Welcome to the Artist Anne Festival
Smart
this morning.
Mhm. We will be talking about native american healing.
Dr Hammerschlag will be making a few announcements concerning taping and
pictures.
So please refrain until he's explained to you what the situation will be.
There are some seats scattered around through the audience. If those of
you who are sitting around the edges want to come in,
can we get are you ready? All right. I will introduce to you dr Carl
Hammerschlag, He is the director of psychiatry at phoenix India in the
hospital medical center and a mental health consultant for the phoenix
area indian Health Service. He will introduce the other participants and
run the program for you this morning. Um The sound in this room might be a
little problem. If you will all please be quiet. I think then all of us
will be able to hear.
Thank you.
All right.
Excuse the delay. There's a certain arrangements have to be made about the
taping and filming of this. So that's what's going on right now,
forgive us. And before you take pictures please, uh before you take
pictures please. Uh Part of the controversy this morning has to do with
filming and taping. Can you hear me reasonably well? What it is that
happens here between
Mr dalton Mr Tal have to and I and you takes place at a single moment in
time. Something between us That is more than simply a lecture. Uh I'll
share with you some feelings of soul and spirit about what we do and what
they do and what they're about. Uh what happens after this with regard to
tape, recordings and pictures, we have no control over to record this is
to record an event that they wish to stand by itself and since they have
no control over what happens afterwards or to whom it will be shown or
what will be said and whether it will be seen in or out of context and the
nature of the understanding of those who will view it has always been an
issue. Our preference would be that other than the orchestra, the
foundations visual record that they will make on videotape, that you not
record this. And if you would like to take pictures afterwards that you
asked for permission to do so, uh, I hope I've said that clearly I feel
peculiarly about that because it's important two, you simply understand
where we come from. We're going to begin and I will introduce to you very
soon that the people who are sitting at my side, none of this is prepared.
We will all speak from the heart and as a result we may sacrifice what
will be clarity, at least for spontaneity. This morning, I will serve
simply to introduce the panelists for traditional native american healers
, their arm, innocent men. And they will tell you a little bit about what
they do and who they are and how they do it. And I wish only to share with
you in my introductory remarks some framework so that you will understand
there are many people who can heal, I trust that comes as no great
surprise to you. The comments that we will make may be controversial, but
then this meeting is probably controversial and you're welcome to disagree
with the kinds of things you here and we're welcome to talk about them.
Many people can heal one does not need paper credentials on the wall too,
prove that you can be affected. It is my strong personal belief that
people get well on the basis of whether or not they believe in the system
by which you practice and because of the personal qualities of the
individual who's doing the treatment and those are crucial variables in
healing. We live in contemporary Western society, in a medical situation
which people come to doctors where they are essentially placed in their
hands. In a situation that is essentially unequal it's an inequality that
is perpetuated by doctors as well as patients. It's important, I think, to
understand that people are responsible for their own healing to place or
abandon yourself into the hands of others to do it to you Takes one out of
the healing process. I think the doctors are trained to do so that we keep
a therapeutic distance from patients, that it's important not to become
too involved and it elevates our mystique the language that we speak, the
walking two bedsides, the standing three ft above a lying patient all
emphasize the disparity between the healer and the patient. It emphasizes
in some way, one's ability and the others neediness and having to come. It
places the hand by and large the healing hand in the hands only of the
position who may not be unwilling to do so. The fact is that our training
is well geared to coming and seeing patients and leaving and seeing quite
a few,
that it's important not to become too intimately involved because people
come and go. It's important to speak a very special language that other
people cannot interpret. So as to elevate our mystique and it's important
to be able to define the limits of the relationship on self.
People must be involved in their home healing just like I believe that
Children must be involved in their own learning. That all learning takes
place through a commitment to the process that the Children themselves
must be the principal agents in their own learning and that without it it
doesn't take place. And the same is true for healing, that the healer and
the patient have a contract together to get well in traditional medicine,
there's always such a contract one Because the healer, himself or herself
feels that whatever power he or she has comes from a spiritual source,
that the nature of one's work is done in combination with, with a
spiritual guidance that the gift of healing comes more than just from
oneself, but from somebody else. An issue that I think we lose in
contemporary Western medicine, where there is a complete infatuation with
one's own inviolability, in a sense that we do it alone, a native healer
will always speak to patients and spent quite a bit of time in
contemporary Western medicine. We have very little time. The fact is that
when we are stimulated by what by and large is a profit motive, one has to
divide 1's time on the basis of its potential or remuneration. Is it
worthwhile? That makes it very difficult perhaps to deliver, in my opinion
, optimum health care.
I think that
we're going to see a change in net people are going to take responsibility
for being involved in a very intimate way with their own healing and that
what takes place between they and their doctors, they will have to be an
equal party too.
I was going to say some things about,
I was gonna say a lot of things, we're going to have a chance to kind of
talk to each other and ask questions back and forth. I wanted to provide
you some kind of a framework by which I see healing taking place. And I've
tried to say clearly that people must be involved in their own healing.
People get well on the basis of what they believe and on the personal
qualities and attributes of their doctors, their therapists and those are
the crucial variables um, healing. So if you believe, and if you like the
person that you're doing it with, the likelihood is that you will get well
, Western medicine is not the only medicine is practiced. Sometimes the
practice of medicine takes one away from the healing process, especially
when the motives for one's participation become more involved with an
equitable use of one's time and the pursuit of profit. I believe that some
of the things that you will hear today will come as a surprise to you,
some may not what is shared with you will come from the heart of the
individuals who will share it with you. And it is a gift. It's a gift from
you, from them to you. At my left is
Mr Bill Dalton who is uhh a traditional healer originally from my own copy
on the Hopi reservation who now lives in White River Arizona. He's
extremely highly regarded. He is known in this country and
and overseas as far west as Hawaii. He gets invited to go places. He is a
traditional healer And he's 81 years old.
And to his left Mr Herbert L. A. Have to uh from the movie on the second
base on the Hopi reservation, a traditional healer uh and a specialist in
his own right. And they will share with you kind of where they come from
and what they do and how they do it, their use of herbs, their treatment
of patients.
And then we will open the floor to some discussion and I would like to
have a chance to kind of come back to you. I have a feeling that without
notes and
and with any forethought ideas that it's come out perhaps a bit rambled
and perhaps we can get back to that again. My name is Carl Hammerschlag
and I am trained in traditional Western medicine, having gone to medical
school in new york at the State University of new york and postdoctoral
training at Yale University in New Haven. I work with american indian
tribes for which I have some special responsibility as mental health
consultant in the states of Arizona and about a Utah and California with
that introduction. We will begin
ladies and gentle.
Mhm. I'm happy to be here. Give you a living registration on up.
We're gathered here to protect.
I'm going to try and explain on my own self my experience in healing
people.
But first I must take it is a gift.
I have not learned to swim and or had gone to any school. There are its
methods of peace
I was born as I can. And that's not what growing up, my grandfather, I had
mild used to tell me that I have one of the most skill that no other man
who will ever have. I can't believe it.
