WEBVTT

00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:06.596
 but it's, it's an and can any sort of communications vehicle because it

00:00:06.629 --> 00:00:11.707
trivializes even that, which is
important, and therefore, to see, say, a

00:00:11.740 --> 00:00:18.276
news item juxtaposed with an
advertisement for soap or something like that

00:00:18.309 --> 00:00:22.666
is a terrifying just positioning. So
it trivializes, I don't know whether

00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:26.236
one can call it mediocre as such, but
it trivializes things to a point

00:00:26.269 --> 00:00:28.947
where we've become insensitive and
that's had a lot of doubt. That's

00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:33.057
created a lot of harm and no doubt
there's much damage to be seen in

00:00:33.090 --> 00:00:37.417
society from it. But I don't think of
television as a leisure pursuit as a

00:00:37.450 --> 00:00:41.357
leisure opportunity. I've given you an
example, I did that very

00:00:41.390 --> 00:00:46.537
deliberately when I was speaking at
the outset in a way showing a way in

00:00:46.570 --> 00:00:51.247
which television and radio can be used
very constructively for didactic

00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:56.726
educational purposes and be highly
successful. That open university system

00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:03.326
in the UK, I mentioned, it's not just
a minor, um, Thing in British Life,

00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:09.036
there's something like 240 people
involved in the whole activity, but they

00:01:09.069 --> 00:01:13.036
are those people who are prepared to
make the choice of being involved in

00:01:13.069 --> 00:01:17.346
that activity and therefore going back
to the whole crunch question of man

00:01:17.379 --> 00:01:22.286
looking after himself, then ultimately
makes the choice of what he is

00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:27.436
going to do in terms of his leisure
time himself. And if he cares to sit

00:01:27.469 --> 00:01:33.527
in front of the television, sir, I
wonder how beside legislating for the

00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.536
things that paolo and other people
would want, we could shift them from

00:01:37.569 --> 00:01:43.247
that position, except there's every
indication that he's bored bored stiff

00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:47.747
by it anyhow and that public
television itself is making some tremendous

00:01:47.780 --> 00:01:54.027
inroads into a dull and boring system.
In addition to public, Excuse me.

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In addition to public television, I
think, I think it comes back to the

00:01:58.129 --> 00:02:06.129
issue of creating possibilities and
opportunities. Now. Cable television

00:02:06.140 --> 00:02:14.140
for a long time has been in a kind of
uncreative um period initially was

00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:20.846
considered having tremendous
possibilities. It's now experiencing in some

00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:25.406
studies and certainly in new york, a
very significant change in

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renaissance at any given time. I can
turn on my television set and not

00:02:31.300 --> 00:02:35.057
watch the trivia you're talking about.
And not only have the opportunity

00:02:35.090 --> 00:02:40.346
to look at public broadcasting,
educational tv, but also see five or six

00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:44.846
different cable shows, including shows
that our public access shows where

00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:50.186
anyone can go on cable and talk about
any political issue, any art issue,

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their artists, talking about their
work, their poets, reading poetry. Uh

00:02:54.639 --> 00:03:00.457
that in itself is a new, a new
possibility. And I uh I for one feel that

00:03:00.490 --> 00:03:05.476
that's going to expand enormously and
the uh and be a source of a new kind

00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:10.647
of creativity. I would also like to
respond to that if I can't talk long

00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:15.777
enough, it's not blood enough to reach
my chin, but I think television

00:03:15.810 --> 00:03:20.596
perhaps is too huge to even call it a
mediocre. Its influence is so

00:03:20.629 --> 00:03:28.629
overpowering. Um and it is not as I
agree with mel, it is not necessary

00:03:30.219 --> 00:03:36.967
that we see mediocre things on
television. One of the issues of television

00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:44.027
is the passivity of sitting in front
of it even um as a point of physical

00:03:44.060 --> 00:03:52.060
health and well being. But more than
that, I think that

00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:58.467
the main danger of television is the
same danger that face is America

00:03:58.500 --> 00:04:06.500
everywhere in that the powered is

00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:09.886
one of

00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:15.406
the people in power are not there to
lead and the people in power are not

00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:22.027
there to share their knowledge. The
people in power are still a part of a

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system I think is dying and we'll
probably have to go till its natural end

00:04:28.939 --> 00:04:34.587
of playing. I've got a secret and I
know something you don't know and

00:04:34.620 --> 00:04:38.156
everything I know that you don't know
is going to make me more powerful or

00:04:38.189 --> 00:04:44.267
richer. The opposite of that is here's
something I know, maybe it will be

00:04:44.300 --> 00:04:50.906
helpful. Um so that if we just turn
the attitude around television can be

00:04:50.939 --> 00:04:54.207
used the other way.

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Can I make a commercial advertisement
at this moment? Since we're talking

00:04:57.910 --> 00:05:05.467
about television? Uh there is being
established the Arcosanti Association

00:05:05.500 --> 00:05:13.166
of Media ethics and aesthetics, which
makes army, isn't it A. M. E. Have

00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:15.707
you heard of this?

00:05:15.740 --> 00:05:22.056
This is paolo Soleri's latest Brain
baby. Um and it is meant to bring

00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:26.496
together listen to this, bring
together clergy, that's ministers of the

00:05:26.529 --> 00:05:34.017
Kirk priests and the like clergy,
artists and ecologists do you fit into

00:05:34.050 --> 00:05:37.637
these categories because if so you
better join. I don't know what the

00:05:37.670 --> 00:05:42.496
subscription is, but that's part of
the document. That's partly a joke.

00:05:42.529 --> 00:05:47.986
But it's very as I understand, Solar
is thinking it's he sees a type of

00:05:48.019 --> 00:05:53.577
crisis. He says that religion in the
form of those who practice as

00:05:53.610 --> 00:05:58.147
professional teachers of religion,
that these people should be coming to

00:05:58.180 --> 00:06:03.606
arcosanti, that they should the media,
people who have enormous power

00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:09.827
should be coming here and those who
are concerned with the environment

00:06:09.860 --> 00:06:14.267
generally, he makes a play for
establishing this is what he calls a

00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:22.300
critical mass. I hope it isn't a
critical mess Jack. Uh, a major center on

00:06:23.019 --> 00:06:28.536
the surface of the earth for exploring
new habits of thinking and habits

00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:31.906
of living and habits of building.

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That's the end of the commercial.

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Yes.

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Ask ask Carlos scenario because he's
gone. It's all your next please.

00:06:47.339 --> 00:06:53.567
Oh, come on. My friend and colleague
from frescoes, Sam Henry. I'd just

00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.647
like to make a few unpopular
statements in response to some of the things

00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:03.726
you've been saying. Uh, one thing is
disturbing me is that you seem to be

00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:09.207
comparing the kind of mind that a da
Vinci or Beethoven has with the

00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:16.866
average guy who's down bowling and
expecting that my neighbor who spends

00:07:16.899 --> 00:07:19.967
his time drinking beer and bowling and
watching television should be out

00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:26.416
producing or at least appreciating
works of that quality. And I just like

00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:33.246
to remind you about the bell curve
that The Q of 100 is the center of the

00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:38.106
curve. Which means that half the
population fall below 100 now. What what

00:07:38.139 --> 00:07:42.536
do you think of the I. Q. Test is
rather irrelevant because whatever tests

00:07:42.569 --> 00:07:47.796
we might devise we're gonna find out
that a great mass of humanity has a

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very low capacity. And I

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I think that that fellow if I know him
and I think I do know him doesn't

00:07:57.180 --> 00:08:03.017
understand the difference between a
joke to painting and the face he sees

00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:07.246
on a Marlboro ad and furthermore, he's
incapable of seeing that difference.

00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.656
And I think genius has always been
some tiny percent of the human race

00:08:11.689 --> 00:08:18.356
who are in a very uhh have a very
privileged capacity because of a great

00:08:18.389 --> 00:08:26.389
nervous system that they have. And I
would just like to not see us knock

00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:31.236
the whole human race because they are
not of that quality. Uh People are

00:08:31.269 --> 00:08:38.636
going to use their leisure time in
ways which we may disapprove. Perhaps

00:08:38.669 --> 00:08:42.567
that's all the capacity they have. Um
I'd like to just bring up a couple

00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:46.606
of other points in relation to this. I
also think that the discussion of

00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.276
genius and the lack of genius in the
20th century is very misguided in

00:08:50.309 --> 00:08:54.116
that I believe that there's a great
deal of genius. For example, we're

00:08:54.149 --> 00:08:59.006
seeing in this century at least two
major societies which have tried for

00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:03.126
the first time to create from the
ground up an entire society. It's

00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:06.876
economics, it's politics, it's culture
and everything. I think they're

00:09:06.909 --> 00:09:11.106
miserable failures. And I'm speaking
to particularly of Russia and china,

00:09:11.139 --> 00:09:17.246
but I I applaud or at least I'm in awe
of this great effort because to my

00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:22.207
knowledge, there's never been a time
in history when people had the daring

00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:29.707
to start and create something from the
ground up in this way. And

00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:34.047
I'm impressed with other kinds of
genius that we see. I just reading an

00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:42.080
article in which uh it said that one
rocket can be sent from ah a point,

00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:48.467
you know, several 1000 ft under the
ocean and it can distribute fairly

00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:54.646
accurately warheads in an area like
boston to kill 20 or 30 million people

00:09:54.679 --> 00:10:00.756
at once? That's an act of great
genius. That's a monument to the genius of

00:10:00.789 --> 00:10:03.616
mankind. No one has ever produced a
monument like that before. It's a

00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:09.246
horror, but it's a great piece of
genius. The Bank of America. You know,

00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:15.157
it's it's incredible what the Bank of
America can do. Um If we were to

00:10:15.190 --> 00:10:20.016
look at at the achievements in space,
I mean, great, great acts of genius

00:10:20.049 --> 00:10:24.236
that have occurred in this genius.
Well, that's a whole other issue. If

00:10:24.269 --> 00:10:26.687
you want to get into, Well, would you
say for instance that Beethoven was

00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:30.817
, was an individual piece of genius. I
I know that Beethoven was standing

00:10:30.850 --> 00:10:37.996
on the shoulders of hummel and uh
heighten and Mozart and Beethoven on

00:10:38.029 --> 00:10:43.217
this side as well. Some can burn about
a okay, I'll put Bernard von Brahm

00:10:43.250 --> 00:10:46.547
against Beethoven. I mean they're both
they're both part of a team. Even

00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:52.707
though Beethoven, his team is very
interrupt this dialogue. Thank you.

00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:59.407
Other people would like coming song

00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:07.440
like a microphone here. We can't hear
you saw

00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:19.396
unfortunately not statistically
oriented. If you used charlie Ames's

00:11:19.429 --> 00:11:24.437
mathematical model, you would find out
that in every field of human

00:11:24.470 --> 00:11:32.470
activity that the increase in quality
follows a parabolic curve.

00:11:33.740 --> 00:11:40.707
Check that out. Mm hmm. And what are
we gonna do about leisure time? Mhm

00:11:40.740 --> 00:11:47.157
Uh huh. That's where we started. It
emphasizes a lot of things. Human

00:11:47.190 --> 00:11:51.136
genius comes from human beings and
there are more of us and there are more

00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:55.126
of us that are being subjected to more
and more and more quality. Things

00:11:55.159 --> 00:12:00.667
like this experience at arcosanti. You
know, I mean this is Arizona, it

00:12:00.700 --> 00:12:06.937
beats California all to help see. So,
you know, it's that kind of a thing

00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:13.937
that produces that genius that you
should know about this stuff. This is

00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:18.437
this is statistically wrong.
Absolutely wrong. I deny this. Absolutely.

00:12:18.470 --> 00:12:23.287
Look here. Look, well, I don't know
what that means. Look, this is my

00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:28.297
simple fact, 100% of the people of
America, 200 something million people

00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:34.266
can read and write. And in ancient
Athens, 400 years before Christ a small

00:12:34.299 --> 00:12:40.606
percentage perhaps 10 10% of the
population of 300,000 to 50,000 produced

00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:44.976
enormous quantities of Genius. How
many geniuses coming out of the public

00:12:45.009 --> 00:12:49.557
schools of England if you like for
that matter. Damn little. It is not in

00:12:49.590 --> 00:12:55.317
proportion. I just don't think you can
measure it, measure it in those

00:12:55.350 --> 00:13:00.707
terms. I really do. Yeah, sure. But

00:13:00.740 --> 00:13:04.217
look, it's getting late and I would
take one more question that we're just

00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:11.197
gonna Mhm Yeah. With this panel
continues tomorrow morning. So for those

00:13:11.230 --> 00:13:19.230
of you have a lot to say or whatever.
Come back. Yes, please.

00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:33.340
Hard work.

00:14:04.539 --> 00:14:08.307
Thank you. I'd like to thank the
panelists and the audience for being here

00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:13.986
can and we are going to continue
tomorrow. You think people will respond

00:14:14.019 --> 00:14:22.019
to that comment tomorrow? Okay, I
think it's 10:00 AM. I'm not sure

00:14:29.539 --> 00:14:34.807
that means. My name is jenny Gignac,

00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:41.976
howard, woody Phyllis. Ian Pawlowski
and chris

00:14:42.009 --> 00:14:47.106
I've been chosen to start because I
have a prepared text

00:14:47.139 --> 00:14:50.746
and the text is not very relevant
because I wrote it when I thought the

00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:57.687
topic was art as event, meaning what
was the Peculiar significance of the

00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.106
happenings of the 60's

00:15:01.139 --> 00:15:07.006
And in response to what I thought was
going to be the topic I wrote

00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.896
in the season of the Lord. When Earth
people began to suffocate from

00:15:10.929 --> 00:15:16.407
socially refined time and space. When
folks began to freak in and out onto

00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:21.886
a spiraling pad. When the system had
spun out its length of rope, showing

00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:25.057
the light at the end of the tunnel.
and the part at the end of the rainbow

00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:29.547
to be big jokes when the line curled
to eat its tail and the rivers on

00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:34.907
which we float evaporated, leaving us
to learn how to free float or fall

00:15:34.940 --> 00:15:39.587
when foregone conclusions lost their
gravity and border surfaces crumbled.

00:15:39.620 --> 00:15:43.907
And the only thing to hold onto was
the hub of the vertigo. It's I the

00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:49.807
only portal. The big picture began to
be seriously revised

00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:54.787
in its forced review. Everything
became a clue slice the lemon anyway at

00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:59.447
all and see the world blow up the
cherry pit into inspirational

00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:05.077
architecture, freeze a beat and find
inside the rise and fall of infinity.

00:16:05.110 --> 00:16:10.577
It was an irradiating examination. No
one could just watch and that's

00:16:10.610 --> 00:16:17.207
caught in the act. Some hid and some
strut id some squirmed and some shown

00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.596
some study their responsibilities,
Some penetrated the possibilities of

00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:27.557
new gestures so it's better to perform
upon this pervasive stage. The art

00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:33.157
angel stroll or strode or danced or
tiptoed beckoning or teasing behind a

00:16:33.190 --> 00:16:38.187
beam carrying his sector of the open
frame, popping it about the shrapnel

00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:42.537
in the wind catching times and minds
that otherwise might be too big or

00:16:42.570 --> 00:16:47.707
small or slow or fast to behold
footsteps and fingers. Words and clauses,

00:16:47.740 --> 00:16:53.246
causes and songs. Singers and flags,
fires and pain. Flowers enjoy white

00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:57.817
and black round and square, loud and
soft on and off people in places,

00:16:57.850 --> 00:17:03.596
houses and ours, cars and soap birds
and toothpaste votes and puddings,

00:17:03.629 --> 00:17:08.246
post guards and clouds the good and
the bad, assisting the ancient revival

00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.897
of all parts to the whole adding to
the efforts of the Medicaid ear's who

00:17:12.930 --> 00:17:18.147
were assuring the people they were
free to expand or contract now and then

00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:26.180
now or then it didn't matter they were
part of the play anyway.

00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.207
Mhm.

00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:38.240
That is the end of my prepared
statement. I'll pass the buck. Yeah. Mhm. I

00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:42.647
guess hard act to follow I think
however as we view events and

00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:48.336
celebrations often the two of them
kind of go hand in hand. From my own

00:17:48.369 --> 00:17:54.316
perspective I think it's very
delightful to free art from museums and from

00:17:54.349 --> 00:18:02.349
confines and monasteries and the like
to try to move out into the world to

00:18:03.569 --> 00:18:10.367
go into places whether one is viewing
it is parks or beaches or other

00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.496
places where people are to have sort
of participation, things whether

00:18:14.529 --> 00:18:18.877
people can become part of it. I think
this is part of the celebration

00:18:18.910 --> 00:18:26.187
aspect. one is locked into some sort
of Conceivably 8-5 Grand and when one

00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:30.046
tries to escape it it is sort of in
celebration whether it is to a beach

00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:35.927
or to a fair or or whatever and trying
to have the art, they're having it

00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:42.086
a part of the the pleasurable
experience is one aspect of the celebration

00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:49.556
and I think trying to break down the
so called guards at the entrances to

00:18:49.589 --> 00:18:53.627
galleries who's saying hands off don't
touch don't don't become a part of

00:18:53.660 --> 00:18:59.697
it to a situation where you invite
people in to become a part of it. Very

00:18:59.730 --> 00:19:03.677
advantageous. I think once you try to
relate to the spirit of the

00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:08.657
particular time of day and the
consideration of events or of celebration

00:19:08.690 --> 00:19:16.407
is trying to relate to our own society
today.

00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:21.046
You see one of the problems we find, I
think we're all in a court. So I

00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:26.506
would like to some point that some of
you, the audience will just maybe

00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:30.526
give us a challenge also. So we can
really make much more sort of

00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:36.397
interrelation of all of us a
celebration. It is in general when you say

00:19:36.430 --> 00:19:40.736
celebration. I think that everyone
thinks that a group of people, I think

00:19:40.769 --> 00:19:46.417
that you can celebrate also on your
own and it can be as meaningful as you

00:19:46.450 --> 00:19:50.887
know with someone or with an enormous
quantity. I think the best example

00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:55.306
of celebration is what we are doing in
these four days here in Arcosanti.

