 to really stress that idea of self responsibility. I think that's uh 02:03:57.310 --> 02:04:01.777 something we keep trying to put over to everybody that comes here. It's 02:04:01.810 --> 02:04:05.946 also very interesting hearing you talk about the Black Mountain School, 02:04:05.979 --> 02:04:09.737 the kind of salaries that people got there because very much the same sort 02:04:09.770 --> 02:04:15.036 of thing exists at Arcosanti. And in a way it's sort of a, I guess one 02:04:15.069 --> 02:04:18.737 could call it a commitment mechanism to the idea that one has to go 02:04:18.770 --> 02:04:25.206 through a readjustment of values to become part of this uh experiment that 02:04:25.239 --> 02:04:29.477 we're trying out the question that's raised by this whole idea of the 02:04:29.510 --> 02:04:32.456 critical mass is 02:04:32.489 --> 02:04:37.777 how can we uh integrate see people who are working in a normative 02:04:37.810 --> 02:04:44.006 situation into this sort of unique situation? Because we have a a little 02:04:44.039 --> 02:04:47.906 island in the middle of a society that has a whole different set of values 02:04:47.939 --> 02:04:52.946 sometimes, or at least that's how it feels sometimes. Um, and how can we 02:04:52.979 --> 02:04:58.036 absorb all those people from that society without necessarily overwhelming 02:04:58.069 --> 02:05:04.126 the ethic that exists within this small nucleus of you represent the 02:05:04.159 --> 02:05:09.057 individual. I think whether you're a group here, you still you still 02:05:09.090 --> 02:05:15.177 represent the idea what an individual can do and the strength of an 02:05:15.210 --> 02:05:22.487 individual. And I think that that an artist is always alien no matter how 02:05:22.520 --> 02:05:26.727 many friends he has. I mean out there in the society out there in the city 02:05:26.760 --> 02:05:34.760 , you are isolated, You're not, I mean, you have the same problems. I mean 02:05:35.350 --> 02:05:39.897 if you were an artist trying to work in the schools, you have the same 02:05:39.930 --> 02:05:46.126 alien nation. So I think it it's the same thing that you're you made a 02:05:46.159 --> 02:05:48.557 deal with 02:05:48.590 --> 02:05:52.107 the outside community. I don't mean just phoenix. I'm just saying that you 02:05:52.140 --> 02:05:58.977 are an idea and I think that yes, and so that hopefully all the young 02:05:59.010 --> 02:06:06.017 people that go through Arcosanti will go out there and not feel afraid to 02:06:06.050 --> 02:06:12.036 be isolated. And I think that that's an important thing that we learned at 02:06:12.069 --> 02:06:20.069 Black Mountain was that we were going to expect our whole life to be, you 02:06:20.680 --> 02:06:27.357 know, with confrontations of some sort and you just have to adapt or or 02:06:27.390 --> 02:06:30.946 flow or go with it 02:06:30.979 --> 02:06:35.857 mainly not to be afraid. 02:06:35.890 --> 02:06:38.826 See, I don't know if we really don't know how much time we have. I don't 02:06:38.859 --> 02:06:42.607 know if we've addressed any of the solutions to critical mass, but really 02:06:42.640 --> 02:06:47.357 , okay, here's the solution. It's not a solution. It's an avoidance of 02:06:47.390 --> 02:06:52.506 solution. I wish for Arcosanti 02:06:52.539 --> 02:06:59.076 that it never reaches critical mass, that it always stays just short of 02:06:59.109 --> 02:07:06.887 its aspirations, stays just short of of power stays just short of prestige 02:07:06.920 --> 02:07:14.246 , stays just short of financial independence. 02:07:14.279 --> 02:07:18.256 Um, 02:07:18.289 --> 02:07:26.289 I apologize maybe for it, but that is the optimum state of health for this. 02:07:27.239 --> 02:07:31.046 Maybe, maybe, 02:07:31.079 --> 02:07:36.307 you know, I think I appreciate the, the energy that you bring together. I 02:07:36.340 --> 02:07:41.156 think it's a very exciting thing to have all everyone here like this, but 02:07:41.189 --> 02:07:46.836 I think that it would also be nice to have you do it, but be nice to kind 02:07:46.869 --> 02:07:52.946 of spread this kind of thing out throughout the years so that you have, 02:07:52.979 --> 02:08:00.866 you don't have it all at once and then, you know, but I realized that you 02:08:00.899 --> 02:08:06.836 do have artists coming all time. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I 02:08:06.869 --> 02:08:10.446 think that's the most wonderful statement. 02:08:10.479 --> 02:08:14.536 Um, and that sort of overcomes that dangerous success that you're talking 02:08:14.569 --> 02:08:18.897 about doing things and considering the fact that we've always been on that 02:08:18.930 --> 02:08:23.036 brink and we've done quite well being that way. And I don't see there's 02:08:23.069 --> 02:08:25.826 gonna be anything, it's 02:08:25.859 --> 02:08:29.366 going to be any advantage in getting any here huge sums of money. We don't 02:08:29.399 --> 02:08:31.399 needhelp