But
but I also we're told that I am not too start out during this healing
until I was past middle age making me a warning that there was
would be kind of dangerous somewhere in her life. If I started to get at
this time, okay, the temptation would be so great that somewhere I would
lose my power so under ditch I have always remembered
and I was given article to go to go ahead and worship. Yeah, some of these
spiritual god that are still existed in this universe. Some of you people
don't believe in. No, but it's still acquisition
as well as the great creator up above. Sure, there must be something
behind it years ago before. And if the harness all the white men has
received before any had settled this country, the method of healing was
great baking pan greatly upon the herbs that was given or grown on dessert
and that's been carried on by some medicine men. But those things I began
to disappear. Why
poor wife, the white doctors began to step on and in a way of healing and
so forth, they just about to stump us down. But now lately they began to
come and she and began to realize there is something that is much beyond
their knowledge. Yes, I would say some of you young students here you are
trying to work yourself and become a doctors or nurses and so forth.
Urology is coming from the book. My knowledge is all come from natural
gift.
At the present time I am handling a great deal of all kinds of sickness
and ailments.
They come to me and when they do come to me. The first thing, the method I
used. I ask questions as how the ailment is working and where and all this
and that by the time when he gets through explaining his elements and so
forth, something has already told me and put into my head. This is what's
wrong with the pushing.
When you get through with him, this is the herb to give the patient Joey
goes on like that. And today it is hard for me to try to take care of all
the people that's coming to me. Yeah. All nationalities, White indian
jeopardy,
spanish people as well as your current people. I couldn't turn it my way.
It's a gift. And I'm to carry on and so forth.
Now your knowledge come from the book. It wouldn't do to tell. It won't do
for me to go ahead and tell you just how I do things with my hat.
I have no X ray, no nothing of that sort. Yes, I take bug both hands. I
have that power.
I'm looking over you started shooting. So you're people at the present
time. I've seen some bad feelings of among your people. If I concentrate
on the person long enough, I can tell you just what's wrong with you. But
let's leave. We don't. Mhm. These things. That is a gift.
And at the present time I'm doing the bastard camp.
Um doctor here so far, he's the only doctor has Mayor has gotten very
interested in us too. Yeah. And we feel that we owe him something and we
like to help him as much as we can. We have a great respectful. But as I
say, I cannot tell you what herb we use. Why? It's because I have made a
promise to the mother earth that I will go and use the earth that was put
on this universe by the great old creative foot of all mankind. I promise
that I will not give it away or one way together. Although I have been
asked why don't you bring this matter before the medical society let them
know that there is such a nerve it up for cancer which is a great enemy at
the present time to human beings. I said that's a good question. Yeah.
I'll be fool enough to take you or someone else up in the mountains in the
desert and tell them there is the whole also there's another those two
combined and so it's the best for cancer and so forth.
They'll go out and gather and pull up and everything
and leave us nothing to go on with their work. That's one reason we can
expose nothing.
But we will take care of as much element as we can and at the present time
a doctor or have recognized began to recognize the matter and give us
giving us a chance. So my partner here, he's a bomb technician.
And that depression time. It's bigger. Uh huh. An indian doctor to be
called to the hospital and help out cheap. We can save some lives.
As I say it's all types of ailments. I'm honorable man. Seems like it
seems to be the worst I even have both of us have. This is unbelievable.
When a woman wanted a child, couldn't get a child, they come to us. My
first work would be safe. Why don't you get your husband and yourself go
before the doctor and had thoroughly examination.
Let them examine you see which one of you is not further. Once when they
go through the procedure
then they come back to us. Maybe they said well the ladies network
there is something wrong. They either being injured somewhere along their
line and as causes that or they could be born. But there's a method. As I
said, this is the only instrument I got. How could I have a fixed uh lady
like that So that they can have a child. Your dad did. Sometimes there's
just a slight twist in their room. Sometimes something else like that. Mhm.
But without a touch of my hand and how to do that and give him a certain
earth. Bless their soul. They'll have a child.
No wisdom. No, nothing now at the present time I'm snowed in by the women.
Yeah women come to me. You know when they are ready to have a child or
something like that instead of going to the hospital and have their uhh
examination see how far they do and all that. They come to me. Sometimes
the baby is laying on And all they have to do is take only about five or
10 minutes returning.
And when the time comes they don't have any trouble.
Just last week, a woman come to me. She was 12. She started a slight label
the night before. But there was something wrong that nothing else happened.
They come to me in the morning. We almost have a child born right in my
house. So dear it is.
But these things how I do it and this and that. I couldn't reveal that to
you people. It's a cape. I promised my great spiritual fathers in this
universe that I will not expose myself. I could not handed down among my
Children
because it again, I could teach him a few herbs and something like that
for emergency you. Yeah, that's about as far as I can go. So this is the
thing. Two years ago, three years ago I made a trip to Hawaii.
I thought I went on a vacation is a rational but they soon find out that I
was a healer. The people of how are you flocked to me Like I don't know
what
I came back home a year after that. The people of Hawaii to call me back
to Honolulu.
They call me a healer. Hopi indian a healer. A man of love.
There must be something behind my healing otherwise. The people of highway
would waste their diamond nickels to pay my transportation won't with joe
dale gave today we are here.
We can try and work. Oh beloved doctor here will say our brother here.
They don't look too much but never tell that.
But that way I think we can go on and serve all mankind. And here's
another thing that I want to tell the last time when I was over in Hawaii
the medicine man, they call all the herb men of Hawaii on different
islands. There were seven of them. They wanted to initiate me into or give
me some sort of power. It's all they took one week and they took me over
to the big island. Yeah, It took only 3/4 an hour on the plane to land in.
And big island there they put me through a underground temple they call,
oh and how are you don't call them the medicine man. They call him the
corona. Some of you people probably have read a book about the corona and
the great work that they are doing. They have a great power. I become one
of them. I was initiated in the temple and they picked me up in the
mountains there in a cape into a water. They didn't me four times. And
when all that procedure worked on the head Priest Samuel luna, his name. I
had three. He put his arm on my shoulders and his head. Brother shallow.
How did he do my indian name. Mhm. But that is a mystery to me yet. Today.
How did he know my indian name? But that's what he called me. He said
Brother salo. Now you have the power. How are you? We have given you the
power with no connection with into the evil. We want you to take this
power back to the mainland and using on all mankind.
We hope that you will help to save few lives on the mainland. They call
this the mainland because today hawaii said steak. So dear I have that
power with me. I with the others. The power that I have received here in
this country. Mhm. How are you? It's a great place but Arizona top them
off. I like Arizona.
So we here we are. We're trying to work with the doctor. We have a great
love for him and may God bless us and help us to continue with our work.
Thank you.
Mhm. Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen,
we've been invited to this conference.
I don't know. We're glad to be here. We have known this doctor Dr
Hammerschlag. Some people may know him and we have great respect for him.
Uh
call him as her brother. Mhm.
Of course what he golden says. You know it's all true.
I Mhm. Never thought I was going to do this kind of work on the people.