00:19:55.339 --> 00:20:00.637
Whoever has experienced to spend the
days here and really participate in

00:20:00.670 --> 00:20:05.006
some way with all of us. I think it's
just the best celebration we would

00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:11.006
have in a long time maybe until next
year. The

00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.776
I think also celebration for me is
sort of because it asserted relation

00:20:15.809 --> 00:20:21.986
with a ritual listings, I work with
fire and fire has very, very embedded

00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:25.707
in rituals and magic and everything
else. I think that that's why I

00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:29.107
observe it in that way.

00:20:29.140 --> 00:20:32.256
I think we have a fantastic artist at
the end of the table that he does

00:20:32.289 --> 00:20:37.276
really something with celebration.
He's always you know, flying. He's

00:20:37.309 --> 00:20:45.107
flags and that's you. That's my Us
too.

00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:52.627
Flags an old tradition festivity
celebration. And I believe flags lift

00:20:52.660 --> 00:21:00.660
people's spirit two. I feel happy and
that's a good ground.

00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:09.440
And they also did you can define the
space where No, instead of work in

00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.306
this.

00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:23.339
So this ancient feeling of wind which
is lifting. How is Yes,

00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:32.707
physical gives us. Mhm.

00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:36.306
Like

00:21:36.339 --> 00:21:43.707
its people to them this when does is
moving in.

00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:48.707
I am

00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:55.707
when when interest in flags

00:21:55.740 --> 00:22:03.607
medium was always supposed to trying
to get flagged the wind.

00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:07.576
I mean, things have changed in
people's mind to change something

00:22:07.609 --> 00:22:15.407
perishable is Yeah.

00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:22.407
Flags are Persian

00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:28.707
i is an important.

00:22:28.740 --> 00:22:36.107
Okay, I have a dispute. Good. We were
worried that we'd agree too much.

00:22:36.140 --> 00:22:44.140
But one of the traps is this either or
um and its inherent in the way this

00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:51.857
panel is described that we're supposed
to champion all art that is

00:22:51.890 --> 00:22:59.890
temporary and kinetic and new as being
better than art in museums. No. Um

00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:12.640
But the feeling was that you accept
that Okay, good.

00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:19.036
Is um that every time there's a new
advent, it's better than what just

00:23:19.069 --> 00:23:27.069
passed. Ah There were a lot of very
appropriate reasons of why Things

00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:32.187
started to change in the 60s. I tried
to do it in the poem. I tried to

00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:39.726
explain it as the way I thought, but
in the whole the whole impetus of

00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:47.759
motion and time um in the quick change
of lifestyles in somebody's

00:23:48.099 --> 00:23:52.127
inherent in somebody's statement that
a new generation is now every three

00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:59.717
years. Uh everything was images
quickly following one another and the

00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:05.707
frame around an event, which was one
of the features of the happening

00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:13.516
became very logical. Um, I worked for
several years designing and

00:24:13.549 --> 00:24:19.256
producing festivals and I retired from
that to go back to just being a

00:24:19.289 --> 00:24:26.217
plain old painter. Um so for me it's
very hard to accept the importance of

00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:30.107
one over the other.

00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:34.306
Do you think that really since you
have said that for me in a way, you

00:24:34.339 --> 00:24:37.736
know, the best art is the future art.
The one that is coming not the one I

00:24:37.769 --> 00:24:42.687
have done and the one that's going to
be produced. I said that no, I mean

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:47.316
for me, I'm saying that you know like,
okay fine. The works are in the

00:24:47.349 --> 00:24:51.836
museum. I think they have a place if
those works somehow they would have

00:24:51.869 --> 00:24:57.266
never been done. We were we would be
doing them now. All right. Because we

00:24:57.299 --> 00:25:01.707
have to sort of an escalation is a
sort of evolution is a sort of a change.

00:25:01.740 --> 00:25:06.506
So we need that thing like basics to
go. But also I think celebration in

00:25:06.539 --> 00:25:11.086
itself has always been done and you
know, since I think it's either since

00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.107
the start of times

00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:20.847
this year. Yeah, I think a couple of
things have, in a way disturbed me

00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:28.880
about quote object art, which I enjoy
still ah want to see occur. But to

00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:35.217
me it seems that in many cases the,
you might say enthusiasm in the

00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:42.917
interest of the society of going to
this dark controlled environmental, a

00:25:42.950 --> 00:25:50.387
museum with guards and guns and the
like the attendance rates in too many

00:25:50.420 --> 00:25:56.167
cases have seemed to be declining the
interest of the individuals to these

00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:03.256
seem to be bordering on. Are they
really relevant? I've heard numbers of

00:26:03.289 --> 00:26:06.526
directors or whatever you know concern
themselves with what can we do to

00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:14.559
get people in etcetera etcetera. I
think to a large degree as our society

00:26:15.650 --> 00:26:20.137
maybe has become somewhat of a
passive, you know, tv indoctrinated thing.

00:26:20.170 --> 00:26:24.397
We sit in front of the tube and all
the information comes on, one goes and

00:26:24.430 --> 00:26:30.667
sees static paintings or sculptures or
whatever and are we being really

00:26:30.700 --> 00:26:36.336
energized and turned on by these. That
one of the possibilities. One of

00:26:36.369 --> 00:26:44.369
the advantages of the exploration in
which one can hopefully

00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:49.697
sort of like a magnet attracts people
into it is to allow them to become

00:26:49.730 --> 00:26:55.917
part of the activity to let them have
some feeling that there can be a

00:26:55.950 --> 00:27:00.826
celebration if you want a
participation into it. Certainly it is more

00:27:00.859 --> 00:27:06.806
ephemeral, it is not uh, concluding in
some object, it is something which

00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:11.556
like the football game of the valet or
whatever. One simply leaves and the

00:27:11.589 --> 00:27:18.167
memory is basically what is going to
remain with those that viewed or were

00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:23.796
participants. But I think to varying
degrees, many individuals in our

00:27:23.829 --> 00:27:29.857
society are challenging the relevance
of some of the so called established

00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:34.526
things. Whether it is museums are, are
the uh, general, somebody in the

00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:40.107
town square or whatever. And as we can
try to relate to the side of the

00:27:40.140 --> 00:27:46.437
society, capture their spirit. Uh,
have them become sort of integrated

00:27:46.470 --> 00:27:53.736
into it that there is a, an
opportunity to become more of a very valid and

00:27:53.769 --> 00:28:01.769
vibrant part instead of just this
quiet thing that hangs on the wall.

00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:08.306
Yeah,

00:28:08.339 --> 00:28:12.407
celebration I think is an attitude.

00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:16.107
Anything can be a celebration.

00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:21.447
There's a book called the american
Book of Days lists all of the holidays.

00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:26.117
Every day is every day in the calendar
has a whole list under it, of

00:28:26.150 --> 00:28:28.506
holidays.

00:28:28.539 --> 00:28:34.806
Um, I remember January six being

00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:41.437
blessings of the sponge divers in
Tarpon springs florida day. Uh, January

00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:49.470
two is hat day, but every day is a
holiday And in that way. Also every

00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:55.607
moment of every day can be a
celebration.

00:28:55.640 --> 00:29:03.640
Um, so that celebration as a format is
like most things that get titled

00:29:04.750 --> 00:29:12.086
and pigeon holed. A very socially
contemporary geographical constricting

00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:16.107
terms. What?

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:24.140
Yeah. What is your jenny jenny? What
jenny said about

00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:29.306
if we didn't have everything in the
museum's, we'd be doing it now there's

00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:33.976
part of that, that I agree with them.
Part of that I object to

00:29:34.009 --> 00:29:40.367
every society is a culture in that it
takes elements that are never

00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:46.617
reproduced again to germinate and
create words and pictures and rituals

00:29:46.650 --> 00:29:54.650
and motions. Um, just because they
have been done does not mean on the one

00:29:55.009 --> 00:30:03.009
hand that they are any less important
or any less valuable than what is

00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.826
going to be done. Nor does it mean
they are more valuable than that, which

00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:15.016
we do ourselves. And it is true, every
society does invent its own culture

00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:18.167
and its own rituals, even though
they're not very visible all the time to

00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:26.200
us. But they're, they're nevertheless,
um, I once almost did a project and

00:30:27.809 --> 00:30:33.947
it's kind of relevant to that. The
task was, it was at the last minute

00:30:33.980 --> 00:30:40.006
wasn't funded, which was why I didn't
do it. The task was how to create,

00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:47.197
um, a cross section, how to take a
small average town or city in the

00:30:47.230 --> 00:30:53.546
United States and make it cultural or
art conscious or creative. And the

00:30:53.579 --> 00:31:00.086
way I wanted to do that was I wanted
to create as a game, a moratorium on

00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:08.056
all produced cultural objects and
events, uh, imported, um, that perhaps

00:31:08.089 --> 00:31:15.187
for the period of six months, all of
the music, poetry, literature and

00:31:15.220 --> 00:31:20.736
paintings and sculpture and events,
etcetera, etcetera that the people in

00:31:20.769 --> 00:31:27.246
that community needed would be
produced in their locale. So that is

00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.617
something of recognizing the necessity
for ritual recognizing the

00:31:32.650 --> 00:31:40.086
necessity for celebration. But what's
been done is always just uh no

00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:46.006
better. No worse than what will be
done. Um

00:31:46.039 --> 00:31:52.427
Also I wanted to comment on what
somebody said about museums are having a

00:31:52.460 --> 00:31:57.826
hard time with attendance. I don't
think that one too because yesterday I

00:31:57.859 --> 00:32:02.197
was sitting right here in a panel
where mel roman on my left discussing

00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:10.230
leisure time gave as an example of the
opposite condition. The grandiose

00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:14.407
enlargement of museum attendance
statistics.

00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:21.066
Um As proof that we're getting more
cultural. Yeah. Mhm. You don't need to

00:32:21.099 --> 00:32:26.437
be. Well I don't know. I think the
most important thing I would like to

00:32:26.470 --> 00:32:30.806
all of you to see if you have any
ideas of what are your impressions that

00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:35.986
you know I like to I'm much more in a
1-1 basis that you know to tell you

00:32:36.019 --> 00:32:40.226
what. I think there's no response
whatsoever. Yeah. There have been great

00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:48.259
.

00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.147
I think that's based nice of you to
say that you know to have that feeling

00:33:01.180 --> 00:33:06.927
for it. You but you saw it last night?
Did you feel like celebrating you

00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:14.960
know with something?

00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:24.417
Yeah because you're renovating your,
changing your you know. Yeah. Yes

00:33:24.450 --> 00:33:28.217
it's an ever end. Have you seen the
polls this morning watching them

00:33:28.250 --> 00:33:33.187
because they are incredible. They are
you know burned on the top and so

00:33:33.220 --> 00:33:41.220
they make you know in a statement all
themselves now the game.

00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.607
That's fine.

00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:52.006
That's right and that's a statistic.
Yeah.

00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:57.076
Mhm Well actually we are, you know,
even when we get, you know when we die

00:33:57.109 --> 00:34:02.917
, you know it's just a transformation
even with just the physical part we

00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:06.607
have the little worms for that.

00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:10.606
So it would never end

00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.467
anyone else. Come on. We if we know we
are going to finish and then we

00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:20.856
were we thought and do impossible love
him he's here is because we want

00:34:20.889 --> 00:34:28.889
for all of you to celebrate with us.
Okay.

00:35:09.739 --> 00:35:15.686
Actually you see for me right, and
it's a very personal thing, people ask

00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:21.717
me, what have I prepared what I mean
with that truly absolutely nothing

00:35:21.750 --> 00:35:25.936
said void. I know what the way I'm
working with, I'm working with fire and

00:35:25.969 --> 00:35:29.057
working with the flame. I'm using the
fires and element completely in

00:35:29.090 --> 00:35:35.206
itself. If I'm going to make it send a
message to give something or having

00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:39.296
a relation with other people, I want
other people to just let them say

00:35:39.329 --> 00:35:44.497
free look at it. I had the best
comment last night, it was sort of dull

00:35:44.530 --> 00:35:48.537
and I think that's great, right?
Because that is the other extreme

00:35:48.570 --> 00:35:52.247
everyone was screaming and so the
other extreme was that one which I think

00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:56.356
is fantastic. But at least they say
something at least someone, you know

00:35:56.389 --> 00:36:03.396
some people that give thoughts if I
can just sort of make it look at five

00:36:03.429 --> 00:36:08.776
the next time you see as much light
it, you may relate with Arcosanti,

00:36:08.809 --> 00:36:12.967
forget my name. I'm just one little
person and millions of other person

00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.666
that they have worked somehow. Water
with fire and you might make a sort

00:36:16.699 --> 00:36:20.986
of a ritual in itself is sort of being
conscious of what you are, you're

00:36:21.019 --> 00:36:24.756
accenting, that's all that's you know,
that's for me, that's the fantastic

00:36:24.789 --> 00:36:30.736
part. The other fantastic part. I like
the idea of last in a very short

00:36:30.769 --> 00:36:33.617
time, a light idea that they're not
forever. You know that it's changed,

00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:37.796
it's gone, I like that,

00:36:37.829 --> 00:36:43.097
that's it now you are.

00:36:43.130 --> 00:36:47.387
Mhm. Well for those of you who may not
be familiar with what I'm doing or

00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:54.856
did not have the chance to see the
presentation yesterday. My activities

00:36:54.889 --> 00:37:00.787
in sky sculpture and the launch of
that will be tomorrow. I was commenting

00:37:00.820 --> 00:37:08.697
today that it's almost like December
24. Tomorrow is christmas, I've got

00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:15.666
this, this package all wrapped up, My
response system is in there and it's

00:37:15.699 --> 00:37:18.947
like sitting there looking at the tree
and here's this box, you know,

00:37:18.980 --> 00:37:23.126
what's going to be in it. Is it going
to have, you know, something that I

00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:28.477
really am going to get a good feeling
out of a celebration if you want to

00:37:28.510 --> 00:37:30.666
use the term,

00:37:30.699 --> 00:37:37.756
it's there as a puppet almost waiting
to be energized tomorrow when

00:37:37.789 --> 00:37:42.197
christmas comes, I'll have a chance to
take it out of the wrapping, so to

00:37:42.230 --> 00:37:49.677
speak. They get out of the box,
inflate it and have it ready to be poised.

00:37:49.710 --> 00:37:56.387
It is a response element in that it is
designed to certain sort of series

00:37:56.420 --> 00:38:02.666
of potential action qualities. But it
is directly relating to the uh air

00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:08.787
environment. It will do just what the
energy in the sky will have it do.

00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:13.097
And I don't know what that's going to
be, I'm going to be uhh you know,

00:38:13.130 --> 00:38:17.117
sitting there on the edge of my seat
saying a few good words, please God

00:38:17.150 --> 00:38:24.006
let it do a real neat thing and then
you know, it will be released or

00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:28.436
launched. It will move with the air. I
have no further control to it. It

00:38:28.469 --> 00:38:34.856
can go up, it can do all sorts of
Ballets or convolutions in the sky as

00:38:34.889 --> 00:38:39.327
the 60-foot unit will go through a
whole series of movements. The plane

00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:43.387
will track it. Usually I have the
opportunity of following it. So I feel

00:38:43.420 --> 00:38:48.736
like I have uh my dog on a leash, so
to speak is that the leash doesn't

00:38:48.769 --> 00:38:51.916
have any control on it. I sort of go
along and you have a chance to see

00:38:51.949 --> 00:38:54.776
what it's doing. I should be sitting
here on pins and needles until the

00:38:54.809 --> 00:38:59.387
plane responds back and lets me know
where it is gone and what it has done.

00:38:59.420 --> 00:39:03.927
But it is, I guess you might call a
sort of celebration of air in that it

00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:08.367
is designed not to override the area.
It is designed to totally respond to

00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:13.637
it. Any chair structure is totally
different. It's like having a number of

00:39:13.670 --> 00:39:16.936
dice in a box and you're shaking and
you throw it out on the table and it

00:39:16.969 --> 00:39:22.686
could be any number of different
totals as to how the numbers pop up. So

00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:26.396
all of the energies are gonna come
together in a unique manner and present

00:39:26.429 --> 00:39:31.836
a flight which I can sort of give a
generalization to myself mentally of

00:39:31.869 --> 00:39:38.086
what it might be like but cannot at
all give uh any real definite feeling

00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:42.546
to myself. Just what it will be about.
It's going to be about the air and

00:39:42.579 --> 00:39:48.017
what the air, this invisible series of
forces that are there. It is a

00:39:48.050 --> 00:39:51.177
participation thing. People will be
helping me then people will be

00:39:51.210 --> 00:39:56.287
watching it In many cases are usually
it'll be viewed across its

00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:03.217
trajectory which could go anywhere
from 10 to 100 miles or further. So uh

00:40:03.250 --> 00:40:07.086
it's again this christmas package and
I'm just sort of waiting to Lamar to

00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:11.646
see what it's going to be about. And
it's a thing which I enjoy having

00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:18.876
people be able to relate and respond
to and assist with. Mhm.

00:40:18.909 --> 00:40:25.486
It's mylar, it's cellophane made clear
by Dupont is a vacuum with a

00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:30.356
aluminum surface. So it's a very high
silver mirror finish which can

00:40:30.389 --> 00:40:35.947
reflect both the visual color and
light and quality as a sort of a sound

00:40:35.980 --> 00:40:39.456
county impact as it will respond to
the air and of course it's basically

00:40:39.489 --> 00:40:45.177
time motion unit.

00:40:45.210 --> 00:40:48.977
Yeah.

00:40:49.010 --> 00:40:55.477
also responding to you, I got a lot of
things to say responsive, excuse

00:40:55.510 --> 00:41:00.387
the pins and needles aspect just
struck me as perhaps one of the reasons I

00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:04.197
stopped being in the festival
business. Maybe that was the particular

00:41:04.230 --> 00:41:09.876
aspect. I was ready to forgo for

00:41:09.909 --> 00:41:16.666
a kind of timelessness in my work that
was not pressured by on and off,

00:41:16.699 --> 00:41:22.376
start and stop. Um

00:41:22.409 --> 00:41:28.736
and I also thought perhaps before I
tell you what I did as the kind of

00:41:28.769 --> 00:41:35.046
work for which I'm probably here. Ah

00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:38.697
I would tell you a little bit about
what I went through to stop. I went

00:41:38.730 --> 00:41:44.026
through a time in the 60's where I poo
pooed visual art and I thought it

00:41:44.059 --> 00:41:52.059
was just finished and I was involved
in the importance of McLuhan esque

00:41:53.019 --> 00:42:01.019
systems, talk and lasers and
happenings et cetera and

00:42:02.900 --> 00:42:10.387
I could not see any significance in a
painting and I retired from new york

00:42:10.420 --> 00:42:16.447
and went to Vermont and went through a
series of years till I came to the

00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:24.227
realization that it was my task
because I had to do it in the panel right

00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:29.537
before this we talked about leisure
and my point of view being survival

00:42:29.570 --> 00:42:33.416
tasks. If you if you pay attention to
all of the things you really need

00:42:33.449 --> 00:42:37.227
for survival in all dimensions. I had
to paint and it was as simple as

00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:43.867
that I so I finally transcended any
social value or

00:42:43.900 --> 00:42:50.066
coupons for redemption with it. What I
used to do perhaps my media was

00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:56.477
people if jenny's is fire and howard's
is air. Mind you could say it was

00:42:56.510 --> 00:43:04.510
people. Um, the first project I did
um, Was something called the Hall of

00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:11.166
Issues at Judson Memorial Church in
New York City in 1960.

00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:17.619
And the first man to champion my ideas
is howard moody who is here today.

00:43:17.630 --> 00:43:19.630
And it was, it arose out of an impetus to do something and for social

00:43:25.590 --> 00:43:30.276
reasons without getting involved in
politics or organizations. And I

00:43:30.309 --> 00:43:38.309
evolved this kind of multi dimensional
or multi media ah forum, community

00:43:40.139 --> 00:43:47.327
forum. And very simply it worked that
every sunday this hall, a room,

00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:53.867
simple room that was given to us was
open to anyone who had an issue two

00:43:53.900 --> 00:44:00.436
post. And that issue could be a poem,
a picture, a sculpture, a banner,

00:44:00.469 --> 00:44:02.756
protest

00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:07.856
a letter, anything, a newspaper
clipping. And it was the way in which

00:44:07.889 --> 00:44:13.117
people could share their most intimate
causes without having to go out of

00:44:13.150 --> 00:44:18.856
their way to get into some kind of
organized system.

00:44:18.889 --> 00:44:21.956
And it was

00:44:21.989 --> 00:44:28.537
also something people could consume at
their own rhythm. And so every

00:44:28.570 --> 00:44:34.157
sunday, an environmental collage was
created every Wednesday. There was a

00:44:34.190 --> 00:44:41.197
talk where anybody who wanted to say
anything, um, or perform. Uh, so that

00:44:41.230 --> 00:44:47.267
uh, the forum went into other media
such as dance and music and film could

00:44:47.300 --> 00:44:54.517
happen as an agenda to the issues on
the wall. And the,

00:44:54.550 --> 00:44:59.157
the hall of Issues produced

00:44:59.190 --> 00:45:04.876
uh the bread and puppet theater was
that was their first forum and it

00:45:04.909 --> 00:45:12.606
produced issues for the Mccarran act
against them political issues. It was

00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:19.227
the a debate forum for local
communists, for the gay mattachine society,

00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:24.057
which is what it was called in those
days, for people who hated con Ed,

00:45:24.090 --> 00:45:27.517
for people who hated playgrounds, for
poets, for painters, for sculptures

00:45:27.550 --> 00:45:32.847
, etcetera, etcetera. There was a
movement at that time called the Angry

00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:40.456
Arts and they contributed a lot, all
sorts of visual protest material.

00:45:40.489 --> 00:45:46.597
Um and I guess the next significant
uhh thing that I did, but the Hall of

00:45:46.630 --> 00:45:54.356
Issues idea, I have traveled with me
through all of my festival and forum

00:45:54.389 --> 00:46:01.057
activities just in the idea of the
power of a visual forum. And I would

00:46:01.090 --> 00:46:06.666
like to see a visual forum in any
every town across the country because I

00:46:06.699 --> 00:46:11.197
think it's such an obvious way for
people to communicate at their own

00:46:11.230 --> 00:46:19.230
speed and to make little causes easily
communicable to the community in

00:46:19.420 --> 00:46:23.517
which they live without having to be
able to speak. A lot of people can't

00:46:23.550 --> 00:46:29.066
get up at a town forum and speak. But
I could go on and on about that. But

00:46:29.099 --> 00:46:34.876
anyway, I guess the next, the thing
that happened was what led to be

00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:42.236
called the hoping happenings and that
began And something that I produced

00:46:42.269 --> 00:46:48.376
in 1964 called the culture's art
follies um, at a place called Kutsher's

00:46:48.409 --> 00:46:54.126
Country club in the Catskills, I was
an art teacher and mr Kushner said

00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:01.006
why don't you do an art festival? So
uh with a lot of very impressive art

00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:08.657
folks from new york. We produced one
week of Slam Bang art, um steve

00:47:08.690 --> 00:47:14.997
paxton and Debra Hayes, which were
part of a very new dance approach

00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:18.497
dancing with grass carpets on the golf
course and nobody understanding

00:47:18.530 --> 00:47:25.057
what they were about. And um
Breckenridge and Warhol films and the Cusco

00:47:25.090 --> 00:47:29.126
company. Did any of you ever hear of
the US Co company, which is a sixties

00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.347
revelation of they were one of the
most important inputs in the sixties

00:47:33.380 --> 00:47:41.046
and the new Multimedia where they had
12 screens. No they had they had

00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:48.747
Like a cinerama of screens and they
had 12 slide projectors and films and

00:47:48.780 --> 00:47:55.997
a series of tapes and it was just a
collage of slides, drawer slides,

00:47:56.030 --> 00:48:04.030
motion pictures and sound effects.
That was really the beginning of all of

00:48:04.070 --> 00:48:09.867
the slide show, multimedia light show
business that has followed it and

00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:16.637
they of course have disbanded that.
Anyway, it was it was a whole week of

00:48:16.670 --> 00:48:21.887
very vanguard events and part of it
was a group called Park Place. I don't

00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.787
know if any of you have heard of Park
Place Gallery in new york was in

00:48:24.820 --> 00:48:31.037
downtown group that gave birth to uh
chuck jennifer and Mark di Suvero and

00:48:31.070 --> 00:48:38.557
uh Peter Farrah Kiss and whole bunch
of other shining sculptors. And with

00:48:38.590 --> 00:48:43.336
Dean Fleming and we designed

00:48:43.369 --> 00:48:51.369
a wall of canvas that was Supported on
steaks every three ft in the ground.

00:48:53.570 --> 00:48:58.307
And a bunch of artists from the city
came up to have a conversation in

00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:01.867
words and pictures on both sides of
this canvas that was stretched amongst

00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:08.657
the trees. And at the last minute the
thought arose, I asked what if what

00:49:08.690 --> 00:49:15.287
if the Yes It's one of pain. And it
resulted in a furious debate because a

00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:20.467
lot of the artists didn't want this to
happen. But when the event started

00:49:20.500 --> 00:49:23.936
it was such a natural

00:49:23.969 --> 00:49:30.037
follow up of what was prepared that it
just it just happened and the

00:49:30.070 --> 00:49:34.867
painting was beautiful but all the
guests just got in it, you know because

00:49:34.900 --> 00:49:41.577
nothing immense was required of any
one person. And that that event was

00:49:41.610 --> 00:49:47.537
the forerunner of the first thing that
was called hoping is happening

00:49:47.570 --> 00:49:51.037
because

00:49:51.070 --> 00:49:55.936
it's funny how things happen. Someone
had

00:49:55.969 --> 00:50:00.896
I can I can make stories very long.
But anyway it was part of the Museum

00:50:00.929 --> 00:50:08.126
of Contemporary Crafts show called
object in open air and I propose this

00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:13.407
an event in open air as an object in
open air. And so it was an extension

00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:21.440
of what happened at cultures. It was
300 ft of canvas in back of the

00:50:21.539 --> 00:50:27.526
Metropolitan Museum um also

00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:35.559
uh huh on stakes in the ground that
made a fantastic serpentine design

00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:42.416
sometimes using the trees, sometimes
using the stakes. Mhm and the canvas

00:50:42.449 --> 00:50:48.217
was divided in three ft squares with a
big black brush. So it gave

00:50:48.250 --> 00:50:55.927
everybody that participated eight a
feeling of boundaries that made them

00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:00.927
more comfortable and also structured
the pictures in a much better way.

00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.427
And then of course there was a whole
lot of organization

00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:09.727
involved to arrange it so that anybody
in the city that wanted to paint on

00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:16.677
this could paint on it. And that was
the beginning of what then evolved

00:51:16.710 --> 00:51:22.626
into a series of park events where I
was trying to teach thousands of

00:51:22.659 --> 00:51:28.947
people at a time art lessons. The that
particular thing got more

00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:34.546
structured because the the painting in
cultures was very beautiful because

00:51:34.579 --> 00:51:39.376
it was a limited audience
participation. But at the museum, the back of

00:51:39.409 --> 00:51:42.427
the museum in central Park,

00:51:42.460 --> 00:51:47.956
the painting reached a saturation
point and then kept going until it got

00:51:47.989 --> 00:51:51.157
money. You know, it was like there
were certain amounts of people leading

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:54.026
at the time and you know, signals
where they started and where they

00:51:54.059 --> 00:51:58.486
stopped so that they couldn't stay
there forever. And there's a whole uh

00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:01.876
organism like a cafeteria of where you
picked up your paints, et cetera.

00:52:01.909 --> 00:52:06.717
You know, it required a lot of
organization. But the painting at a certain

00:52:06.750 --> 00:52:11.097
point got wet and it kept on going
until at the end of the day. It wasn't

00:52:11.130 --> 00:52:16.157
such a good work as the first one. So
I evolved different means of

00:52:16.190 --> 00:52:21.666
designing events that actually taught
people and then, you know, Children

00:52:21.699 --> 00:52:25.467
and adults played these art games,
painting games. I had a series of

00:52:25.500 --> 00:52:31.936
painting games and then after that
first series of festivals, um the

00:52:31.969 --> 00:52:36.807
festival's developed into other kinds
of lessons so that we got into

00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:43.206
celebrations of silence and sound and
celebrations of seasons and

00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:49.816
celebrations of holidays and climax
with something you all may not know

00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:57.849
about. So it's really history, the,
the wedding. Um I finally like the

00:52:59.949 --> 00:53:06.956
most natural way or the most natural
way to use the parks of the city. It

00:53:06.989 --> 00:53:10.927
seemed to me one of the most beautiful
ways was to celebrate weddings

00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:16.617
there. Um to let it be the way new
Yorkers could have a garden wedding.

00:53:16.650 --> 00:53:19.416
And

00:53:19.449 --> 00:53:25.376
it was an enormous project where I
could go on and talk all about the

00:53:25.409 --> 00:53:32.376
wedding and all we had to do to
arrange everything for a series of 10

00:53:32.409 --> 00:53:40.026
couples. But what happened toward the
end of it was that the church got

00:53:40.059 --> 00:53:47.617
very nervous. Um we had, I'm taking up
too much time

00:53:47.650 --> 00:53:51.867
anyway. I'll stop now if anybody wants
to know about it, I'll talk to them

00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:55.097
about it later. But there's, there's
some of the kinds of things that I

00:53:55.130 --> 00:54:00.807
began how I got into the festival
business.

00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:03.606
I realized that

00:54:03.639 --> 00:54:11.639
to add flags to celebrations. I don't
incite people to a specialist

00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:14.106
flags are

00:54:14.139 --> 00:54:16.606
the mission before

00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:22.407
lifting of the spirit, physical body
in the celebration

00:54:22.440 --> 00:54:25.706
and

00:54:25.739 --> 00:54:29.307
should be used.

00:54:29.340 --> 00:54:35.356
Either person. I have people who have
like 78 flags and they like fly a

00:54:35.389 --> 00:54:40.697
different flag every day or for a
location. Even for a moment you can use

00:54:40.730 --> 00:54:46.526
a flag, the colors of the flag. The
significance of the flag course in a

00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:50.407
wider sense for a festival

00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:54.606
it becomes more of a flag environment.
You

00:54:54.639 --> 00:55:02.639
circle area with flags. So people feel
surrounded by car

00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:09.206
and the effect of the wind also the
audible effect.

00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:14.106
Somebody asked me morning if they
designed a special flag for Arcosanti. I

00:55:14.139 --> 00:55:19.617
don't think there is any specific
designed for eco center. You can design

00:55:19.650 --> 00:55:25.586
for each festival, the special flag
special design but has the spirit of

00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:30.307
Arcosanti is in a continuous
developed.

00:55:30.340 --> 00:55:33.307
The flags should

00:55:33.340 --> 00:55:38.907
be developed each year differently and

00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:45.307
be seen as a occasional that it should

00:55:45.340 --> 00:55:53.340
former celebrate

00:55:55.539 --> 00:56:03.539
any further thoughts for can respond
to questions.

00:56:23.130 --> 00:56:28.206
I don't think so except for national
flag which are imposed on government

00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:31.597
buildings and post up.

00:56:31.630 --> 00:56:39.630
I think especially designed flags Can
be used either one day 12 week

00:56:39.730 --> 00:56:42.997
whenever you feel like it

00:56:43.030 --> 00:56:47.927
clients who have personal sex, they
don't fly it all the time. Even if

00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:51.387
they are there. Some people say at the
beginning when they ordered flags,

00:56:51.420 --> 00:56:57.396
they all will this flag and I'll tell
my friends when I was. That's not.

00:56:57.429 --> 00:57:05.429
That's not the spirit of the flag. I
think it's more you feel like toys.

00:57:05.730 --> 00:57:10.327
There's a there's a book store in a
town near where I live, brattleboro

00:57:10.360 --> 00:57:14.977
Vermont and they do something very
unusual with flags. I've never seen it

00:57:15.010 --> 00:57:19.686
done before every day they hoist a
different flag. Some are national flags

00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:24.796
and some are other kind of flags. But
it's part of their daily decoration

00:57:24.829 --> 00:57:30.097
. I like, I like the way you describe
this

00:57:30.130 --> 00:57:35.977
community board but everybody can
paste up is what if you see a notice in

00:57:36.010 --> 00:57:39.736
the paper in the morning, you can pay
for everybody to see. I have that

00:57:39.769 --> 00:57:44.097
was a studio in cinema episode.

00:57:44.130 --> 00:57:49.526
What? And different flags every day
and perhaps sometimes not a flag. And

00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.497
I wonder if it is still

00:57:52.530 --> 00:58:00.530
uh huh It's your single

00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:05.537
well the, you know to finalize I think
that since we are celebrating

00:58:05.570 --> 00:58:09.916
somehow each of us, maybe something
different. But with us at least that

00:58:09.949 --> 00:58:15.526
we are here in a way. You know some
sort of uh arcosanti in itself. I

00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:19.956
think that let's go all and join hands
and just dance because that's one

00:58:19.989 --> 00:58:26.887
way of celebrating all together. Okay,
so let's go

00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:30.186
rise to the UK.

00:58:30.219 --> 00:58:35.586
Mhm Music.

00:58:35.619 --> 00:58:39.486
Mm hmm.

00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:44.387
We were, I can't sing.

00:58:44.420 --> 00:58:48.486
Shall we? Mm

00:58:48.519 --> 00:58:53.186
Walking down.

00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:56.727
Oh

00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:02.686
would you like some basketball? Stick
your ears.

00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:10.719
Oh

01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:58.767
as the come on.

01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:03.967
But I suppose you're my hearing

01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:10.867
Peter you're chairman of the audience.
You start. Well last time I did

01:03:10.900 --> 01:03:18.900
these first.

01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:30.166
All right, Allison, I'll start.