And my main job is on the broken bones, pistol gated bones, straight
muscles and other things. I've been working on a people a long time. And
through my experience I found some of the things that uh not called
elements inside the body. Uh
Yeah, good. Yeah, so
I work on these people in all. Of course Bill Dalton is sort of a
psychiatrist, you know, he knows what people might have in their heads or
other things, you know.
But it's it's pretty hard working on the people I know and perhaps some of
the doctors know how hard it is to be working on the people when I start
working with people.
And I just wondered how I got this job. I've been thinking all the time
that people began to know that I can do some work on a broken bones and
other things and they started coming to me, you know. But I can tell you
this, yeah one of a bone specialist used to be at my home, he is a
descendant of my my mother
and he is to be a medicine man who uses crystal. So I've been thinking you
know how I got this job, you know, and I thought it might be him, you know
that I inherit from him. But with this kind of work they're working on
their bones,
it's really hard to heal the people. But as I say it's a give from someone
who is higher than I am and he gives me all his power to feel. I don't
have any kind of X ray to use or any kind of the operators, you know, to
open up the surgery work on the people. But I've always done my best to
help the people because I thought I was given this job by someone who may
choose me to do this kind of work. And I know I can say I saved a lot of
people and I'm glad of it. I've been called a different hospitals
because some of the accident happens up in home, you know, and they send
them to different hospitals and where they don't seem to recover. The
parents would take me to the hospital. I've been even to some private
hospitals around
and technology a lot of times it's pretty hard for me to go on account of
the lack of money. I had to go sometimes on my own and sometimes the
parents would pay my transportation back and forth. It's really hard on
those things on me. But up till now we had some conference done in feeling
phone was it
six months ago
and I've been down to the hospital several times saying he knows uh
at that conference I told some of these doctor of course I had a doctor,
there might be some doctors here too.
It's pretty hard on me and I had to travel back and forth sometimes. But
as I work, I know we all have faith, all the people have faith but I
learned some time ago, you know that there's a lot of these white people
that don't have feet.
I don't know why maybe they just roll around and then grow up.
But well I say someone is taking care of what someone may just go all that.
Well I don't use to have any kind of curved to work on these broken bones.
But I've been thinking thinking only of some of the things you know that
I have tried on on some of the herbs and the using on those broken bones
and I succeed. So I know what I used to people now you know to help build
up the broken bones again
lot of times I get so discouraged sometimes you know because accidents are
very very bad things and the sad thing is, you know, sometimes you know a
patient don't seem like it's going to come back, you know, but I say quite
a number of the people.
And another thing is I want to say to some of you, maybe some of your
doctors and nurses here let us do our job the way we should do help the
patient.
This is what I have in mind all the time because right now I see up around
on a reservation in our reservation hospitals a lot of times the same
people going to hospital maybe for broken bones and other things, you know
, they come to me because they couldn't use their legs or their arms when
I checked them. It wasn't said
well I know some of the doctors I know the doctors are drawing a lot of
money but we don't we don't we don't draw money like that. So I told him
down, I ain't no let us work. Let us do what we know and use them to
people in order to get them well yeah, so
I home all you know some of you might be doctors here, heard me what I
said and all. Let us do our best and on hell those people and I would say
it is too, it's not me that's healing the people. Someone that has given
me this job is the one that does the healing. I considered myself only as
a servant if I don't have that uh if I don't have the power that someone
has given me, I won't feel anything, I won't feel the broken bones or I
won't feel anything, you know that it's wrong. Insight.
I still have two equation working on one uh you know, they can't speak,
you know. But one of them was talking now it's really hard. But I'm glad
that I think dr Hammerschlag has taken interest in us, you know, and he
started working with us and he helped me out a lot. I hope I can help him
out someday too. Some of these herbs that I know some of you have in your
mind not to question out us about these herbs you know but we don't know
everything. It's someone that has given us this job is the one that put
that into our heads and we get it into a heart in order to use. Some of
the herbs have leaves can help people with. Uh
There is some of the things you know that yeah especially us, you know if
you don't want it because we don't go to school for this. But it's someone
that has given us this job. That's the only one that can help us on these
things. You know I know there's some other people you know other race of
people they have studied these herbs but not me. Oh no I know he's just
like myself too you know he doesn't know much about her. But whatever they
give that he asked the as you know. Yeah. Someone when a vision comes to
him he feels wrong. Well I guess this is what he needs. You get it in his
head right away and then they started looking for somewhere if you know
what that would do a patient some good and I know that's the way he works.
It's a mm hmm. Some people say when I fix a broken bone say boy it's a
miracle I had him in the hospital. I didn't didn't do anything for him.
Well I said don't take me as God because I am not. I'm just a servant.
Yeah but I'm glad that we're here and try to tell you some of the things
and yes and after our time is up, you know we might take the rest a little
bit or maybe there's another one is coming up soon after the meeting. We
can after more right away.
You must have some sense. This is a different kind of subject material. It
doesn't lend itself wealth to kind of a lecture format. Are there any
questions on the basis of what you've heard so that we can kind of get
down to it?
Okay. Can you speak? Yeah. One. Yeah. Problem.
Yeah. Mhm mm. Yeah.
Mhm.
Mhm. Okay. There are two questions. One is what are the referral sources
from the hospital to the medicine men? And the Converse I would guess is
part of that question. The other is how do you train people in terms of
herbs? There's a question to Bill Dalton, who is novelist? I like. How do
you teach people? Do you take students out? Uh
That's a good question. How I come to you sir. I mean what form and all
that? Sometimes a fortune would come to me And when I asked him question
about different ailments and so forth? And some purchase some of them
would say I've been bouncing around from doctor to doctor and they told me
that there is nothing wrong with me. There must be something wrong.
Otherwise I wouldn't have the feeling and all that of my body. And I was
studying. I started them very crowded. I know exactly what's wrong with
the person. So that's where I agree with the doctor. And I tell them
physically you are normal physically. You are physically you are normal.
But mentally you are ill. Too much thinking is how quick they can get rich.
And one thing after another like that knuckler to help would come down
when a person comes to me with a bad ailment. I know if it's a stomach
trouble or something causing gas and so forth like that. I know just what
herb to give and they are instructed to and what they use it to the way I
asked them to. They can't help but get well, okay
perhaps maybe I could question. Probably come up and say could I teach
somebody to do it? I'm trying to teach him my daughter. She's taking a
nurse training down to song leaves in two songs. And since she's a woman
going to work on monday, I'm trying to give you some of that.
But I've asked her distinct. Please do not reveal this to anyone. So what
does she do it? I hope she'll lose now another.