01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:34.046
I think maybe the first time that
everybody makes a statement. He or she

01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:40.157
might introduce themselves. Um, my
name is Peter Plagens and I am on a

01:03:40.190 --> 01:03:44.967
couple of the buildings as an art
critic. How

01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:49.347
I think in most sets and a lot of
people's minds, critics always come off

01:03:49.380 --> 01:03:53.387
as being villains. I mean, if I see a
panel listed about criticism the

01:03:53.420 --> 01:03:58.367
arts, I figured first off there's
gonna be a whole lot of bitching about

01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:04.146
the negative influence that critics
have on serious expressions in the

01:04:04.179 --> 01:04:09.186
arts in whatever particular field.
Jazz. I I can give you name, rank and

01:04:09.219 --> 01:04:13.166
serial number and a lot of specifics
about the art world. Um, I'm sure

01:04:13.199 --> 01:04:18.956
Nori and Peter can about the world of
architecture. Uh, maybe

01:04:18.989 --> 01:04:22.847
we could start it off that way if
anybody wants to talk positively or

01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:29.367
negatively about the effects, tangible
effects that the level of criticism

01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:33.396
or critics are having in particular
field of endeavor, They may want to

01:04:33.429 --> 01:04:37.816
take that up. Some aspect of that.
Some questions from the audience you'd

01:04:37.849 --> 01:04:43.666
like to take it. I'm David Berge and
I'm a concert pianist and teacher and

01:04:43.699 --> 01:04:46.657
have been playing for about a quarter
of a century around this country and

01:04:46.690 --> 01:04:51.456
elsewhere. And the level of criticism

01:04:51.489 --> 01:04:56.956
that I witnessed as a performer, but
also reading about other events, the

01:04:56.989 --> 01:05:01.736
, the level level of musical criticism
in this country has escalated

01:05:01.769 --> 01:05:03.856
enormously

01:05:03.889 --> 01:05:09.486
upward in the last quarter of a
century. I'm particularly concerned with

01:05:09.519 --> 01:05:13.896
the performance of new music, which is
an area that many people not

01:05:13.929 --> 01:05:18.666
critics about. But I think that more
and more critics are becoming more

01:05:18.699 --> 01:05:23.456
and more involved in what's going on
and no more and more about the

01:05:23.489 --> 01:05:27.206
various styles that are available and
are able to judge both the

01:05:27.239 --> 01:05:30.166
composition and the performance. Which
in the case of music is a

01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:37.736
particularly difficult job. Um So it's
my feeling that well let me give

01:05:37.769 --> 01:05:43.666
you just a couple of quick examples,
1973 I gave the first performance of

01:05:43.699 --> 01:05:49.657
a new work for solo piano. A big new
work by George Crumb in a couple of

01:05:49.690 --> 01:05:53.077
several first performance is one of
them was in Washington D. C. And the

01:05:53.110 --> 01:05:57.907
chief critic uh Washington post paul
hume called me and made an

01:05:57.940 --> 01:06:01.517
appointment to come see the score and
talk it over with me before the

01:06:01.550 --> 01:06:05.227
performance so that he could really be
in on it. Uh When I gave the new

01:06:05.260 --> 01:06:09.887
york performance, Donald Shanahan of
the new york times came in one of a

01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:13.657
free performance ahead of time and
discuss the score. And it's not just

01:06:13.690 --> 01:06:17.086
true in new york and Washington but I
feel it's true elsewhere that more

01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:20.227
and more critics are becoming more and
more knowledgeable Now of course

01:06:20.260 --> 01:06:24.146
the opposite is also true. There are
still people being hired because the

01:06:24.179 --> 01:06:26.916
papers or magazines run out of money,
they're being hired from the sports

01:06:26.949 --> 01:06:31.236
page to go out and listen to a
concert. This is not good. But generally

01:06:31.269 --> 01:06:39.269
speaking I think the level has he
improved a great deal.

01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:52.079
Uh wait a minute. Uh huh Get,

01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:58.646
he's talking about the hot air is
wonderful. I'm Bill Balcombe. I'm a

01:06:58.679 --> 01:07:03.947
composer who plays the piano
occasionally. And

01:07:03.980 --> 01:07:10.557
most of the criticism I've had has
ranged as David would have make you

01:07:10.590 --> 01:07:16.247
imagine from intelligent criticism,
not necessarily always favorable to

01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:20.276
two rather stupid criticism, which is
sometimes favorable. It's not kind

01:07:20.309 --> 01:07:24.597
of compromise when you get a good
review, which is poorly written and a

01:07:24.630 --> 01:07:28.677
bad review which is well written. I
think both things can happen. Uh,

01:07:28.710 --> 01:07:31.467
there was a time and I think David has
mentioned this that there was a

01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:34.467
very low standard of music criticism.
There were lots of sports writers

01:07:34.500 --> 01:07:38.387
who somehow got into sports in music
criticism. It wasn't expected. For

01:07:38.420 --> 01:07:42.157
example, I think in many cases for the
critic to know how to even read

01:07:42.190 --> 01:07:47.436
music, to be able to have very much
physical education. A few years ago, I

01:07:47.469 --> 01:07:52.597
was actually attending a music critics
convention at Lenox in

01:07:52.630 --> 01:07:56.206
massachusetts outside of tanglewood.
And they pulled the critics who were

01:07:56.239 --> 01:08:00.197
there were everywhere from pretty good
critics to people for the, you know

01:08:00.230 --> 01:08:06.477
, horses crotch observer from Arkansas
or something. And they found out

01:08:06.510 --> 01:08:09.887
that the favorite piece that the music
critics light was made of his

01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:13.447
moonlight sonata and that's nothing
wrong with the moon. I said now that's

01:08:13.480 --> 01:08:15.967
a marvelous piece. But you would have
thought by now they would have heard

01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:19.036
a lot of other music that didn't
necessarily, so you do have a very, very

01:08:19.069 --> 01:08:23.937
wide swath of that sort of thing in
England. Of course there is, I think a

01:08:23.970 --> 01:08:31.576
large, a long tradition of very
heavily trained music person becoming

01:08:31.609 --> 01:08:36.506
critic. And you find often there, I
think a good deal more of the kind of

01:08:36.539 --> 01:08:39.897
thing that David mentioned when they
knew crumb piece was done. It was the

01:08:39.930 --> 01:08:43.277
kind of immediate kind of
participatory interest people seeking you out.

01:08:43.310 --> 01:08:47.536
Now it's starting to happen in the
states, but it's still unusual and it's

01:08:47.569 --> 01:08:50.876
enough unusual that it's worth to talk
about what I really have questions

01:08:50.909 --> 01:08:52.937
about,

01:08:52.970 --> 01:08:55.597
especially cause we're talking about
criticism mostly in newspapers. After

01:08:55.630 --> 01:08:59.666
all, we're still in new york and the
throes of a newspaper strike, which

01:08:59.699 --> 01:09:03.536
is probably going to resolve by the
time we get out of here. But maybe not

01:09:03.569 --> 01:09:06.166
the reason of course being that it
turned out that Murdoch couldn't fight

01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:09.727
off the unions. He needed to have the
money. And it's been immediately

01:09:09.760 --> 01:09:14.126
apparent that all of the arts that one
would imagine depended a great deal

01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:17.826
on critics. Uh, that is to say theater
and music particularly, which is a

01:09:17.859 --> 01:09:20.727
momentary thing. Art critics of
course, another story cause you're dealing

01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:24.467
with a piece of work that's going to
stay there for a while, but a play

01:09:24.500 --> 01:09:28.777
can be down by a badge set of bricks,
just like that. Well, there have

01:09:28.810 --> 01:09:32.027
been several openings just about as
many as there would have been without

01:09:32.060 --> 01:09:36.376
the newspapers. The attendance has
been about the same. In fact, it's been

01:09:36.409 --> 01:09:39.576
practically no appreciable difference
in having the critics or not. I

01:09:39.609 --> 01:09:44.366
wouldn't say perhaps that as the
critics have become more prominent, I

01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:49.256
mean more competent in the United
States. It's curious and paradoxical

01:09:49.289 --> 01:09:53.836
that their influence has dropped.

01:09:53.869 --> 01:09:58.956
Yeah. Could I ask you, could I ask
David a question before that? Is that,

01:09:58.989 --> 01:10:03.706
is that maybe though, that the, you
mean me, I'm Bill Bill, I'm sorry. I

01:10:03.739 --> 01:10:05.927
wouldn't,

01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:08.906
personally, I wouldn't think that the
function of the critic would be at

01:10:08.939 --> 01:10:11.737
all the help to get people to the
performance. And in the case of the

01:10:11.770 --> 01:10:14.147
theater, it's true. You see now, of
course you're an artist is a different

01:10:14.180 --> 01:10:17.057
matter and so you'll have a different
kind of response. Perhaps you said,

01:10:17.090 --> 01:10:20.296
unless there's some sort of famous
exhibition of some kind that everybody

01:10:20.329 --> 01:10:25.376
might be presumed to go to like king
tut or something. But in the case of

01:10:25.409 --> 01:10:28.666
music or particularly the theater and
a lot of my time has been spent in

01:10:28.699 --> 01:10:33.836
the theater. I have had the experience
of good work being down by critical

01:10:33.869 --> 01:10:37.506
to balls. And then the same critics
turning around five or six years later

01:10:37.539 --> 01:10:40.397
when they're writing their history of
that decade in the theater saying

01:10:40.430 --> 01:10:42.737
wasn't that a wonderful show too bad.
It went down having been the very

01:10:42.770 --> 01:10:46.446
people who did it. Uh, you know, a
little bit like the, you know, the

01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:49.567
character Lewis carroll, e you know,
the one who eats all the oysters, you

01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:52.467
don't feel sorry for them afterwards.
And there's the same kind of thing.

01:10:52.500 --> 01:10:54.866
You do run into that. I don't know if
you do that in painting, but we

01:10:54.899 --> 01:10:57.656
sure have it and it's probably a
little different for you. I know that's

01:10:57.689 --> 01:10:59.506
our function because we're dealing
with something much more momentary than

01:10:59.539 --> 01:11:03.427
you are.

01:11:03.460 --> 01:11:07.387
My name is Michael Mclean, but I'm a
sculptor, live here in Arizona have

01:11:07.420 --> 01:11:11.286
all my life. And I think what you're
saying is I think it's very true

01:11:11.319 --> 01:11:15.166
primarily because the critics that
you're dealing with are working in the

01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:19.437
same idiom as which the playwrights
are that is the written and spoken

01:11:19.470 --> 01:11:22.996
work. So of course, if you get
somebody that's a little miffed and perhaps

01:11:23.029 --> 01:11:27.067
that he figures he perhaps should have
been the playwright or couldn't

01:11:27.100 --> 01:11:30.656
show it into that and whatever, just
like, just like the art critic that

01:11:30.689 --> 01:11:34.397
thinks he's a better painter than the
guy who's reviewing. So I think that

01:11:34.430 --> 01:11:39.567
the criticism that both the the
concert pianist or the the musician,

01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:43.616
composer and the writing composer, the
author comes under, I think is a

01:11:43.649 --> 01:11:47.156
bit more severe than those of us that
are affiliate with visual arts.

01:11:47.189 --> 01:11:52.927
Although I'm sure Pete here can
testify of some of the witch hunts that

01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:56.647
critics of art critics of the
government going after visual artists. But I

01:11:56.680 --> 01:12:01.317
think what you have to say is very
true. I think one of the sad things

01:12:01.350 --> 01:12:06.527
that happened, uh, primarily with
critics of dealing with the visual arts

01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:10.267
is the fact that they try to be taste
makers and say that this is good,

01:12:10.300 --> 01:12:15.256
this is bad. And uh, don't wait, you
know, saying that the real test for

01:12:15.289 --> 01:12:18.996
this work of art is going to be time.
It's readily apparent that they're

01:12:19.029 --> 01:12:23.187
they're they're very good things.
We've done, uh, very spontaneously, just

01:12:23.220 --> 01:12:28.826
as mm spontaneous music and
spontaneous spoken word and whatever the same

01:12:28.859 --> 01:12:32.576
thing as being true in the visual
arts. And I think it's all too sad that

01:12:32.609 --> 01:12:37.427
when the, uh, critic finds finds his
position instead of sort of means,

01:12:37.460 --> 01:12:40.906
somebody trying to resolve things for
the general public perhaps make

01:12:40.939 --> 01:12:44.866
things better understood. He takes it
as an issue of his job. Yeah, well,

01:12:44.899 --> 01:12:48.557
we have to, we have to, we have people
who would like to be taste makers.

01:12:48.590 --> 01:12:53.277
We have people who really have
excellent taste and who got awfully awfully

01:12:53.310 --> 01:12:56.477
head up about things and who could be
marvelously wrong. I'm talking about

01:12:56.510 --> 01:13:00.796
a guy like Virgil Thompson, there's,
you know, and, and Virgil could be a

01:13:00.829 --> 01:13:04.147
meanie and he could be very close
minded and so on. But you sort of

01:13:04.180 --> 01:13:08.227
forgave him about it because the point
of the fact that he himself was a

01:13:08.260 --> 01:13:11.866
composer and a damn good one of a kind
and he was bound to have his own

01:13:11.899 --> 01:13:14.637
likes and dislikes and he was just
very strongly prejudiced and that was

01:13:14.670 --> 01:13:17.767
all there was to that. And that's all
right. I don't mind that. But I've

01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:20.376
seen people who are really politically
minded and I've seen people who've

01:13:20.409 --> 01:13:25.517
been dealing with that kind of thing
and knowing maybe one very political

01:13:25.550 --> 01:13:30.607
critic and there's another, maybe I
won't name names of no need. But you

01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:33.166
might say that right now in new york,
there's probably three very

01:13:33.199 --> 01:13:37.027
important kinds of critics. There's
the kind who was rather rare. It was

01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:40.196
just a kind of reporter who tells you
basically what happened and make an

01:13:40.229 --> 01:13:44.296
awful lot of taste judgments and is
rather than all the whole process. And

01:13:44.329 --> 01:13:47.437
and doesn't mind to tell you that he
doesn't know too much about it. But I

01:13:47.470 --> 01:13:50.567
want to let you know, at least here he
was, he was the event this happened

01:13:50.600 --> 01:13:54.326
or didn't, I'm talking about music now
and then there's another kind who

01:13:54.359 --> 01:13:58.246
miss a scholar who will go through all
of the details and who will also

01:13:58.279 --> 01:14:00.887
tell you about the background having
done his homework and has done a

01:14:00.920 --> 01:14:03.956
serious thing. I've had one of this
case where a fellow spent a good three

01:14:03.989 --> 01:14:08.387
days. I mean three pages on, you know,
in a national magazine on my work.

01:14:08.420 --> 01:14:11.456
It was not all favorable, but I was
very happy with that because he'd done

01:14:11.489 --> 01:14:15.166
his homework. He looked at my scores,
He'd spent his time, he had, you

01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:17.696
know, a mixed response, but I don't
mind that kind. And then there's the

01:14:17.729 --> 01:14:20.956
other kind who was really the
politician who wants to work and that kind

01:14:20.989 --> 01:14:24.416
of thing in France for many years. For
example, there was a tradition is

01:14:24.449 --> 01:14:27.286
still quite true and some of the major
papers that the critic had to be

01:14:27.319 --> 01:14:31.916
paid or you didn't get a good review.
In fact, rather recently, a friend

01:14:31.949 --> 01:14:37.687
of mine had that problem. He had a
critic from the Figural came to review

01:14:37.720 --> 01:14:41.557
his panel's recital and he got a
terrible pan about it and he happened to

01:14:41.590 --> 01:14:43.597
meet him at the party afterwards. Why
did you give me such terrible pan?

01:14:43.630 --> 01:14:47.727
You've always been very friendly says,
well sir, you forgot to pay me. But

01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:51.366
of course I don't think anything that
open happens here, maybe it does. I

01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:54.277
haven't heard anything about at least
that's so that's so bald that at

01:14:54.310 --> 01:14:57.107
least, you know, it's true and
everybody reading it knows it too. So

01:14:57.140 --> 01:15:00.196
there's another situation, but if
you're dealing with is we have all these

01:15:00.229 --> 01:15:04.597
kinds of kind of, what I really mean
to say is that I'm noticing at least

01:15:04.630 --> 01:15:08.737
in music, uh, and somewhat in theater
that the influence the hegemony of

01:15:08.770 --> 01:15:12.116
the critic, which was so strong 10
years ago seems to have abated

01:15:12.149 --> 01:15:15.987
considerably. I'm sort of interested
in that. I know it's true with you

01:15:16.020 --> 01:15:20.267
guys, I know what this was. I just
want to make some general observations

01:15:20.300 --> 01:15:25.427
on architectural criticism. Um, there
are certain styles that develop in

01:15:25.460 --> 01:15:29.567
different fields of criticism and
architecture is one of the fields that

01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:32.847
is developed with the assumption from
the beginning that it's written for

01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:36.046
a large audience, whether it's written
in professional magazines or

01:15:36.079 --> 01:15:40.246
newspapers. Um, and I think that's
interesting because that is also true

01:15:40.279 --> 01:15:44.097
of theater and film and literature
criticism on the whole, but not

01:15:44.130 --> 01:15:50.036
generally two of our music. I think
that's interesting. Um, mm another

01:15:50.069 --> 01:15:53.937
thing is that professional journals in
the field tend not to be critical

01:15:53.970 --> 01:15:58.187
and this has developed and sometimes
people give you economic reasons they

01:15:58.220 --> 01:16:04.097
aren't really true. It is simply
developed as a tradition. Whereas popular

01:16:04.130 --> 01:16:08.397
could popular architectural criticism
is often extremely critical. And

01:16:08.430 --> 01:16:12.097
there, again, architecture is a little
different from some fields because

01:16:12.130 --> 01:16:17.296
when you write an architectural
article, you can't ruin the career of an

01:16:17.329 --> 01:16:22.017
architect. You can't stop something
midway in the years that I've been

01:16:22.050 --> 01:16:27.607
writing. I once had the effect of
having a group reform an award system.

01:16:27.640 --> 01:16:31.437
But no amount of writing about
buildings will stop them from being built

01:16:31.470 --> 01:16:34.897
will really change unless you really
get people to think in different ways

01:16:34.930 --> 01:16:39.217
over time. So it's very different from
a theater critic who can open and

01:16:39.250 --> 01:16:43.336
close the show. It's about the only
one as a matter of fact, you're

01:16:43.369 --> 01:16:46.607
talking about lumping lumping together
music and art people. I don't think

01:16:46.640 --> 01:16:50.637
that's right. And also architects
don't need publicity quite the same way

01:16:50.670 --> 01:16:54.557
to get art shows aren't going to be
opened or closed by the review either

01:16:54.590 --> 01:17:00.357
, but artists don't have immediate
access so that while dealers are often

01:17:00.390 --> 01:17:04.607
as important as art critics are,
critics have a real kind of weight to

01:17:04.640 --> 01:17:07.746
what they said, it tends not to, to an
architecture criticism, it tends to

01:17:07.779 --> 01:17:13.196
leave it more open not to play fourth
grade teacher, you know, a plus and

01:17:13.229 --> 01:17:16.777
this one c minus on that, but to get
into real reasons for things and and

01:17:16.810 --> 01:17:21.897
real developments and just Meteor
articles become available uh, and and

01:17:21.930 --> 01:17:27.156
necessary. Um another thing right now
we're noticing is that there's a

01:17:27.189 --> 01:17:30.607
good deal more architecture criticism
in popular newspapers. I mean, new

01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:33.956
york Times has been for a while, but
that's only one generation old and

01:17:33.989 --> 01:17:37.717
now you get things like the Milwaukee
Journal and understood all kinds of

01:17:37.750 --> 01:17:40.826
newspapers which aren't very well
known. You're also beginning to get a

01:17:40.859 --> 01:17:44.826
lot of Newsweek time. There's been
some stuff in esquire, There is a long

01:17:44.859 --> 01:17:49.446
article in the new yorker, not even by
a critic. Horizon magazine has been

01:17:49.479 --> 01:17:53.696
doing things month after month. It
seems to be a general interest in this

01:17:53.729 --> 01:17:56.967
which was once considered an esoteric
subject that has never had the

01:17:57.000 --> 01:18:02.647
following, that art has probably
related to the environmental movement and

01:18:02.680 --> 01:18:07.357
an interest in that kind of thing. Um
excuse me, what is the function of

01:18:07.390 --> 01:18:12.097
architectural criticism as you
function of any kind of criticism is

01:18:12.130 --> 01:18:15.256
education. But you're talking about it
as they were quite different from

01:18:15.289 --> 01:18:18.746
some of the other art is sometimes
different because the field itself is

01:18:18.779 --> 01:18:22.696
different. What our culture is, how
clients are gotten, How decisions are

01:18:22.729 --> 01:18:27.946
made is often quite different. How one
thing it's large groups as opposed

01:18:27.979 --> 01:18:32.647
to individuals. Second thing, It
cannot be done without a buyer, which is

01:18:32.680 --> 01:18:35.977
unlike most things is like theater,
but it's unlike most other things. Who

01:18:36.010 --> 01:18:42.807
is the criticism for, who is going to
read it and have an impact depends

01:18:42.840 --> 01:18:47.887
who What you're writing in. If you're
writing in a newspaper, one hopes

01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:52.307
anyone with any interest in any sort
of cultural things or political

01:18:52.340 --> 01:18:57.256
awareness will read it. Um If you're
writing professional journals, one

01:18:57.289 --> 01:19:00.876
assumes architects planners and people
who are that much more interested

01:19:00.909 --> 01:19:04.277
from the lay public will read it. Can
I ask you a question and you write

01:19:04.310 --> 01:19:07.336
differently? I've written for both.
You write a little differently, Let me

01:19:07.369 --> 01:19:11.246
let me ask you a question which is the
reverse that you might have because

01:19:11.279 --> 01:19:16.937
architecture deals with um big bucks
projects and it does deal with large

01:19:16.970 --> 01:19:20.057
group decisions. What about the effect
of the industry on the critic and I

01:19:20.090 --> 01:19:23.137
can give you an example. They used to
be a real good writer and critic

01:19:23.170 --> 01:19:27.126
named john past year who used to write
for the L. A. Times for a while and

01:19:27.159 --> 01:19:30.477
he was a real good architecture
critic. And the times, you know, was and

01:19:30.510 --> 01:19:35.267
this thing is becoming a major
newspaper in the in the in the full sense

01:19:35.300 --> 01:19:40.597
and he got bounced and I I don't care
if I libelous or what, but the but

01:19:40.630 --> 01:19:43.887
the word out on the street was, but he
just started messing with downtown

01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:47.717
redevelopment in downtown
redevelopment was the baby of the chandlers and

01:19:47.750 --> 01:19:51.387
the Chandler zone the Times. So it's
goodbye art architecture critic. I

01:19:51.420 --> 01:19:57.067
doubt whether in the field of art you
could run up against a kind of No,

01:19:57.100 --> 01:20:01.637
but you can as a normal newspaper
writer very easily to criticize anything

01:20:01.670 --> 01:20:04.717
to do with grocery stores runs you in
terrific trouble because those are

01:20:04.750 --> 01:20:08.756
major advertisers etcetera, etcetera
etcetera. There's a lot of ways in

01:20:08.789 --> 01:20:14.527
which newspaper cannot have integrity.
This is one of uh, as to whether it

01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:17.847
affects architecture critics. Hands on
the medal of the human being. I

01:20:17.880 --> 01:20:23.177
don't think we see large changes over
time and personal.

01:20:23.210 --> 01:20:26.586
No, but it's a big bucks thing. I
couldn't see the times art critic

01:20:26.619 --> 01:20:30.626
getting fired because he panda show
that you could see some very serious

01:20:30.659 --> 01:20:33.847
things happen to the urban affairs
editor. That's who the architecture

01:20:33.880 --> 01:20:38.347
critic. Well, theater critics get that
because sometimes newspaper people

01:20:38.380 --> 01:20:41.147
have put money into a show and then
that gets banned by the same. That's

01:20:41.180 --> 01:20:43.937
got to be a pretty crummy little
paper. Did that happen to new york times

01:20:43.970 --> 01:20:48.677
? Pretty but

01:20:48.710 --> 01:20:51.956
also don't you find go into details,
But it did. But also don't you find

01:20:51.989 --> 01:20:55.927
that sometimes a hostile criticism
might be the best shot in the arm that

01:20:55.960 --> 01:21:03.960
play or perhaps even a show, whatever
could get. I've often found that a

01:21:03.979 --> 01:21:06.857
little sophisticated for newspaper
editors to think, I don't know about

01:21:06.890 --> 01:21:10.416
that. But what is to what you're
saying? The other thing you run into far

01:21:10.449 --> 01:21:15.017
more than the old vested interests
thing. What you run into is the fact

01:21:15.050 --> 01:21:18.296
that everybody thinks they have
opinions on anything to do with the arts.

01:21:18.329 --> 01:21:21.487
Because God knows it's not technical.
God knows there's nothing tricky to

01:21:21.520 --> 01:21:26.666
it. It's like everyone has taste. And
so you get an editor or another

01:21:26.699 --> 01:21:30.206
reporter or something who has a better
opinion. This happens at movies and

01:21:30.239 --> 01:21:33.857
art and everything else. And that can
become serious conflicts. You see

01:21:33.890 --> 01:21:39.876
your copy rewritten, people get
changed around

01:21:39.909 --> 01:21:43.406
movie critics that don't like really
trashing movies getting it's more so

01:21:43.439 --> 01:21:46.196
in movies because more people have
opinions on movies, but it's true in

01:21:46.229 --> 01:21:50.876
all of it. And it's pretty common.

01:21:50.909 --> 01:21:54.237
Let me say, let me just say one short
thing in favor of critics in a

01:21:54.270 --> 01:21:58.756
particular field, which is the sort of
art gallery, art field. I think

01:21:58.789 --> 01:22:04.506
that one of the big differences
between and having been in l a most of my

01:22:04.539 --> 01:22:08.696
professional life is one of the, one
of the great differences between Los

01:22:08.729 --> 01:22:12.706
Angeles or southern California and new
york in terms of the intensity and

01:22:12.739 --> 01:22:15.777
the weight of the art scene, which was
much greater in new york. I don't

01:22:15.810 --> 01:22:19.607
think there's much argument about it.
Uh you'll get arguments about is it

01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:23.996
a good thing or is it bad? But it is,
is the presence of critics? I mean,

01:22:24.029 --> 01:22:27.027
God knows, there are enough artists in
southern California there just

01:22:27.060 --> 01:22:30.006
there hanging out. You know, they're
hanging by the rafters. And what has

01:22:30.039 --> 01:22:32.987
always separated the kind of intensity
of the scene in Los Angeles from

01:22:33.020 --> 01:22:36.387
the one in new york is simply that
there wasn't anybody out in southern

01:22:36.420 --> 01:22:42.387
California writing seriously about
art. Maybe one or two people and it

01:22:42.420 --> 01:22:46.626
wasn't enough to stir the pot. Well,
it's obviously why? Because it's not

01:22:46.659 --> 01:22:50.067
the marketplace for like new york is
That's right, yeah, simple as that.

01:22:50.100 --> 01:22:54.567
But there were hardest there, but
there wasn't a market for it. So yeah,

01:22:54.600 --> 01:22:57.586
What the buyers have to know what's in
Dubai don't, especially if they

01:22:57.619 --> 01:23:01.506
have a lot of, a lot of people have
more money than taste. It takes a few

01:23:01.539 --> 01:23:04.807
very few people who walked in and
bought a lot of things just because they

01:23:04.840 --> 01:23:07.897
felt they were right and in the end
they were vindicated. But the average

01:23:07.930 --> 01:23:13.027
buyer is really quite timid soul and
wants to know he's got himself a nice

01:23:13.060 --> 01:23:16.437
investment and that's where the
investing is done for the local people who

01:23:16.470 --> 01:23:19.576
go to new york to buy it there because
then they think they're getting the

01:23:19.609 --> 01:23:27.199
genuine article. Well, sure, David has
something to say. I had no harm.

01:23:36.600 --> 01:23:38.600
Right.

01:23:39.800 --> 01:23:42.387
Mm.

01:23:42.420 --> 01:23:46.567
There are better reasons than that.

01:23:46.600 --> 01:23:53.496
The city's major war. Well, one thing
I might say on that is that a lot of

01:23:53.529 --> 01:23:56.357
cases, especially in the case of large
public sculpture, there's no

01:23:56.390 --> 01:24:01.987
individual uh, patron or collector.
They can afford to buy a large culture

01:24:02.020 --> 01:24:07.647
stable or di Suvero uh kinetic piece
or whatever. But I think I think from

01:24:07.680 --> 01:24:12.527
my own personal experience with a lot
of the uh people that I'm dealing

01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:16.177
with here in the southwest, as far as
my own career goes that I've gone

01:24:16.210 --> 01:24:19.086
into some homes where people are
starting to acquire my things not only

01:24:19.119 --> 01:24:25.057
for investment reasons, but uh for for
the pure aesthetic aspects of it,

01:24:25.090 --> 01:24:29.347
I've just had my head spun by going in
and seeing Jackson Pollocks and de

01:24:29.380 --> 01:24:34.246
kooning's and and Rothko's and and and
things. These really big guns in

01:24:34.279 --> 01:24:38.067
these homes and people and these
people are continuing to collect young

01:24:38.100 --> 01:24:42.866
artists, not only young and and
unheard of, but but other established

01:24:42.899 --> 01:24:48.126
masters and lesser works. And I
realize you gentlemen are not from this

01:24:48.159 --> 01:24:52.326
area and perhaps don't realize that
there is this perhaps mushrooming

01:24:52.359 --> 01:24:56.656
market here and the people from new
york that have the seasonal homes here

01:24:56.689 --> 01:24:59.727
that do have these large collections
that are continuing to acquire work

01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:04.536
on, on quite a large scale. And they
would even even if it's true because

01:25:04.569 --> 01:25:08.166
I know enough painters and buyers in
new york to have some sense of this,

01:25:08.199 --> 01:25:12.557
even if it's true that in a large part
of the big buying things seems to

01:25:12.590 --> 01:25:15.796
be government and municipal things,
those aren't the taste makers, the

01:25:15.829 --> 01:25:18.987
ones who are the ones who are buying
the smaller people, they're the ones

01:25:19.020 --> 01:25:22.956
who eventually have a great deal to do
with who has bought in, you know,

01:25:22.989 --> 01:25:25.897
in Prudential Plaza and like that,
that's really how it comes out. So they

01:25:25.930 --> 01:25:28.217
are really, even though they're a
small part of it, they are the ones that

01:25:28.250 --> 01:25:32.706
make the difference. There's a there's
another side of the business, the

01:25:32.739 --> 01:25:35.826
function of critics besides the kind
of intermediary between the artist of

01:25:35.859 --> 01:25:39.156
whatever discipline and the market.
And when I said the difference between

01:25:39.189 --> 01:25:42.336
the intensity of the new york art
world in that in southern California, I

01:25:42.369 --> 01:25:46.036
wasn't referring specifically or even
in large part to the business of the

01:25:46.069 --> 01:25:50.937
flow of the market. I was talking
about. It is a generality, the art in

01:25:50.970 --> 01:25:54.807
new york and the artists were a little
sharper, a little heavier dealing

01:25:54.840 --> 01:25:58.706
with a little more important issues a
little more ahead of the time. Why?

01:25:58.739 --> 01:26:04.147
Because they had the pot kept
continually boiling because you had Barbara

01:26:04.180 --> 01:26:07.607
Rose and Rose Cross and Michael Freed
and Peter Sheldon data, data data

01:26:07.640 --> 01:26:11.977
and about 25 names all at the same
time saying, I think this body of work

01:26:12.010 --> 01:26:15.357
means this and some artists saying, Oh
that's terribly full of sh it, I'm

01:26:15.390 --> 01:26:17.967
going to go out and do something
against it. And the thing was kept moving

01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:22.456
, whereas in in L. A. That kind of
thing, it's a little more laid back and

01:26:22.489 --> 01:26:25.977
what the artists have to turn to our
themselves and this probably goes

01:26:26.010 --> 01:26:29.857
against the grain of a lot of
individual artist kind of mythology. I'm an

01:26:29.890 --> 01:26:34.847
artist. I probably rankle at it as
much as anything, but

01:26:34.880 --> 01:26:39.366
most artists need a little bit more
than them just themselves in an empty

01:26:39.399 --> 01:26:44.517
room and time to think, you know,
there is some kind of cultural tumult or

01:26:44.550 --> 01:26:47.927
whatever, you know, and I think it's
the one thing that critics in an

01:26:47.960 --> 01:26:54.147
urban area supply,

01:26:54.180 --> 01:27:02.180
they were all what go on, understand
the world and they were getting

01:27:02.680 --> 01:27:06.217
smart. Yes,

01:27:06.250 --> 01:27:12.946
good job briefing

01:27:12.979 --> 01:27:15.847
11.

01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:22.746
Well, there's such heart new york.
Everything

01:27:22.779 --> 01:27:25.246
right

01:27:25.279 --> 01:27:33.279
and possible. Well what, that's what a
credit card right before. Uh huh.

01:27:37.880 --> 01:27:39.880
Yeah.

01:27:43.380 --> 01:27:47.246
Yeah.

01:27:47.279 --> 01:27:51.046
Well before I think, yeah,

01:27:51.079 --> 01:27:55.677
we get I'd like to hear from Dennis
because this is yeah, you know, you

01:27:55.710 --> 01:27:59.156
want to hear from me. Yeah, I'm
listening to this debate with some

01:27:59.189 --> 01:28:03.017
interest, it's really sharp by the way
this Dennis Sharp founder editor of

01:28:03.050 --> 01:28:05.887
the architectural association
quarterly. And I was thinking how different

01:28:05.920 --> 01:28:09.326
all this is from the magazine that I
have run for the last 10 years in

01:28:09.359 --> 01:28:14.116
which we never ever pay for a single
contribution or even a photograph the

01:28:14.149 --> 01:28:20.137
contributions coming in great bundles
every quarter. Um We're a magazine

01:28:20.170 --> 01:28:26.147
entirely devoted to ideas, history,
philosophy of architecture. And we

01:28:26.180 --> 01:28:31.467
keep away like a red rag from a bull
from the commercial guys. Because I

01:28:31.500 --> 01:28:35.076
think the trouble with architectural
criticism and architectural publicity

01:28:35.109 --> 01:28:39.187
on the whole, it's concerned with
either career development of an

01:28:39.220 --> 01:28:44.347
architect or self emulation. Some of
the other architectural magazines I

01:28:44.380 --> 01:28:51.357
worked for in the UK often find that
their desks are can piled high

01:28:51.390 --> 01:28:56.326
littered with architects trying to get
their work into architectural

01:28:56.359 --> 01:28:59.687
magazines. So much of what you see, I
think this is even true of the

01:28:59.720 --> 01:29:03.097
United States, much of what you see in
architectural magazines has not on

01:29:03.130 --> 01:29:07.347
the whole been pre selected carefully
by editors because it has certain

01:29:07.380 --> 01:29:11.317
qualities, but simply because there's
a pressure from the firm or from the

01:29:11.350 --> 01:29:15.036
client or from other people to get it
published. So we find that we can

01:29:15.069 --> 01:29:19.586
only publish without advertising. And
that really does bring in some

01:29:19.619 --> 01:29:23.137
commercial considerations,

01:29:23.170 --> 01:29:28.637
Dennis eric, I would take exception
from the experience that I've had. Yes

01:29:28.670 --> 01:29:32.437
, that all these things are sent into
architectural magazines constantly.

01:29:32.470 --> 01:29:36.607
And yes, many of them are published,
but not that a magazine is really in

01:29:36.640 --> 01:29:39.807
a position to be pressured. I've never
known an advertiser to really give

01:29:39.840 --> 01:29:45.616
a damn what is actually published. Um
and I have known one of the things

01:29:45.649 --> 01:29:49.307
is that all these things have very
small staffs and very small budgets.

01:29:49.340 --> 01:29:56.017
And what it tends to be is what one
knows is to a fair extent, a result of

01:29:56.050 --> 01:29:59.567
what comes across one's desk. I think
it's all that more innocent and

01:29:59.600 --> 01:30:02.857
harder to cure. I think that there's a
great difference in the way we

01:30:02.890 --> 01:30:06.086
publish. I'm thinking very much of the
english weekly is when we have a

01:30:06.119 --> 01:30:09.277
lot of english weekly architectural
publications which are specialist

01:30:09.310 --> 01:30:14.807
publications which purport to be
critical Vehicles. So, again, it differs

01:30:14.840 --> 01:30:18.927
like the J-like building design,
building magazine there about five of

01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:21.586
them and two of them, there's the
largest circulation architectural

01:30:21.619 --> 01:30:26.406
magazines in the whole world. I mean,
they're into 30 or 40 copies each

01:30:26.439 --> 01:30:33.166
week. So, the situation is different
in that case. Mm hmm. Okay, Can I do

01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:38.057
this? Because there is one one very
extraordinary thing that happens in

01:30:38.090 --> 01:30:44.647
architectural criticism in this
country. Uhh, and that is that the people

01:30:44.680 --> 01:30:49.626
who who exert the greatest pressure on
the magazines, All those lovely

01:30:49.659 --> 01:30:55.717
liberal um broad minded people who
believe in complete freedom of the

01:30:55.750 --> 01:30:59.546
press and so on. Namely your friends
and mine, the leading architects of

01:30:59.579 --> 01:31:05.416
the world, who will penalize any
magazine that so much as dares to publish

01:31:05.449 --> 01:31:09.847
anything critical of their work. I'd
like to mention names. Although I

01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:15.317
think I probably shouldn't. The All
right. I will mention one name.