Well let's just get the first point. Yes. I do refer people back to
traditional healers and traditional healers are far more likely to refer
people to Western doctors. The senses that we We tend not to view each
other equally. Most Western trained physicians become reasonably kind of
ethnocentric our way is the best way. It's the kind of thing that's
predicated on 30 years of learning when kind of the universe revolves
around us. It's very difficult to kind of work in both ways. But yes, we
refer people back and forth and there is a charge. Medicine men do charge
uh medicine will also refer people to each other and they're different
specialties. Uh Sorry to have to our specialty is muscles, bones and
joints. He will refer people bill for uh for herbs. But it's not the kind
of thing that can be taught as I understand it. What herbs even to be used
May come from Dreams. one sees it. I have asked to go and collect the
herbs. Uh and I've never done so I've been asked not to do so. I've seen
the herbs once they're picked but I have not gotten to the place.
Okay.
Mhm, mm hmm. Yeah.
Fine
audience?
Yeah. What major? Well the body without men in society. Mhm. Conversation.
Real personal example. Now you talk to them I'm going to do.
Mhm. I'm sorry
your mother. Yeah.
Did everybody hear the question while the bagpipes are playing? Mhm. Okay.
The question is, what are the diagnostic tools are there other than
conversation that acupuncturist for example have points on the body that
they test pulses to make some diagnostic assessment. And the question was
how does a traditional healer make a diagnosis other than talking.
Uh huh. Okay.
Oh let me limit. Oh. Oh your question is how did how do I know? Order
pushing is sick and what part of their body and so forth.
Mm. Well the first thing I got to do is to find out while the paint on the
ailments and so forth that's forming and and the suffering that brings to
the person. I don't study. And all right one something comes to my mind
that I know just what he did. Eight again. So therefore I would go ahead
and and get a hold of world and then I would place my hand on your pain is
here under Children's and so forth. And I will tell them why. I said the
reason why you are getting dissed in here. I said you will get well if you
change your diaper at the present time we want to know why there's so much
diabetes and other things like that. It's what we eat books, what we are
eating at the present time and what you are drinking and putting it down
to your stomach.
If you could correct all that you won't have shocking diabetes is are
maintained. You could control record hotel.
Yes those are oh if you take this earth for six months alone it'll cure.
He don't relieve you of it. But it will cure. So that is the thing. It's
our hands and stuff to tell us what it is and so forth like that. You
won't tell them about that might,
you know, you've been asking
how we found some ailments in the body. Is that working?
So I don't know he is.
How will you find out element in the body? Did you hear, did you hear that
the old guys or not?
Mm hmm.
Well the way I found these things out, you know
if some people, because I've been working with people a long time and now
I want something inside sometimes. And I asked him just like he's doing
too how he feels when he gets sick. Mhm. Then I would feel wrong. Feel the
body and through my hands. I can find some help.
Then all of a sudden sometimes, you know, the herb might come into my
brain. Well this is therapy needs
so I if I had there but give it to them, but if not I have to look at and
promise him to come by a certain day. So I can give it. Because I say this
is a gift from somebody to us And he is the one that they're securing.
It's not me.
So that's the way I found is illness anybody. He said the truth. Their
body, it's okay. But up in the head they're sick. We all have problems
right now. I'm telling you the truth. Mhm. Why? Because there's a lot of
where is go on around every day. And I know some of your people know that
too. Mhm. Because we've been worrying about things all the time. A lot of
things going on right now, like a lot of these mugs going on what causes
sickness too.
And
of course, in our days, in our indian ways, you you know that the indians
used to be the healthiest people in the world. But up till now,
all the indians are Philip in these hospitals. Why? Because our food is
changes and everything has changed.
What we have to eat in our days by the strongest meal that we have
so good. I'm sorry. These things what causes sickness now? Yeah. See your
foot. You what? People's food are very, very fine and that naturally
right. All right. That's why we're sick all the time.
And I can say this to mm hmm. In medical situation, there's a lot of
chances in white man's medicine. They're still researching some of the
medicines and they are using it now to find out if it will heal the people
and our bodies are not made all safe. They're nuts. All safe. Some are
weak. Some are strong. And some of these medicine that doesn't agree with
your body sometimes. You know, that causes more sickness too. Well, this
is all I can say thank you. Okay. So that we all have a chance to ask some
questions and we'll try to keep our responses kind of short and if you
give your questions short briefly talking is not the only way touching the
trembling of hands using of the eyes are all involved in diagnostic kinds
of work. Yeah. Sorry? Yes.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Everybody hear that. What's being done on reservation to deal with
preventive medicine? An interesting question. 85% of the people that come
into a general medical practice will probably get better anyway or have
something that we can't cure so that it don't make any difference. Kind of
what happens as long as you're kind and nice and one as a warm interaction
or relationship. People are going to get well by and large. It seems to me
that the task for many of us, isn't it not to do any additional harm uh
which also happens on occasion in terms of preventive medicine. Uhh by the
time people become symptomatic, that's the time they will seek out both me
or traditional healer. But what it is that makes them symptomatic, that
differs. For example, an individual might come to see Bill don't know
Herbert Lofton because there has been a bad dream because something has
happened in the night because somebody has seen an animal in a special
place because some special things have occurred and one considers it an
omen okay, an individual is coming in who is already symptomatic, even
though there is no organic deficit. Am I saying that clearly that somehow
there's the anticipation that something is going to happen. But by and
large I see people who already defined themselves as symptomatic when they
come to see me and I think that for both Herbert and Bill to by the time a
patient comes to see them, they've already decided that something is wrong.
I think that medicine by and large has dealt only with symptoms. We wait
for people to come to us and I think that no increase in the number of
doctors is ever going to make any difference in terms of treating illness.
The great advances in medicine have never come from any increase in the
number of practitioners. It has always come from the development of some
preventative agent, the development of a vaccine, a chemical to treat
tuberculosis, that's where the great advances in medicine come from. If we
continue only to restrict ourselves to the symptomatic expression of
disease, it is like treating the fever of leukemia with aspirin and then
thinking that you've done something for the underlying disease. I think we
clearly have to extend ourselves to the areas of preventive medicine and
certainly preventive mental health. Uh we know a lot of things that make
people uptight
and we ought to be able to do something about that. I'm rambling on gus I
think if somebody comes to see me who is working at a place and his boss
happens to be a racist, who is a member of the ku Klux Klan and he says
listen, no matter what I do, he's always putting me down and I can't work
there and it's the only job I can find. If you tell such an individual,
listen you have to adapt. He's the boss and you're going to get fired. You
have to take it. That's a political act. That is even to suggest that you
have to adapt. That is that you have to somehow I can't go along with it
because he's got more power than you do. That's a political act. I think
that part of preventative mental health for example is that one has to
address issues like institutional racism, one has to address the work
setting as well as deal with the individual.
Did you want to hear from somebody else? Kasai will ramble indefinitely.
Mhm. Yeah.
Mhm. Mhm. Uh Okay. Yeah. Mhm. Okay. What you know that there's some things
that make people sick. Can you ever tell people what not to do so that
they will not face? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There you. Mhm. A technician.
Yeah that's a good question. If we could answer that probably it probably
won't help us to get legal arrest. The question is if there is something
that could be done or the people could do to prevent them from getting
sick and this and that
yes there is. If they go ahead and change their way of living and order
and there is a proper thing that you can go and eat. Take into your about
it. It will do your Tibet. But at the present time it is impossible. Years
ago our ancestors used to use nothing but strictly pure food or what they
call and gathered themselves out in the desert. Another place don't work a
natural food. There was no such a thing as significant. Cancer was unknown.