01:31:15.350 --> 01:31:19.427
Specifically Paul Rudolph who was a
very old friend of mine Did a

01:31:19.460 --> 01:31:24.246
building at Yale in which was
completed in the Middle 60s called the Yale

01:31:24.279 --> 01:31:28.357
School of Art and Architecture. And it
was given a tremendous sort of puff

01:31:28.390 --> 01:31:33.256
review by my magazine, the
architectural forum at the time. Um And about

01:31:33.289 --> 01:31:38.626
three or four years later we found
that the building did not work at all.

01:31:38.659 --> 01:31:43.126
And we then did a very, very thorough
job written by Ellen Parade at

01:31:43.159 --> 01:31:47.687
Berkeley, photographed again showing
how the school is actually falling

01:31:47.720 --> 01:31:52.626
apart. That was being destroyed by its
students who found it unworkable,

01:31:52.659 --> 01:31:56.956
who found it offensive in many ways.
And we did very, very honest piece on

01:31:56.989 --> 01:32:03.326
this building. After that paul told
me, first of all, he didn't speak to

01:32:03.359 --> 01:32:10.887
me for several years. But prior to the
fact prior to stopping um talking

01:32:10.920 --> 01:32:15.656
to me, he announced to me that no
magazine that I would ever be connected

01:32:15.689 --> 01:32:19.536
with would ever again be permitted to
publish any of his work. And there

01:32:19.569 --> 01:32:25.156
are architects today, including people
like um well some of them, I will

01:32:25.189 --> 01:32:30.006
not mention any more names who write
into the contract that they have with

01:32:30.039 --> 01:32:34.496
their clients, that they will control
the publicity on any building that

01:32:34.529 --> 01:32:40.637
they designed. It is the most
incredible piece of totalitarian censorship

01:32:40.670 --> 01:32:44.717
being exercised by any group of
artists in the world today. And these are

01:32:44.750 --> 01:32:49.416
not merely american artists, but also
architects, but also one of the

01:32:49.449 --> 01:32:55.097
leading british architects. Uh the so
the real censorship has not come in.

01:32:55.130 --> 01:33:00.496
My experience from um advertisers, but
from architects whose work is so

01:33:00.529 --> 01:33:04.737
important that no magazine can really
survive without being in a position

01:33:04.770 --> 01:33:10.656
to review their buildings. If for
example, if if uh power scenario were to

01:33:10.689 --> 01:33:15.767
decide that a magazine that I I edited
uh had some said something

01:33:15.800 --> 01:33:18.826
offensive or something critical of his
work and were then to decide that I

01:33:18.859 --> 01:33:21.567
would never be again be permitted to
publish any of the buildings that he

01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:25.967
designed. We would be very badly hurt.
Our credibility would be very badly

01:33:26.000 --> 01:33:31.847
affected. And so it's the architects
who are the worst offenders in in

01:33:31.880 --> 01:33:38.937
doctoring the press in in managing the
news and managing criticism and in

01:33:38.970 --> 01:33:44.946
stifling criticism. And I think this
should be said rare that it seems to

01:33:44.979 --> 01:33:49.067
be on that committee. I think Peter
one thing you can mention is one of

01:33:49.100 --> 01:33:52.467
the places this at least in modern
times started was Frank Lloyd Wright,

01:33:52.500 --> 01:33:56.227
who never let one word be published
about him without total approval of

01:33:56.260 --> 01:34:01.237
copy. And and this is the right now.
It's a kind of interesting problem

01:34:01.270 --> 01:34:05.727
because, you know, city officials also
don't like being criticized a whole

01:34:05.760 --> 01:34:09.147
lot. What's happened is the
architectural press and it may be built into

01:34:09.180 --> 01:34:12.097
the situation has not figured out how
to get around it when you do

01:34:12.130 --> 01:34:16.567
political articles and I've done, I've
done straight newspaper work. You

01:34:16.600 --> 01:34:20.477
can always say these facts. These
facts. These facts, these facts. So and

01:34:20.510 --> 01:34:25.427
so no comment. So and so refuses to
answer questions relating to this

01:34:25.460 --> 01:34:29.347
subject. You can embarrass them
politically. And if you really want to get

01:34:29.380 --> 01:34:33.567
hold of a statement from them, you can
say, call them up and say, I am

01:34:33.600 --> 01:34:37.027
writing a subject on thus and thus,
and thus my conclusion will be these

01:34:37.060 --> 01:34:41.217
horrible things which will fry you in
the face of the public. Do you wish

01:34:41.250 --> 01:34:46.326
to say something? So, you've got them?
Um at least it's right in front of

01:34:46.359 --> 01:34:50.357
the public. What actually happened?
Nothing happens in the architectural

01:34:50.390 --> 01:34:54.376
press to indicate that paul, Rudolph
will not be published in this issue

01:34:54.409 --> 01:35:00.946
or further issues because he is
throwing a fit of pique. Yeah. And we

01:35:00.979 --> 01:35:06.206
haven't figured out a device the way
journalists have the among the things

01:35:06.239 --> 01:35:11.836
, you know, these incredible nixonian
plots that go on among architects to

01:35:11.869 --> 01:35:16.477
manage the news. Um there are some
architects, including some of my very

01:35:16.510 --> 01:35:20.586
best friends in England and in this
country who will see to it that the

01:35:20.619 --> 01:35:25.307
photographs that you get are they
retouched that they are cropped in

01:35:25.340 --> 01:35:30.756
certain ways, that only the best side
or the better sides of a given

01:35:30.789 --> 01:35:36.487
building show. Um that are in fact, so
pre selected that it's almost

01:35:36.520 --> 01:35:41.956
impossible to do a decent job of
covering the building and really showing

01:35:41.989 --> 01:35:47.406
it in its context. I I have seen a
great many photographs by my friend Jim

01:35:47.439 --> 01:35:54.206
sterling, which were doctored heavily
censored heavily before being

01:35:54.239 --> 01:35:58.357
released publication. I've seen many
photographs by my friend Marcel

01:35:58.390 --> 01:36:03.286
breuer which was airbrushed to change
the architecture to change the

01:36:03.319 --> 01:36:06.456
buildings. In fact, after the fact and
this is, you know, these are some

01:36:06.489 --> 01:36:14.489
of the leading lights of the liberal
left um among architects today. I

01:36:16.210 --> 01:36:22.086
just couldn't, I just wanted one more
exactly along those lines. I

01:36:22.119 --> 01:36:28.817
recently published a building by
eventually and we didn't use his

01:36:28.850 --> 01:36:31.326
photographs because they'd all been
recently published. He only had a

01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:36.506
handful. And so we used our own and
you just furious. And the reason he

01:36:36.539 --> 01:36:39.956
was furious when you got all the way
down to it was because the

01:36:39.989 --> 01:36:44.487
photographs had been taken from
various diagonals as opposed to straight

01:36:44.520 --> 01:36:49.567
on shots and the position they were
taking was that there were only five

01:36:49.600 --> 01:36:52.237
good photographs of any building and
that you have to look at his

01:36:52.270 --> 01:36:55.807
buildings straight on. You can't look
at them from a dangle and you were

01:36:55.840 --> 01:36:58.906
really tempted, I was quite polite
instead. But you really tempted to say

01:36:58.939 --> 01:37:04.046
, you know, bob do you have Arthur
Murray dance steps at the building for

01:37:04.079 --> 01:37:07.637
when you take people to look at them
for people to stand in that close

01:37:07.670 --> 01:37:10.296
your eyes until you get to this point
and close your eyes. But again like

01:37:10.329 --> 01:37:14.456
that, that's cute. But this did not
strike them as an absurd sense and

01:37:14.489 --> 01:37:18.517
they're not that unusual. What Peter
says is absolutely true. I think what

01:37:18.550 --> 01:37:20.756
you're talking about is something that
any one of us has ever been

01:37:20.789 --> 01:37:24.696
interviewed has had terrible moments
about. And that is seeing what you

01:37:24.729 --> 01:37:30.416
said in print. Um, I think that you
see aside from having been a composer

01:37:30.449 --> 01:37:34.237
and sometimes pianist, I also have
been an accompanist for my wife, joan

01:37:34.270 --> 01:37:38.996
Morris. And we're fairly often
interviewed by all kinds of people. And

01:37:39.029 --> 01:37:43.357
it's not necessarily a wonderful
experience. It's often rather dreadful

01:37:43.390 --> 01:37:46.126
one because the terrible day comes.
You see all those things you were

01:37:46.159 --> 01:37:50.647
purported to have said over the phone
or with the critics sitting there

01:37:50.680 --> 01:37:56.116
scribbling down what you're supposed
to have said. And at first when I

01:37:56.149 --> 01:37:59.376
began to see these dreadful things
coming back in print, I began to think

01:37:59.409 --> 01:38:02.977
, well, now, just a darn minute did I
really say that? I probably didn't,

01:38:03.010 --> 01:38:06.416
I didn't say that, that man is putting
words into my mouth. And sometimes

01:38:06.449 --> 01:38:12.527
with a lesser critic or West, no less?
Well, uh, intention. Critic, one

01:38:12.560 --> 01:38:15.956
who has a sort of a mean streak in
him. It's true. They will look at all

01:38:15.989 --> 01:38:18.527
the nasty things you say. But you know
how it is when we're sitting here.

01:38:18.560 --> 01:38:23.006
Uh, Peter just mentioned a couple of
people. And if I were a bad critic, I

01:38:23.039 --> 01:38:26.416
would sit there. Well, peter blanket
just lambasted X and Y critic. You

01:38:26.449 --> 01:38:28.347
know, these are all terrible people
and that's the whole thing. You're

01:38:28.380 --> 01:38:30.996
going to read the words. That's the
thing that the critic picks out. We

01:38:31.029 --> 01:38:34.326
all tend to editorialize as writers. I
think of having been a bit of a

01:38:34.359 --> 01:38:37.187
writer myself. I know what it's about.
You can't help but do it. You

01:38:37.220 --> 01:38:40.296
editorializes as a photographer. We
all editorialize, you can't help it.

01:38:40.329 --> 01:38:44.536
But to be able to come out with an
absolutely straight simple interview,

01:38:44.569 --> 01:38:47.967
even with a person with a tape
recording right down there in front of you

01:38:48.000 --> 01:38:51.706
find yourself doing an awful thing.
You find yourself editing yourself for

01:38:51.739 --> 01:38:56.027
print as you go and you realize that
this is happening. You're you're

01:38:56.060 --> 01:38:59.027
doing this for two reasons. You're
doing this because you don't want

01:38:59.060 --> 01:39:02.876
people to get the wrong idea. Number
one, number two, you've found

01:39:02.909 --> 01:39:06.616
yourself having to say there's several
Things over and over and over again

01:39:06.649 --> 01:39:09.666
after the 27th interview with the same
kind of subject with a different

01:39:09.699 --> 01:39:12.366
kind of people. You find yourself
repeating yourself, inevitably, you find

01:39:12.399 --> 01:39:16.496
a nice way to say it and there it is
and why bother. You know why I say it

01:39:16.529 --> 01:39:20.857
all over again and with all of this
happening. The candidness. I think of

01:39:20.890 --> 01:39:23.977
the old interviews begins to go by the
reason I'm mentioning this is

01:39:24.010 --> 01:39:28.307
because I'm sure maybe venturi might
know may have an image of himself as

01:39:28.340 --> 01:39:31.397
an architect doesn't agree with with
what people see when they see a

01:39:31.430 --> 01:39:34.786
picture. He probably was shocked.
Maybe he knows his own elevation

01:39:34.819 --> 01:39:37.456
drawings better than he knows the
picture of what is, you know, what

01:39:37.489 --> 01:39:40.177
building looks like that. I think we
all had this sort of odd thing. We

01:39:40.210 --> 01:39:43.916
never do see ourselves as others see
us and that's sort of given and it's

01:39:43.949 --> 01:39:49.256
very it's very humbling and almost
humiliating experience to see your own

01:39:49.289 --> 01:39:52.817
words come back. You get angry at your
own kind of colloquialisms. You

01:39:52.850 --> 01:39:55.677
begin to say I didn't really mean that
person any harm but there isn't

01:39:55.710 --> 01:39:59.256
cold print, that's so final. You know,
it is a terrible thing. It's quite

01:39:59.289 --> 01:40:01.347
a different thing from sitting around
and having beers and says, oh I

01:40:01.380 --> 01:40:04.977
don't like the music of X, Y, Z. But
to see somebody having put it in

01:40:05.010 --> 01:40:08.647
print, then the guy reads it and then
then then then we don't talk for six

01:40:08.680 --> 01:40:11.456
months. I mean that's that's a
different matter. That's the that's the

01:40:11.489 --> 01:40:14.416
finality of print. And I think that's
part of the function of the critic.

01:40:14.449 --> 01:40:18.576
They do tend to have this sort of
marvelous written in brass quality does

01:40:18.609 --> 01:40:21.246
have that. We think that we're making
something final about that. I

01:40:21.279 --> 01:40:23.927
remember that whole flap about the art
and architecture building because

01:40:23.960 --> 01:40:27.307
it happened when I was at Yale. But
the point of the fact is that now this

01:40:27.340 --> 01:40:32.177
10 years past, it's been forgotten and
the buildings. No, it has. No, no,

01:40:32.210 --> 01:40:36.717
it hasn't everybody else. It has. It's
now appearing in the textbooks is a

01:40:36.750 --> 01:40:40.296
classic example of the only you people
know about that, what I'm saying

01:40:40.329 --> 01:40:44.126
about that. I used to think about the
terrible flaps between me and other

01:40:44.159 --> 01:40:47.166
musicians and I think we've all had
our own little kind of little

01:40:47.199 --> 01:40:50.517
brannigan and this all happens for a
while. As I'm saying, the general

01:40:50.550 --> 01:40:54.376
public was aware of that. And I, and I
sort of remember all that little

01:40:54.409 --> 01:40:57.817
kind of interesting uh puritanism
going around. I'm not I'm not an

01:40:57.850 --> 01:41:01.237
architect, what I'm telling you is
what we remember as non architects. Now

01:41:01.270 --> 01:41:04.097
, I haven't heard about that whole
flat for years. You may still be

01:41:04.130 --> 01:41:07.467
talking about it. We sure aren't. And
all the things that happened to us,

01:41:07.500 --> 01:41:10.487
or maybe a momentary interest to the
general public. And I've forgotten to

01:41:10.520 --> 01:41:14.357
bad ideas that have been developed
from that in similar situations are

01:41:14.390 --> 01:41:18.397
part of the public understanding of
art. That's a major case. That's

01:41:18.430 --> 01:41:24.796
scarcely a personality. People uhh
Yeah, I think the trouble with the kind

01:41:24.829 --> 01:41:28.756
of thing we've isolated here is that,
on the whole, architecture is, as I

01:41:28.789 --> 01:41:33.246
said at the outset, still very much a
thing which is dealt with in terms

01:41:33.279 --> 01:41:36.876
of viewing the buildings as they go up
at any specific time and there's an

01:41:36.909 --> 01:41:40.256
enormous lack and maybe the other
architecture critics might come in on

01:41:40.289 --> 01:41:44.777
this is an enormous lack of real
straightforward architectural criticism.

01:41:44.810 --> 01:41:49.036
Um publishing a building when its
current recently produced by an

01:41:49.069 --> 01:41:52.116
architect giving all the technical
know how on that building is all very

01:41:52.149 --> 01:41:56.326
well. I find certain internationally
there's a terrible paucity of

01:41:56.359 --> 01:42:01.527
criticizing buildings as such in
Britain certainly we don't have an

01:42:01.560 --> 01:42:07.376
architectural magazine that on the
whole covers buildings in a way which

01:42:07.409 --> 01:42:12.227
enables you to understand their place
in time and in society at the point.

01:42:12.260 --> 01:42:15.376
And they're built. In fact, the best
architectural magazine on british

01:42:15.409 --> 01:42:19.137
architecture at the moment has to come
out of Tokyo of all Places and it's

01:42:19.170 --> 01:42:22.147
called Architecture and Urbanism. I
think it's one of the finest magazines

01:42:22.180 --> 01:42:26.796
I've ever seen, but it's most odd to
see it in that context. The other

01:42:26.829 --> 01:42:32.836
criticisms usually historical. Yeah, I
think that's that's true and I

01:42:32.869 --> 01:42:36.446
think that's unlike literature. You
think of the new york review of books

01:42:36.479 --> 01:42:40.256
, They criticized books. You think of
art magazines, they criticize shows

01:42:40.289 --> 01:42:42.897
that's very specific, I think has a
lot to do with what Peter was talking

01:42:42.930 --> 01:42:45.916
about. But this is the dilemma that's
arisen in this discussion that were

01:42:45.949 --> 01:42:51.546
popular, you know, the the
architecture critic as an equivalent of the art

01:42:51.579 --> 01:42:55.977
critic, the drama critic, that dance
critic is simply not there, the

01:42:56.010 --> 01:42:59.616
commentator on architecture and the
promoter of particular architects

01:42:59.649 --> 01:43:02.847
buildings is there. But the actual
critic as an independent voice

01:43:02.880 --> 01:43:07.307
specializing very much. I mean there
are exceptions, notable exceptions.