Sugar, diabetes. What's on notes, headache and agitate what unknown until
the civilization began to move in and all that has been changed.
Everything we eat now it's either chemical really truly. When you buy
things off the shelves in the store grocery store, you'll find that it's
been chemically treated and all that sugar, some of it has been substitute
and all that. We're taking that into their body. Remember our body is very
delicate. It only got you so much with sweetness and so forth. The Good
Lord has prepared all that for on all types of food. You take a fruit of
any kind. There's enough sugar in the fruit for your body. Me as well as
any other thing. But no I've seen some pushes which slides a watermelon
and starts Sprinkle more sugar on the thing I say to myself, there goes
the diabetes
that is the thing that caution more diabetes is artificial sweetening and
some parts like that. We go to the restroom and other stuff just to please
our eyes on the plate, but nothing good to our body and leave a good life
? Take plenty exercise. Take plenty of deep breathing and so forth? So you
have a proper blood circulation and all that. You keep your heart function
in the right way. Don't overload yourself with food, which doesn't do you
any good. So this is the thing you can prevent yourself from getting sick
type of all. Thank you. Okay, just as a commentary, the native concept of
health and disease, which is related to the question is that disease is an
absence of harmony that you're kind of not in harmony. You're not in truth
, you're not in truth with yourself. And that in order to get healthy, one
has to kind of restore the balance and the harmony. You've got to to be in
truth and that there are ways to kind of keep oneself in truth. And Bill
is telling about some ways. One is to watch what you eat because what you
take in is what you're going to give out. Another thing is to do those
things that don't violate yourself. They don't violate taboos. They do not
violate the history of ones of one's clan and one's people. And the
disease is disharmony that something is out of sync and you've got to get
it back together again by restoring such harmony and that the process of
healing is a restoration of harmony. You had a question. Mm
wait
mm hmm.
Has anything been found to deal with the problem of alcohol, drugs or
herbs or otherwise? Thanks with indians. Is there something
that you have found that works with alcohol problems among indian people?
Is there anything you found? Yes. Dear.
Mhm. That's a good question. We've been trying to lecture our people. I'm
under indians about taking alcohol and so forth. Like that's the worst
thing they can do alcohol. It's something that is not made for the barry.
Mhm.
At the present time will say not a percent of our people, the indian
people, they began to go down and this and that alcohol is she shined all
types of happy marriages and so forth will get on the reservation. We do
not know how to use alcohol.
But instead of using it property, if there is such a word is properly used
of alcohol. I don't find it. I don't use it. So district joe that is the
thing that destroy our crime of the native on the reservation. I find that
there is no other thing about drinking now there is something else that's
coming up among what are young restrictions using is this marijuana may
your honor is a great dish destruction to a human mind. I don't remember
that. However, deny we have studied it now. The state of Arizona is
talking about bringing in marijuana is illegal. Wish I know. All right go
unless you wanna see more debt and destruction and all that there if they
want to accept it. Okay. But me, I said no. Yeah, alcohol hasn't got much
place in the human body. I hope I'm right. Yeah, hurry. Do you want to
speak to that? You're an air hole?
This is a Yeah, I'm not a political question. What bill told you about
this record deal? You know, it's it's really not good for any kind of of a
life hell destruct everything.
And some years ago we had to attend a conference on phoenix. You know,
they were talking about legalizing this marijuana,
which I know is a deadly weapon to humans being now. I don't know why some
of these doctors agreed to make that legalizing marijuana. It's not good.
I'm against these things, you know, because a lot of these things and a
lot of people have gone with all these linker.
Okay. And I wish that some day
we'll get rid of all this different kinds of a destructive record there.
It's just simply wasting to human bodies. And I'm telling you the truth,
it's really it's getting worse everywhere. It's all over now and for that
reason everybody got a problem right now. Thank you. I think before we go
on that conceptually, it's important to kind of understand kind of where
it's coming from. You know, alcoholism at least from my perspective in
terms of working with reservation communities and for bill and Herbert as
well is not a disease, which has been kind of the current concept in this
country. There's something comforting about viewing alcohol as a disease,
like something you've got like having a tumor or like having diabetes, it
takes the responsibility away from oneself for doing something about it.
After all, if you're suffering from a disease, the tested implication is
that there's something affecting you from the outside over which one has
no control. I think we have to get away from that conceptually, alcohol is
a disease that has been foisted upon indian people. After 100 years of
federal neocolonial dependency
that the government has come and essentially changed indian lifestyles. It
has changed the lifestyle and made a once proud and grand people, a a
group dependent on the federal government for most of their services,
dominant culture has never understood it by taking something away from
someone, you make them less of what it is that they were. And there's also
a tacit assumption that what the what it is that you're giving is better
than what it is. That once was there the end result of the last 100 years
, a federal neo colonialism has been an enforced dependency and a sense of
powerlessness by many tribal groups feeling that they can't make the
change because the government is true too strong, which it was when it
originally relegated them to reservations. It's very hard to get angry at
such an oppressor because they have so much power and the fear is that if
you get angry, I mean really piste off that the people are going to take
away what little has already been given, so that there is real and fantasy
fears of retribution. So, one thing that happens is you deal with anger
and frustration and a feeling of powerlessness in self destructive ways
and alcohol is such a self destructive symptoms and the way to deal with
that I think is not chemicals but a redistribution of power. And those are
the kinds of areas in which people are working when Herbert and Bill say,
hey booze is destructive and grasses destructive. It comes from a point of
view that says it keeps us without power, it destroys us in terms of not
being able to get it together by using things that take away the energy
for making constructive change. It keeps us down.
Are there times when a whole community
Mhm.
No, something not just appointed, but with the whole thing, man.
Yeah. Mhm.
Well
that is this way, if the whole community come into sickness, like for
instance coal maybe going around and other things, all right, the others
pass through for people themselves, you know, I've gone from house to
house, you know, and all that kind of a sickness. But the only thing is
to prevent that as
try to be happy whether the sickness is going around, don't pay any
attention to those things. That's the only way you can prevent it, you
know, just feel that there is nothing going around even though there might
be a sickness around a lot of these other sicknesses that we're talking
about, this alcoholism. It says alcohol can form any kind of a sickness in
our bodies. They say I agree with that because I'm not a scientist or
anything like that, you know? But through my experience, I've found a lot
of these things
and as I said while ago, I wish we could get rid of some of these things
someday, you know? But the only thing I can say this, of course the money
is derived abundantly from all his alcohol. That's why the government just
opened it to the people.
I think they are wrong in doing that? I'm not against the government, but
our Sadie's, they are wrong. It isn't good for anybody. It isn't good for
the health. So that's one thing, you know, I wish they could get rid of it
some way someday. Mm hmm. Mhm, mm hmm, mm hmm. Mhm.
Okay. Mhm. Mhm.
Right. Mm. Yeah.
Okay. The question was, our indian tribes themselves, doing something
about meeting their own health needs, both alcohol and grass. I'm not sure
we should include grasp because of my own personal biases. But uh uh Okay.
I'm sorry. Would it be easier? Can you hear now, sir? It's hard for me to
stand up. I have a bad back, but I'm willing to speak louder if that's
okay.
Uh you're pregnant. That's true. But Herbert is helping me? I went to the
Mayo clinic, they told me I needed an operation uh and I walked out
without the operation. Uh
and what about schools for training medicine men? Uh
you I really lost the tenor of the question, what are the tribes
themselves doing to deal with their health needs? And
there is a school for Medicine men on the Navajo reservation which you
might want to hear about from Herbert and Bill, that's a school at the
Rough administration school where there are training medicine man, bob
Bergman is here, he can tell you more about that uh since he was
instrumental in this founding, but if you'd like to hear it from another
perspective, uh there's some strong feelings among tribal groups that it
can't be taught that the gift is somehow given. Uh and it's a very
difficult thing to teach. One either has it and finds it or one doesn't
have, it doesn't find it. Uh But there are such schools in which the
tradition is attempted to be passed down from one generation to the next.
It's very difficult to learn. For example, another Hussein which may take
9-12 days Bergman told me is like translating the Bible and learning it by
heart. Uh huh. Ben
Yeah,
that's a good question,
I think I have already explained from the start, that that's what I have
known and give to me and the question that's now asked, could I cheat
somebody to take over my work like that. I don't have that kind of a power
to hand down to the next person I may teach. Like as I stated, I'm trying
to teach my daughter, living down to song, she's a nurse, she needs some
of those uh small things like that to help other people. But to hang
everything down, I don't have the power and give to do so this will have
to go down with me in my grave. Thank you. Only in Western medicine, can
you learn how to be a doctor? You go to medical school, they tell you you
know everything and you go out and practice on people. There is a total
absence of any sense of one's own spirituality. Uh we can talk about that
at great length, but I think the important issue is that there's more to
healing than somehow it being talked in some organized and well formulated
curriculum. There are clearly many people who can heal who have not been
so trained.
That question came of course, I think that MS, thank you much. Well, I
think I have the same question, I know they're coming from a place in
Tucson where we are working very hard in the community to try to educate
people to how to come to truth, how to come to balance. I feel the
question is what are, what is happening on the indian reservation, to
train the indian people themselves, not new generations of healers, but
the people themselves to recognize the disharmony to do most of the
healings before they get to the hell of is there that kind of educational
thing happening east and western?
Okay, I'm not trying to translate that question in some way that Mhm I'll
respond to myself and if you want to kind of make a statement, I think
that you know, we're talking now no longer about disease, What we're
talking about is how are we going to change a history of 100 years, 100
years of dependency, 100 years of perceived powerlessness. How does one
kind of take things back in control? And it seems to me that the concept
is not one of medicine, but one of redistribution of power, which is
really what I think what healing is about. That's what I do. I teach
people personally perceived power, which is what mental health is, that
you have the power to change your life, that you have the power to make
some alteration in your destiny. That you can do some things that
previously you may have thought that you could not and that you're
responsible for yourself extended. It applies to communities and
organizations as well, that the community have to perceive their own
powerful nous that the tribes themselves have to know that what they say
needs to be listened to and that to get to real health. We're talking
about redistributing power, that the nature of the disease, as Bill and
Herbert had talked about is is as much mental as it is physical. The
feeling that one cannot do it and that's what one has to deal with saying.
Yeah. Yeah, man and change. Go ahead. Yeah. I think what she has any
resource
rolling the robot under No.
Yeah. Uh huh. Uh Raymond, do you want to say something? Yeah. As Raymond
caine, who is the director of the White Mountain Apache guidance clinic.
So if you want to know what indian people are doing to to control our own
health services, this is a tribally operated mental health center and this
is Mr A McCain, its executive director. Yeah. Yes. I think we're kind of
getting in the way. I think some of the questions you've been asking is
political. You know, what can we do about the government, that's something
what we're interested. But I came here, I was primarily interested was the
healing art of the, you know, never mind about the academics. What are my
interest in this gentleman? What it does to think? Talking about the other
is kind of political. Yeah. This kind of religion. This to me from my own
observation, what has been brought to me brought down to me by my
forefathers said this is a way of life with us, not just a religion, it's
not a segment of our lives. This is something that we do every day from
the time you get up until in the morning in the morning until in the
evening. So I think what I was primarily interested in the learning was
that the art of healing not learning but just to get an idea or try to
establish an understanding and I kind of think that it's cut into a
political thing. What are we doing education and so on? You know that's
fine. But what I'm interested in is what we are doing here is the art of
healing and how it's approached. Rather than just being academic granted.
None of our medicine man will come up here with sheepskin that says he's
an M. D. Or PhD or what this is a hard, hard life that they have to go
through And it takes years and years just as well as this. Good doctor
hear. It takes that much time. They don't get compensated for later are
materially because they are not materialistic and you got to learn the
culture values and this is part of the process right here we have a sense
of sharing, not just giving but a sense of sharing and this is part of our
lives unless you understand, try to get to understand that part of the
culture value system versus the dominant our society, the materialistic
attitude. Then I think we will go a long ways.
So why not just uh let me line something up. Okay. Yeah.
Ladies and gentlemen,
I think at a time just about to run out. There hasn't been a question to
ask about us
about our price. Working over people or anything like that. I'm glad no
question was asked on that. We have no such a thing as price.
We don't have no license or anything to carry on and try to scheme the
people out of there nickels and dimes and so forth like that. We take on
all comers. And the question is to ask us, how much do your chart or how
much do I owe you? I always turn around and tell them that's a good
question. We have no such a thing. Uh high on our Mhm. We are only trying
to carry on on what our spiritual father says. Give us and want us to do.
If you want to help us outward to anything, It'll have to be on your own
three will Yeah, show in that manner. Of course it's very expensive for us
to run all over the country and clear down to mexican border from special
herbs and stuff like that. It's a charge to carry on our and what Lynn
away on. We just revolved it around together more in order to save more
lives.
Mhm. Ladies and gentlemen, I have a poor education to say, I do not have
educated
but yet I'm thankful for some of the white people that through some of the
best education into the trash can when I go along and picked them out.
That's where my education come from. And ladies and gentlemen, I'm glad
to be here. I'm getting down to my second childhood
At the present time. I'm 81 years old, still strong and I hope get to the
top whatever. To top it. Looking up there show daddy I want to thank you
people here that are all here. Thank you too. Thank you for coming here
and listen to it and what we have told you. I hope you would go on with
your life and also better your life. Thank you.
You want to say is hoping to bring another. Huh? You want to take them
from my Children? Yeah.
Well we're glad to have your attention and I hope you learn something from
us. Mm I know I want to thank everything how this organization they
treated us
and let us consider ourselves as brothers and sisters all the time. Trying
to save the people the best we know how. Thank you.