01:43:07.340 --> 01:43:13.506
We have one here mrs huxtable and
others also exists in that category, but

01:43:13.539 --> 01:43:16.597
they're very, very few and far between
and they're certainly not

01:43:16.630 --> 01:43:20.987
consistently criticizing in the
architectural periodicals and

01:43:21.020 --> 01:43:25.286
international Davies. Well, one thing
that I would like to say in defense

01:43:25.319 --> 01:43:31.727
for myself and my fellow visual
artists, I'm in very deep sympathy with Mr

01:43:31.760 --> 01:43:35.987
blake about the situation that he has
faced with with this magazine with

01:43:36.020 --> 01:43:41.387
architects of holding back, you know,
writes and photographs and

01:43:41.420 --> 01:43:47.437
intimidation by uh, advertisers and
whatever. But you must realize that

01:43:47.470 --> 01:43:51.706
when you're dealing with with
architects and architecture, you're not only

01:43:51.739 --> 01:43:55.237
dealing with an individual talent,
however great it might be, but you're

01:43:55.270 --> 01:43:58.206
dealing with his office and you're
dealing with his corporate backers,

01:43:58.239 --> 01:44:02.267
whoever they may be. And whereas in
the case with the, with the uh

01:44:02.300 --> 01:44:07.517
playwright or the painter or the
sculptor, uh, art critic comes out and

01:44:07.550 --> 01:44:14.177
can outrightly vilify and peace a
visual artist unless he's really got

01:44:14.210 --> 01:44:17.916
some bucks, he has no means of
fighting back. And I find that to be a

01:44:17.949 --> 01:44:24.147
really a pitiful state. Uh, what's
going on today? Another thing too, is,

01:44:24.180 --> 01:44:28.626
uh, and usually the building gets
criticized after the fact after has been

01:44:28.659 --> 01:44:32.427
built. And even if it is with public
funds, how are, how are they going to

01:44:32.460 --> 01:44:36.046
turn down, tear down our vastly
remodel a public building after so many

01:44:36.079 --> 01:44:40.677
million dollars has been expended on
it. So there's there's the architect

01:44:40.710 --> 01:44:44.687
has a certain defense in that respect,
whereas the visual artist unless

01:44:44.720 --> 01:44:48.286
he's like I said, it has a lot of
bucks is virtually defenseless. Another

01:44:48.319 --> 01:44:52.156
thing that this is really, I don't
know how peter feels about this, but

01:44:52.189 --> 01:44:56.786
also after an artist dies, the
situation with the states of the artist.

01:44:56.819 --> 01:45:01.057
And oftentimes critics are often asked
having befriended a particular

01:45:01.090 --> 01:45:05.006
artist and here I'm gonna get on a
soapbox and take a stab at Clement

01:45:05.039 --> 01:45:08.906
Greenberg uh particular instance was
the work of the late David smith.

01:45:08.939 --> 01:45:13.376
Where Greenberg here or stamos and I
believe I can't remember the critics

01:45:13.409 --> 01:45:18.076
uh attorney's name in Washington D. C.
Were entrusted with this man's

01:45:18.109 --> 01:45:23.746
legacy. And uh here Clement Greenberg
who is so profoundly praised smith

01:45:23.779 --> 01:45:27.586
during his career. And while he was
alive, as soon as the man was, man had

01:45:27.619 --> 01:45:32.347
not been in his grave more than a year
or two at the most. Uh Mr Greenberg

01:45:32.380 --> 01:45:36.987
took it upon himself to uh go into
smith's studio of bolton landing and

01:45:37.020 --> 01:45:40.656
take some of the pieces that he had
left in a semi finished state. Uh

01:45:40.689 --> 01:45:45.097
They've been down to the primary and
smith was very adamant about his work

01:45:45.130 --> 01:45:48.027
and having been tampered with by
others. I won't go into it. But there's a

01:45:48.060 --> 01:45:52.446
very well known case uh dealing with a
piece of sculpture. His that was

01:45:52.479 --> 01:45:56.446
repainted after a client had purchased
it and he wrote an open letter to

01:45:56.479 --> 01:46:02.956
art news branding it a vandalized
ruin. But Mr Greenberg took it upon

01:46:02.989 --> 01:46:07.307
himself to take these pieces, some of
which had the primary autumn, the

01:46:07.340 --> 01:46:10.717
under painting in some cases the
actual painting that smith had put on

01:46:10.750 --> 01:46:15.437
them and it started to decay and
actually had them sandblasted, rusted and

01:46:15.470 --> 01:46:20.017
varnished. And I think this is a great
travesty on the part of you know,

01:46:20.050 --> 01:46:24.317
smith rolled over in his grave, I'm
sure when that happened, but uh I

01:46:24.350 --> 01:46:27.687
think it's a great travesty on the
part of critics and I think this is one

01:46:27.720 --> 01:46:31.336
of the reasons why artists tend to
really distrust them and how they've

01:46:31.369 --> 01:46:35.927
gotten their, their their villainous
image is by acts such as that and and

01:46:35.960 --> 01:46:40.937
uh you know, being, being totally two
faced about what they're, who they

01:46:40.970 --> 01:46:48.737
are. Uhh Clement Greenberg probably
serves as well as anybody else does in

01:46:48.770 --> 01:46:53.027
the role of villain One, a very rich
and powerful men and two, he has been

01:46:53.060 --> 01:46:57.977
for a long time probably since the,
since the public peak of abstract

01:46:58.010 --> 01:47:00.796
expressionism and all through the 60s.
And he still carries a lot of cloud

01:47:00.829 --> 01:47:06.406
, the closest thing to an absolute
taste maker that you could get. But and

01:47:06.439 --> 01:47:09.866
I want to lead into something. All
critics are not Clement Greenberg or

01:47:09.899 --> 01:47:13.307
even in the position to do those kinds
of things. Should they have that

01:47:13.340 --> 01:47:17.487
kind of temperament and what I would
like to come back to and ask a

01:47:17.520 --> 01:47:22.717
question over there is in a minute is
who are the architecture critics and

01:47:22.750 --> 01:47:26.517
how do they get to be that way and how
do they get those, those jobs? And

01:47:26.550 --> 01:47:29.086
what you're thinking about answer, I
want to say, I want to point out a

01:47:29.119 --> 01:47:32.987
kind of paradox that exist at least
with art magazines. And I would

01:47:33.020 --> 01:47:36.067
imagine the situation with
architecture magazines and somewhat the same,

01:47:36.100 --> 01:47:41.746
which is that if you pay an art critic
a couple of 100 bucks an article

01:47:41.779 --> 01:47:45.637
Like that and they support their own
production costs, let's say they had

01:47:45.670 --> 01:47:50.277
a couple of 100 bucks an Article 2,
300, maybe $400 an article. And you

01:47:50.310 --> 01:47:53.666
run some articles like that in an art
magazine is a monthly. Then you've

01:47:53.699 --> 01:47:56.817
got you end up with a substantial
budget and you have to cover it. You

01:47:56.850 --> 01:47:59.817
have to cover it by selling
advertising and that sort of thing. You sell

01:47:59.850 --> 01:48:02.517
advertising and then you're at the
pressure, you know, you're at the

01:48:02.550 --> 01:48:06.927
pressure of the galleries. I've been
in that situation once where for one

01:48:06.960 --> 01:48:10.616
lousy little line in the story that I
wrote in general about going to new

01:48:10.649 --> 01:48:15.206
york, where I described as sculptors
work in the context of his gallery,

01:48:15.239 --> 01:48:18.156
marlborough, which is very powerful
gallery, which is involved in the

01:48:18.189 --> 01:48:21.246
Rothko State. And I said the stuff in
that gallery looked like money lying

01:48:21.279 --> 01:48:25.387
in state because that's what it was.
The Marlboro, which used to put the

01:48:25.420 --> 01:48:29.317
back cover on art forum, you know
every month and had a contract and that

01:48:29.350 --> 01:48:33.256
was what, 15 $1600 a month for the
backup withdrew it. The guy said, well

01:48:33.289 --> 01:48:36.826
, since you feel that way I saw the
letter about our gallery, we choose

01:48:36.859 --> 01:48:40.836
not to, you know, so you're in that
situation if you go the other route

01:48:40.869 --> 01:48:43.496
and you don't. And I was interesting
what Dennis had said, if you don't

01:48:43.529 --> 01:48:47.567
pay your your contributors much or
something like that and you can publish

01:48:47.600 --> 01:48:51.527
without advertising and go low budget,
then you end up with another kind

01:48:51.560 --> 01:48:56.437
of tricky situation, which is that
your criticism gets to be artists part

01:48:56.470 --> 01:49:00.196
time artists dealt artists being part
time critics and delving into

01:49:00.229 --> 01:49:03.557
criticism and writing about friends or
enemies you get you get academic

01:49:03.590 --> 01:49:07.786
professors writing, you know, things
that help their publication records.

01:49:07.819 --> 01:49:10.637
There was one of the things that's
wrong with art criticism, the United

01:49:10.670 --> 01:49:15.576
States today is that and maybe
deserved critics simply don't get paid much

01:49:15.609 --> 01:49:18.916
or regularly or whatever. And it's
always relied on, we'll look at

01:49:18.949 --> 01:49:21.977
everybody wants to publish, we're
doing you a favor by putting you into

01:49:22.010 --> 01:49:25.487
print. And the other thing is is in
most parts of the visual arts now.

01:49:25.520 --> 01:49:29.156
Shut up with this is that is that
there aren't any training programs I

01:49:29.189 --> 01:49:32.576
know of only one which is that U. C.
San Diego, which is giving an M. F. A.

01:49:32.609 --> 01:49:36.777
In art criticism. But most art critics
end up being. And it's the classic

01:49:36.810 --> 01:49:40.477
thing, you know, the frustrated artist
or the part time artist or the

01:49:40.510 --> 01:49:43.807
Academy Mission or the historian who
wants to jump into something a little

01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:48.076
bit more contemporary. So this
business of paying them and not paying them

01:49:48.109 --> 01:49:51.517
and how you support your publication
is very crucial. So what I'd like to

01:49:51.550 --> 01:49:56.326
do is turn it back to the architecture
critic side of thing and asked who

01:49:56.359 --> 01:49:59.286
are the architecture critics, how did
they get to be that way and how do

01:49:59.319 --> 01:50:03.187
they make a living? I have one
question to them too, by the way, how often

01:50:03.220 --> 01:50:07.187
does an art critic or an architecture
critic have to write a christian

01:50:07.220 --> 01:50:11.046
have to write a criticism per month?
How often, how many articles are they

01:50:11.079 --> 01:50:16.126
expected to turn out in the given
amount of time vis a vis what we have.

01:50:16.159 --> 01:50:21.387
You know, what, what music and theater
people have to do? Well, certainly

01:50:21.420 --> 01:50:24.527
just taking this point about who the
architecture critics are the

01:50:24.560 --> 01:50:28.387
architectural journalists are. Well, I
suppose, up to about 19 fifties,

01:50:28.420 --> 01:50:32.156
mid fifties, most of the architectural
critics were architects. What we've

01:50:32.189 --> 01:50:35.527
noticed, certainly in the UK, and I
think it's also prevails here, is that

01:50:35.560 --> 01:50:40.397
now many of the people who are critics
or journalists on the specialist

01:50:40.430 --> 01:50:45.706
magazines are professional
journalists. That's been an incredible change.

01:50:45.739 --> 01:50:49.647
And in some cases, failed academic
historians, or highly successful

01:50:49.680 --> 01:50:53.956
academic historians like Raina
Burnham, Who actually, in terms of his

01:50:53.989 --> 01:50:57.996
involvement in England with the
architectural review brought in a new kind

01:50:58.029 --> 01:51:02.546
of critic and did a fabulous job in
the 50s, So there's been a distinct

01:51:02.579 --> 01:51:06.737
change there certainly the great
established magazines of the 19th century

01:51:06.770 --> 01:51:12.866
, all run by commercial firms who
employed architects as editors for their

01:51:12.899 --> 01:51:17.647
architectural magazines. The famous
Story of Mr raffles, Davidson, who

01:51:17.680 --> 01:51:21.126
used to knock on the doors of houses
in the northwest of England and say I

01:51:21.159 --> 01:51:24.227
am the british architect

01:51:24.260 --> 01:51:32.027
and he was always allowed in and he
would cover their building.

01:51:32.060 --> 01:51:35.777
Mhm. We've been going at it pretty hot
and heavy up here. Is there

01:51:35.810 --> 01:51:39.366
anything complaints, criticisms,
questions from the audience at this point

01:51:39.399 --> 01:51:47.399
? Yeah,

01:51:47.659 --> 01:51:55.659
Yeah,

01:51:55.760 --> 01:51:58.027
Okay,

01:51:58.060 --> 01:52:06.060
that's good.

01:52:20.750 --> 01:52:26.017
So

01:52:26.050 --> 01:52:34.050
are we?

01:52:41.350 --> 01:52:47.717
Mhm.

01:52:47.750 --> 01:52:53.116
Everybody wants to be listened to
thank God, I'm not a critic, you're

01:52:53.149 --> 01:53:01.149
saying?

01:53:01.949 --> 01:53:09.949
Yeah,

01:53:10.149 --> 01:53:18.149
Yeah. Uh huh.

01:53:23.250 --> 01:53:27.817
Well, let's ask for us, is anyone
going to stand up against it? Nobody.

01:53:27.850 --> 01:53:32.086
Mhm. Usually, most magazines there's a
there's a column and they're called

01:53:32.119 --> 01:53:36.567
Letters to the editor. Yeah, that's
where this sounds like, how about

01:53:36.600 --> 01:53:40.506
being an absolute rotter, Absolutely
terrible, duplicitous critic. I

01:53:40.539 --> 01:53:44.687
mentioned that one case of the guy in
the figure out in in paris who was

01:53:44.720 --> 01:53:48.086
out and out about it and there's a
long tradition you pay the critic and

01:53:48.119 --> 01:53:51.906
uh so there so you know, it's kind of
a reverse integrity, but it works

01:53:51.939 --> 01:53:56.107
because, you know perfectly well, he's
going to be absolutely grew up, so

01:53:56.140 --> 01:54:01.506
at least, you know, there's no
question about David

01:54:01.539 --> 01:54:09.539
louder, please.

01:54:13.739 --> 01:54:21.739
Yes.

01:54:24.640 --> 01:54:31.506
Huh.

01:54:31.539 --> 01:54:39.539
Mhm.

01:54:50.140 --> 01:54:58.140
Mhm.

01:54:59.039 --> 01:55:03.097
That's right. Well, now I have one of
the questions about integrity of

01:55:03.130 --> 01:55:05.767
criticism. You're talking about that
very thing. There's another thing too

01:55:05.800 --> 01:55:09.406
, I don't know how often an art critic
or an architecture critic is

01:55:09.439 --> 01:55:14.616
expected to write per month peter. How
often do is a particular writer

01:55:14.649 --> 01:55:18.506
have to turn anything?

01:55:18.539 --> 01:55:22.836
Yes. I mean, to stay alive, I'm
talking about his economic situation when

01:55:22.869 --> 01:55:27.546
I when I'm right for new york magazine
would right, Yeah. First I wrote

01:55:27.579 --> 01:55:35.116
about three columns a month, lovely.
Um and I think that probably paul

01:55:35.149 --> 01:55:41.376
Goldberger rights twice a week for the
new york times, I guess. Um It was

01:55:41.409 --> 01:55:46.626
hard, but I think there's one column,
one sunday column that's about the

01:55:46.659 --> 01:55:49.307
average, but the

01:55:49.340 --> 01:55:54.446
of course critics are right for
architectural publications uh work in a

01:55:54.479 --> 01:55:58.666
very different way. They may do a
couple of major stories a month plus

01:55:58.699 --> 01:56:01.607
short stories which are not signed,
which may be news stories and so on.

01:56:01.640 --> 01:56:05.857
You know, the I don't think there's
any rule of thumb, then a lot of

01:56:05.890 --> 01:56:10.727
people write for. Um Well, don't I
have a I have one question to pursue

01:56:10.760 --> 01:56:13.866
before a little further. I mean, and
then maybe you can answer me and he's

01:56:13.899 --> 01:56:17.567
going to stand right. Well, you know
what I'm basically asking is have you

01:56:17.600 --> 01:56:23.737
noticed any problem in an architect
having I mean, an architectural critic

01:56:23.770 --> 01:56:28.967
not having enough time to do his or
her homework on an art on a thing or

01:56:29.000 --> 01:56:31.786
is it sort of more or less expected
they will really have enough time to

01:56:31.819 --> 01:56:35.777
do their basic work on a thing. I mean
simply because they do have only

01:56:35.810 --> 01:56:40.307
maybe one a week of peace. I mean, do
they have the time to do what they

01:56:40.340 --> 01:56:42.857
really ought to come out with a
thoughtful article? They don't have the

01:56:42.890 --> 01:56:46.727
time pressure. In other words. I think
it's the the question should really

01:56:46.760 --> 01:56:49.817
be, are they qualified to do it
because a great many architecture critics

01:56:49.850 --> 01:56:56.597
, architecture is not a pure heart, as
everyone said, but it does have a

01:56:56.630 --> 01:57:00.696
great deal to do with some very
technical problems which may or may not be

01:57:00.729 --> 01:57:05.076
answered. And there are some Yeah.
Right. Well, basically what I'm finding

01:57:05.109 --> 01:57:09.067
out is what you've told me basically
is that uh, you're not having to deal.

01:57:09.100 --> 01:57:12.996
I don't think nearly as often as music
or play critics are with the time

01:57:13.029 --> 01:57:19.057
pressure. How about art? Is that the
same? Uhh I've known a couple people

01:57:19.090 --> 01:57:22.967
who didn't last at it very long. I
don't mean they quit being art critics

01:57:23.000 --> 01:57:26.876
, but they quit on that level who for
brief periods of time in new york

01:57:26.909 --> 01:57:30.817
when there was enough fodder for their
criticism to keep them going. We're

01:57:30.850 --> 01:57:34.326
trying to make livings as critics and
it wasn't what they couldn't do it

01:57:34.359 --> 01:57:37.796
economically, but it was something
like it took about four articles a

01:57:37.829 --> 01:57:41.227
month. I mean you can figure it out if
you can get 3 400 bucks a month. I

01:57:41.260 --> 01:57:45.456
mean an article and you get like that
to 1600 bucks and in new york, 1600

01:57:45.489 --> 01:57:50.376
bucks a month isn't going to take you
terribly terribly far. And it was a

01:57:50.409 --> 01:57:53.397
burnout situation. The two people
doing that, what they'd have something

01:57:53.430 --> 01:57:56.137
going in the studio, I mean something
going into art form, something for

01:57:56.170 --> 01:57:58.836
art in America on the line, you know
for later, something for arts

01:57:58.869 --> 01:58:04.746
magazine here and trying to do it,
couldn't, couldn't keep that, couldn't

01:58:04.779 --> 01:58:08.737
keep that kind of thing up. And so
most of them end up taking a step back

01:58:08.770 --> 01:58:13.057
from trying to get a part time
teaching position. Um mm I just want to

01:58:13.090 --> 01:58:16.387
tell you a harvest story has to do
with one of my very, very best friends

01:58:16.420 --> 01:58:20.046
who has been on a has been a critic
for one of the new york papers for

01:58:20.079 --> 01:58:23.116
about the last 34 years. He was
drafted in the situation because the head

01:58:23.149 --> 01:58:28.296
critic at this paper Uh took sick and
wasn't able to criticize that called

01:58:28.329 --> 01:58:31.937
him up because they knew he was a
general writer basically on musical

01:58:31.970 --> 01:58:35.437
comedy and on many other things are
not really a standard music critic,

01:58:35.470 --> 01:58:40.586
but a general education. We define
guy. So we picked up about three or 4

01:58:40.619 --> 01:58:45.076
jobs a month to start with as about a
2nd and 3rd string critic. These

01:58:45.109 --> 01:58:52.237
paid 45 to $50 a shot, His taxi was
paid to the, to the concert and back

01:58:52.270 --> 01:58:55.626
he was in there was picked up and so
and so forth. He had put his article

01:58:55.659 --> 01:58:59.517
in and he got $50 Later, he became a
second string critic and began to get

01:58:59.550 --> 01:59:03.546
$75 and $80 a criticism. Now we're
talking about New York that certainly

01:59:03.579 --> 01:59:07.767
doesn't make very much money. So in
the last few years he's had to become

01:59:07.800 --> 01:59:11.626
all between 1st and 2nd string critics
uh when his wife retired of a baby

01:59:11.659 --> 01:59:18.256
, he was doing six jobs a week At
maybe 80 or $90 now after a while he's

01:59:18.289 --> 01:59:20.876
quit now of course, partly because the
post has gone down, but I mean

01:59:20.909 --> 01:59:24.817
partly because I'm not just going
down, but all the papers are closed and

01:59:24.850 --> 01:59:27.446
I think you're going to find a
different lineup when they do go back again

01:59:27.479 --> 01:59:32.097
because the very fact that six times a
week after a while you're turning

01:59:32.130 --> 01:59:35.456
the plaster, nobody can listen really
that intelligently, Here's a man who

01:59:35.489 --> 01:59:38.946
did a lot of background work on
everything he wrote. He finally simply

01:59:38.979 --> 01:59:42.307
could not do it. I think that this
must really have a great to do with the

01:59:42.340 --> 01:59:48.166
whole business of how good criticism
and how valid criticism is. May I may

01:59:48.199 --> 01:59:52.876
I add to that eric Salzman when he was
with the new york Times, very

01:59:52.909 --> 01:59:57.546
respected, respected critic. I thought
you were going to tell a horror

01:59:57.579 --> 02:00:00.977
story, but that isn't a horrible story
at all. Eric Salzman wrote about 20

02:00:01.010 --> 02:00:05.416
reviews a week. You have to go three
concerts today. That's how he made

02:00:05.449 --> 02:00:12.296
his salary. No extra pay. That's all
that's with the deadline. Usually

02:00:12.329 --> 02:00:15.767
either 15 minutes after or 10 minutes
before the end of the concert,

02:00:15.800 --> 02:00:18.916
depending on how long the last piece
was actually actually say bobby the

02:00:18.949 --> 02:00:21.376
same problem and he was going to three
conscious today too. So there will

02:00:21.409 --> 02:00:24.446
be six nights, three afternoons and so
would be about the same as the

02:00:24.479 --> 02:00:31.597
worst. Just one might mention that Mac
and a various intrigues and

02:00:31.630 --> 02:00:35.387
politics, such as being mentioned by
you at the other end of the table,

02:00:35.420 --> 02:00:40.076
really don't let her in when you're
operating. However, at this pace, you

02:00:40.109 --> 02:00:44.227
get very good at at hearing a certain
thing that you're after. You don't

02:00:44.260 --> 02:00:48.477
worry about who it is, you just just
do your job as best you can. However

02:00:48.510 --> 02:00:54.706
, it doesn't give enough time to look
into what's happening uh in the case

02:00:54.739 --> 02:00:57.996
of new music, which is what Bill and I
are particularly interested in. And

02:00:58.029 --> 02:01:01.746
so it kind of lost out. So when we do
find people, as I mentioned, the

02:01:01.779 --> 02:01:04.967
very beginning who are willing to take
the time to look into it while it's

02:01:05.000 --> 02:01:08.076
wonderful. And I do think there are
more and more of these and there are

02:01:08.109 --> 02:01:12.456
more and more trained critics and
music around the country situation isn't

02:01:12.489 --> 02:01:16.567
great, but the terrible stories you're
telling. I I don't know anything

02:01:16.600 --> 02:01:21.927
about music, maybe they exist. Let me
say one thing just very short to the

02:01:21.960 --> 02:01:24.366
gentleman out there who's who's the
sculptor and you're talking about

02:01:24.399 --> 02:01:27.177
integrity and I'll just give you this
and you can think about it. And

02:01:27.210 --> 02:01:30.956
probably another question will come
back in my personal experience with

02:01:30.989 --> 02:01:36.977
criticism and with other art critics.
The lack of integrity has always, I

02:01:37.010 --> 02:01:39.677
can't think of an exception at the
moment. Always been on the favorable

02:01:39.710 --> 02:01:43.777
side. In other words, it's people that
the integrity thing has always been

02:01:43.810 --> 02:01:47.687
people writing pumps about artists
that they wanted to get in good with or

02:01:47.720 --> 02:01:51.796
maybe hope that they say, see this,
this person wrote an article on jules

02:01:51.829 --> 02:01:54.607
Nowitzki, you know, and then you get
some of the grandeur of jewels,

02:01:54.640 --> 02:01:58.607
litsky rubs off or maybe the guy like
enough to trade you a piece or

02:01:58.640 --> 02:02:01.946
something someday. It's always lack of
integrity has always been on that

02:02:01.979 --> 02:02:06.036
side rather than dumping on somebody
for political reasons in my

02:02:06.069 --> 02:02:08.967
experience.

02:02:09.000 --> 02:02:13.267
See where?

02:02:13.300 --> 02:02:18.656
No, it's not. But I said it's always
been No, it's not. I said the lack of

02:02:18.689 --> 02:02:22.597
integrity has always been on that on
that side undeserved puffs for in

02:02:22.630 --> 02:02:25.786
other words the corruption went
towards saying something nice because they

02:02:25.819 --> 02:02:30.567
got something for it rather than
saying something nasty.

02:02:30.600 --> 02:02:33.887
No, no, nobody said that. I have one
question which really has something

02:02:33.920 --> 02:02:37.086
to do with it all. One of things I did
say is that when we had the

02:02:37.119 --> 02:02:40.777
newspaper strike in new york, it was
noticeable that all the arts, for

02:02:40.810 --> 02:02:44.967
example, that were the most immediate
sort of sort of short term ones such

02:02:45.000 --> 02:02:48.376
as theater. And, and there was there's
a concerts over, you know, that's

02:02:48.409 --> 02:02:52.166
something uh there was practically no
appreciable difference in the size

02:02:52.199 --> 02:02:55.727
of crowds or any other kinds of things
or even in sort of a general

02:02:55.760 --> 02:03:00.166
aggravation of what was happening
around them is now, let's imagine that

02:03:00.199 --> 02:03:05.397
all of a sudden there were no
criticism in art or in architecture. What do

02:03:05.430 --> 02:03:07.946
you think would be the difference is
those of you on the other side of the

02:03:07.979 --> 02:03:11.467
table. What happened there were all of
a sudden you're magazines were over.

02:03:11.500 --> 02:03:14.927
Look, I may, I may I just make a
comment because I think you're totally

02:03:14.960 --> 02:03:21.147
wrong about the new york scene. Last
two months. Uh, the all performing

02:03:21.180 --> 02:03:24.826
arts in new york were regularly
reviewed by the new yorker new york

02:03:24.859 --> 02:03:29.946
magazine, The Village Voice, Daily
Time by Newsweek by any number of

02:03:29.979 --> 02:03:33.307
suburban papers which we've taken a
terrific amount more of power they

02:03:33.340 --> 02:03:37.666
once had because those little cities,
not necessarily, I think that uh,

02:03:37.699 --> 02:03:41.876
there were three, three papers that go
out of business and six magazines

02:03:41.909 --> 02:03:45.656
that continued to function as And, and
cover the New York scene completely

02:03:45.689 --> 02:03:50.527
, Jack can't cover 10 openings. The
only covered what was there? And it's

02:03:50.560 --> 02:03:53.006
a very few kind of things and there's
an automatic kind of selection of

02:03:53.039 --> 02:03:56.137
which gets reviewed. That's, that's
the difference between a weekly and

02:03:56.170 --> 02:03:58.967
daily. I'm saying that the daily
criticisms had a lot to do with an awful

02:03:59.000 --> 02:04:03.126
lot of people's uh small careers. I
mean, the main thing about, you know,

02:04:03.159 --> 02:04:05.767
somebody who's in Newsweek already, I
mean when you'll be opened,

02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:08.647
everybody knew about you begin to be
opening. For example, when somebody

02:04:08.680 --> 02:04:11.446
does get into weekly, these are people
are already established artists,

02:04:11.479 --> 02:04:15.496
the daily people, the Daily, you know,
the pianist who gets his debut

02:04:15.529 --> 02:04:18.416
finally in town hall, he's paid all
his money to get the darn thing going

02:04:18.449 --> 02:04:21.737
by norman Seaman, just put his money
and all the rest is a very sad story.

02:04:21.770 --> 02:04:24.336
The poor guy's sitting there putting
his whole back on the darn thing. No

02:04:24.369 --> 02:04:27.036
review. That's the that's the people
I'm talking about. Of course, it's

02:04:27.069 --> 02:04:29.517
quite true that one review would make
no difference. If he'd known better

02:04:29.550 --> 02:04:32.427
, he would have saved his money, but
they don't know that, but never mind

02:04:32.460 --> 02:04:35.166
about that. What I'm talking about is
the daily reviews for the small guys

02:04:35.199 --> 02:04:38.137
, the burgeoning people, the people
are just starting their they are

02:04:38.170 --> 02:04:42.506
certainly having a different time. How
was that being affected? I want to

02:04:42.539 --> 02:04:45.817
say one thing about regionalism, which
came up to is that I was, this is a

02:04:45.850 --> 02:04:48.727
long time ago. I think the policy is
sort of still in effect, if not

02:04:48.760 --> 02:04:53.817
specific, I was living in texas at the
time and writing for art forum and

02:04:53.850 --> 02:04:56.557
somebody had an interesting show and I
wanted to write about, I thought

02:04:56.590 --> 02:05:00.437
about. So I called up the editor and I
was right, you know, I said how

02:05:00.470 --> 02:05:06.357
about a piece on this? And he said,
and I think this is probably echoed

02:05:06.390 --> 02:05:11.656
throughout different forms of
criticism. He said, well will run an article

02:05:11.689 --> 02:05:16.336
on a known artist in an unknown place
and we will run an article on an

02:05:16.369 --> 02:05:19.767
unknown artist in a known place,
meaning somebody who's new and who comes

02:05:19.800 --> 02:05:23.767
to new york. But we don't really want
to run an article on an unknown

02:05:23.800 --> 02:05:29.036
artist in an unknown place. And I
think that this is probably and this was

02:05:29.069 --> 02:05:32.496
a pure kind of business decision about
circulation and advertising what

02:05:32.529 --> 02:05:34.956
would be of interest to the readers
and blah blah blah. But I mean, it's a

02:05:34.989 --> 02:05:38.467
problem you run up against so an
unknown artist having a show in san

02:05:38.500 --> 02:05:42.006
Antonio texas is didn't stand much of
a chance of getting international

02:05:42.039 --> 02:05:48.137
magazine also. I think this uh falls
back on, I think the responsibility

02:05:48.170 --> 02:05:55.156
of the art periodical periodical, I
think it isn't so much to be uh

02:05:55.189 --> 02:05:58.756
playing up the already established
people. I think when the functions of

02:05:58.789 --> 02:06:03.586
the magazine just like the critic is
that of education and and I think I

02:06:03.619 --> 02:06:08.156
especially enjoy and I think of art
forum or or whatever the publication

02:06:08.189 --> 02:06:12.777
might be saying, uh, somebody that I
never realized was working before.

02:06:12.810 --> 02:06:17.376
See, here's something new, you know,
and instead of the the same same

02:06:17.409 --> 02:06:22.147
routine that you're so used to seeing.
And I think this is one of the

02:06:22.180 --> 02:06:27.036
biggest shortcomings that the
periodical has. Yeah, I think all magazines

02:06:27.069 --> 02:06:31.746
that deal with us, we've got to have
some sort of revelatory factor.

02:06:31.779 --> 02:06:35.586
How do we learn about what we're
competing against or how do we learn

02:06:35.619 --> 02:06:39.647
about what's going on? Faith? This
conversation is getting a bit beyond me.

02:06:39.680 --> 02:06:44.196
It seems to be concerned with job
opportunities and mechanisms of how you

02:06:44.229 --> 02:06:47.977
produce articles in certain magazines.
I thought, well, that's interesting

02:06:48.010 --> 02:06:51.477
that you should point this out because
my experience is a composer and

02:06:51.510 --> 02:06:55.946
having had enough experience, at least
with performances of my work in

02:06:55.979 --> 02:06:59.717
England at least. Uh, and also knowing
the fair number of english

02:06:59.750 --> 02:07:02.687
composers. I don't know what it's like
with english, our candidates are

02:07:02.720 --> 02:07:05.916
just like that. But there's a
different kind of thing. You have a much

02:07:05.949 --> 02:07:10.847
stronger situation. These are these
earning capacity. I mean, I know

02:07:10.880 --> 02:07:14.666
composers who make no bones about
writing movie music and there's no

02:07:14.699 --> 02:07:17.357
stigma about it. You do that sort of
thing in the States, you're

02:07:17.390 --> 02:07:20.597
automatically put down about it for
years. Uh, there are lots of people

02:07:20.630 --> 02:07:24.437
who've done this sort of thing. There
are means of making money as a, as

02:07:24.470 --> 02:07:28.296
an artist in England, which don't
simply exist here. So you're thrown upon

02:07:28.329 --> 02:07:31.267
other things to make that sort of
thing. That changes your whole

02:07:31.300 --> 02:07:34.496
particular perspective. You have more
help in certain areas that we simply

02:07:34.529 --> 02:07:38.006
don't have. Yeah, but what sort of
levels of criticism we talking about in

02:07:38.039 --> 02:07:42.446
these? Well, basically, in in America
the point of that is that America

02:07:42.479 --> 02:07:45.217
criticism basically, to do with buying
and selling whatever it has to do

02:07:45.250 --> 02:07:47.496
with it. Whereas criticism in England
can afford to be a good deal more

02:07:47.529 --> 02:07:51.687
disinterested. No, you don't you don't
buy a performance after after it's

02:07:51.720 --> 02:07:54.576
over. Surely. I mean, what you've been
talking about earlier was very much

02:07:54.609 --> 02:07:59.296
concerned with what critics thought of
your work or Well, that's well,

02:07:59.329 --> 02:08:02.817
what that had to do with whether
you're going to be able to make a living

02:08:02.850 --> 02:08:05.336
vis a vis your heart

02:08:05.369 --> 02:08:09.727
very simply talking about the bottom
line, that's it.

02:08:09.760 --> 02:08:13.586
Any more from the audience out there.
Any more questions or comments. I'd

02:08:13.619 --> 02:08:17.237
like to have something really?

02:08:17.270 --> 02:08:20.536
No, I think what you were talking
about, you were complaining about those

02:08:20.569 --> 02:08:23.097
, there's probably a whole area of
criticism that we really haven't

02:08:23.130 --> 02:08:26.137
addressed. And it's probably with a
lot of critics themselves think about

02:08:26.170 --> 02:08:30.946
which is the critic as interpreter and
saying this body of works and try

02:08:30.979 --> 02:08:34.687
this kind of idea. And I think this
kind of idea means this and putting it

02:08:34.720 --> 02:08:38.756
in a philosophical perspective and
using the art almost as grist for the

02:08:38.789 --> 02:08:43.307
mill to write a creative piece.
Almost. Somebody told me that once I said

02:08:43.340 --> 02:08:47.437
something, I was really afraid that
I'd been unfair to the artist. And

02:08:47.470 --> 02:08:50.717
editor said, your only job is to write
an interesting, provocative piece

02:08:50.750 --> 02:08:55.857
of writing. And and and the art should
be to you as the writer. No more

02:08:55.890 --> 02:08:59.397
sort of inviolable as the tube of
paint was to the painter. It's a kind of

02:08:59.430 --> 02:09:04.376
a heavy thought, but it's got some
some merit to it. Mhm. Um I think

02:09:04.409 --> 02:09:07.217
that's true and I think that makes it
always more important with the

02:09:07.250 --> 02:09:11.137
reasons why a point of view,

02:09:11.170 --> 02:09:14.569
but this Okay.