I think that that's
Mellon Herbert. Tell me that it's time to stop. That means it's time to
stop. Uh We thank you for being here this morning. We'd be welcome to kind
of stay here if you'd like to speak to us.
Mhm Yeah.
Uh huh.
He brought his face Baskin 7 50 hands. No, have you found you? Thanks. Hi
bye.
You and I can.
Yeah, we're here. Our health and healing. Uh it's a new interest. A
revived interest and Julia and I are going to talk about people and health
and healing where it is not a new interest in, where it's not a revived
interest but has been ever present. Mexican people, especially mexican
women who lived isolated on ranchos far away from medical centers long ago
learned how to take care of people, how to keep them well and what to do
for them when they got sick. Uh Julia. Soto comes from one of those
families where they learned how to keep people well and to do something
for them once they did get sick. And so I'm going to start by asking her
um a little bit about this past. Uh how did, how did women learn how to
keep their Children healthy and their families healthy.
Uh, am I on, Can you hear? Okay. Uh I think that first we have to set a
little bit of a background among the mexican american cultures as well as
any other cultures. Family traditions are really the jewels, not the
things that are material things but traditions that have been passed on
from generation to generation. And one of these has been the art or the
expertise and being able to take care of your family with the things that
you have been able to find within the household are out in the fields
pretty near to the household. First I would like to say that most of the
things that have been done by the mexican american families are not
because those people were ignorant and didn't know how to get to a doctor.
It is because within the family structure there has always been a very
deep sense of caring for what happens to the families and I'm sure it's
the same and many other families because every culture has folk healing
regardless of which folk you are, whether you're black, whether you're
jewish, whether you're mexican american, whether you're indian. But
because of the way society has been in the past, many of the mexican
american people had not had access to healthcare or very frankly speaking
, they could not afford it. Therefore many of the traditions that had been
handed on from generation to generation is what has been practiced at home.
Much of this has been with the herbs that we found either in the home or
around the home. The other was with, the practice is practiced by the
mexican american, the Yaqui culture from which I come from. So this is how
the mother does with a lot of the things that are in the home and like as
any other village where people have their elders, we also have our elders.
We also have what is called the Trabaja Dora Trabaja laura in an indian
language is a person who is really committed to working for the people
rather than working for himself or herself. So these are some of the
practices that we have in the mexican american culture. And I would like
to ask rita at this time if there is any specific thing that she would
like to ask me.
Okay Because Children are so vulnerable and because their health is is
such a delicate matter. What kinds of things are done to keep very small
Children well and what kinds of illnesses are they prone to? Oh for some
of the home remedies that were practiced with the Children uh in
identifying that perhaps a child was running a fever. We have been
involved in sponging off the child, not so much in the traditional ways of
Western medicines, but things that we ourselves have done at home. I would
say that the herbs play a very important part in the mexican american home.
The herbal teas in order to bring down fever. Uh using of leaves as
coolants for example, uh wedding off the leaves and keeping them in clean
cloth and then applying them to the Children where it's all around their
heads or on their bodies. But sponging mags down very foreign. But when we
say I get llevar Nino float are low, which means that with water and
alcohol are just bringing his temperature down. The mexican americans.
Think of diseases is either hot or cold. Your fevers are your fabulous.
Those that have to do with heat. Your pas, most are most of the, of the
illnesses that have to do with cold within the body and the body not
except in certain forms of cold within the body? Such as your congestions
? Such as various rashes that are due to cold now these are some of my
very own deep beliefs and uh we practice that when we sponge the Children
down for fevers, we more or less do it in the same way you do. Except that
we believe in a lot of the herbal teas for bringing down fever. And I
don't think that's so far fetched because the doctor tells us plenty of
liquids, yours might be water and seven up to us it might be Manson. Eah,
it might be Mancini was a little bit of margarita was such a piece of a
route. It might be various kinds of teas, but these also help in control
the fever.
You mentioned some of the specific herbs and you mentioned Man's ania.
This is not one that grows in the desert, it wants a little bit more
moisture and a cooler climate to flourish. But it's an example of one of
the herbs that has been known since antiquity and I really mean antiquity.
Uh This is an herb that was used before the time of christ. You find it
in the bible. Uh Another herb that you use a great deal is circle, which
is just now starting to bloom. Many people know this as elder blossom. An
elder blossoms have been recorded 1500 1800 years before Christ uh as an
herb that brings down the temperature. Um Do you use it yourself? Do you
have it in your garden? Yes I do. We grow our our psycho. We have all
types of herbs within the family what we call the Koran, the area in the
back of the house or to the side of the house. It used to be a time when
in Tucson you could go along the river banks and just go down and pick
your own south of when the blossoms were just about ready to be picked
before uh the fruit came in to be. And uh mostly all the mexican american
homes have south Romance ania canela which is your cinnamon and uh many of
the other uh rueda which is a herb that is used for the curing of ear ache
or at least stabilizing the ear ache if in case the infection goes deeper.
But all these uh teas and all these herbs are found. Unfortunately as we
progress with the building of more stores and homes and shopping centers,
many of the things that used to grow wild are no longer available. So you
must go to a drugstore in order to be able to to acquire some of these
things are going to nogales in Mexico and purchase them there. But in most
of the homes you could find that the small heartily nor garden had a
variety of, of the leaves and herbs and roots and barks and just about
anything that was used in the mexican american home,
One of the healing plants that has fallen to developers is the prickly
pear. If you took a pad of the prickly pear and split it open and rubbed
it along sore areas that needed healing. Uh This is known in many indian
uh, healers and also mexican healers. A low uh, which is another one of
those things that you read about in the bible has recently been noted to
be the best kind of remedy against the severe burns that sometimes are
caused by X rays. And if you have a low growing in your garden, you just
break off a branch and split it so that you get off the epidermis, that's
the top thick layer uh where the fluid starts to run and rub that along
where it's sore.
One of the the little herbs that I was quite delighted to see growing wild
around uh arcosanti is the the bureau, which is this what you see here and
this is one of the best remedies that you have for sores regardless of
whether it is a cut that festered or whether it's a boil or whatever. This
is one of the best remedies for, for cleansing wounds. And uh
unfortunately you don't see too much of it in Tucson now you really have
to go out into the desert as long as you're not in one of the national
forests where you're gonna be fine for picking whatever is available. But
uh this is if you boil this and cleans, cleanse the wound with the water.
This is one of the best cleaning uh medicinal herbs that grows abundantly.
Like I say you can look out and see it growing quite wild Doctor or t
stop the card. He got done and said oh my God I haven't seen this since.
Most of it grows very wild along the railroad tracks. But now that the sp
company sprays along the railroad tracks, most of these things die and
those that aren't dead are contaminated. So you're better off finding it
somewhere around here if you feel comfortable dealing with with herbs and
plants. This is the thing the thing to get for cleansing of wounds and
sores or even splinters that might have festered and now have passed
around them. This is the stuff to use. It's called bureau, we'd bureau and
it has a little distinctive smell to it but it really it works. Believe
you me
actually. Um what most of us have growing in our garden and we really wish
it weren't growing. There is called spurge. It's a flat black milkweed.
And it even can crowd out bermuda and that must be a pretty vigorous kind
of plant. Uh And this is what we tend to use the mexicans call it um uh
yerba colon Drina. And it too is very good for cleaning wounds that
festered and extremely valuable in the days before we had antibiotics in
the days before we had antiseptic solutions for cleaning herbs for
cleaning out wounds. Um We have, by the way, specimens of herbs upstairs
in the exhibits. Uh we have one collection of dr Ortiz is, we have a
collection of mine. We have a collection that martin Enriquez made and
they're really there for your interest. I doubt if there's enough of a
specimen for you to be able to go out and make your own identification.
There are some of the specimens that are pretty hard to come by. One of
them is the casa. We treat. It's a small bush and in uh before toothbrush
and dental forests. And all these other good things came about. Most of
the people used to use this for gum disease and also for the cleaning of
the teeth. It's almost like pearl drops. You can actually hear your teeth
squeak if you run your tongue over it. And and many in dealing with many
of these herbs, I kind of make some comparisons to uh some of the things
that you see on television nowadays, for example, most of the things that
grow while have a certain amount of their own cloverfield. Therefore many
of the things that were used for medicinal purposes can also be used for
survival purposes for those of you that know the desert quite well. You
can survive on the desert. Believe you me, you really can if you know what
you're eating. So the best thing to do is to be able to learn to identify
one of the best books that I have seen put out is this book here that
identifies you all the herbs and the properties contained there in. But
like I say, many of the things that you do see on the desert can also be
used for survival purposes. And some of these uh doctor teased by the way
he jumped off the car and got this for me, this is matured. So it's not
very good at this point by when it's fresh, this is what we call our wild
spinach. Not only is it very good for you vegetarians, but it also has
quite a bit of chlorophyll in it. So that's one of them. And the Virgo
lage is another one. It is high in protein and iron. And so this is a very
melodic. Okay, this is not the one you really want to eat. You can use the
one that's a little bit finer. And I can assure you among the mexican
american people if you've eaten Verda Lara's with. Okay, so you've had a
rare treat because they really are very good. Believe you, me getting back
to the course that we we'd uh this weed, you could, it's actually a piece
of a bark and you can cut it off and clean it off and start to chew it
once you're chewing it it develops a lot of foam in your mouth and it
actually cleans your teeth. It's kind of red tinted. It's almost like the
pills that the doctors give you at one time when you go into the dentist's
office to identify the dirty areas in your teeth or where you have
cavities. However this weed you can chew it a lot and spit it out and your
mouth will remain not only clean and they actually squeak and they do turn
white. So course are we winning? It's a little bush. It grows almost like
a manzanita bush. But if they catch you picking it in the national Forest
they're gonna find you. It's kind of hard to come by. But that's one of
the identifiable ones that people were using a long long time ago in order
to cleanse uh Their mouths. Believe you me they work
of course. Are we C. U. C. O. S. I. S. I causal wi goes away actually in a
brief talk this afternoon we can't train you as a botanist uh to identify
plants and it really would be necessary to do so because uh some of the
good guys and some of the bad guys look pretty much alike. We tend to
leave these up to specialists and in good and terrorismo in the mexican
healing system. There is a whole hierarchy of specialists. I think any
woman knows something about plants I or and herbs. Uh But there tends to
be one person in the family who knows the most. Um
and if not in her family may be related. Maybe it's a grandmother, maybe
it's a godmother. Uh among those is somebody who knows a little bit more
and who is entitled to the title of salvatore or so bad or if it's a man,
what does this kind of person do Julia?
We have, I would say, I would say three different categories. There is
diarrhea vista, the person that deals strictly with healing with herbs.
There is the curandera that does the healing with herbs as well as a
little bit of Servando. And believe you me the best person to get a lot of
mental health counseling from even in its primitive forms, most of the
current areas which were very wise, older people could really come across
what a therapist nowadays would charge a fantastic fortune fortune for.
But believe you me the curandera uh really plays an important part because
she could combine the three things. This was not only savannah bow the leg
of the hands on the person, but the using of the herbs as well as
listening to many things that went on within the home. And believe you me
, she is really trained from generation to generation to pick up many of
the things I still go to a curandera, a lot of people tell me, where are
they even margarita has asked me are there any practice in tears and I
said yes, there's a couple in old Pascua, one in old meron, a village, one
in the new Pasco village, we have a Salvador uh older chinese person that
was living down toward the south side of town, it's kind of a little bit
hard to get to him because some of them have gone underground because at
one time is what's considered that it was a no no to go to a doctor and to
also can keep on going to a curandera or harvest or a Salvador. One of the
things that I have dedicated myself is to try and try and prove to you
that the two can be combined and that they can work successfully together
. I believe that if you take certain people's beliefs from them either by
ridicule or buy in a sense forbidding them to go that you have kind of
doubt the person a blow and they do have set him back in some of his
healing process. If you take beliefs away from people, you're just about
in a sense putting them down. I think that that is very important that you
listen to them with their beliefs and not only with a curiosity but with
general concern and genuine concern as to who are they going to and what
do they do and I think this is very good because what I use as a
supportive argument is that most of the herbs and the methods that we use
are non addictive. They are person to person healing. They are using
things that are natural and that is not giving people tranquilizers hoping
that the problem will go away. It's dealing with the problem at the time.
So this is where the curandera. I think every person should have a co
madre. Somebody that you can come fight into many of the code and let us
play this role and they're really involved in listening to many of your
problems. And sometimes just having somebody to talk to is 50% of the
battle. One of the mental diseases you were speaking of the role of the
curandera really is a psychiatrist. Um sometimes people are very badly
frightened and uh they can be frightened by a traumatic incident which
would be terrifying. And there are specific kinds of ways to help someone
who has been assessed avocado or is suffering from Sesto from fright. What
is done for these people. Some of these methods you might consider a
little bit far out but most of them that couldn't let us deal with our
actually giving the patient their time looking at the patient, I had a
little girl, I had a little girl and we were involved in a car accident
and she can we took her to ST mary's of course the bump on her head was
looked at and she was checked for internal injuries and she was all right.
However, within the following weeks she lost weight. She was constantly
frightened of getting into the car and I took her to the curandera and
Pasco village and she says part of the child's friday is that you have
forced her to get into the car. You don't alleviate people's problems by
forcing them to do things. You work with the patient or the person and
trying to get them to accept that not all drivers that are on the highway
are crazy. That there are some good ones and there's some bad ones and you
helped her overcome her fears. Much of the sessions that I had with her
were counseling sessions, but also the fact that she says now this is the
method that you might think is a little bit uh well I would say strange,
but the lady uh having no formal medical training except those that I
considered the jewels of tradition set the baby down and she began to
touch her head and to survive her. She says my goodness, this little girl
is only nine and just she's just jumpy just to touch her and she says her
nerves are a mess and she says I don't blame her because after being in a
car accident even I was afraid to get into the car and drive. But being a
little bit older my husband says get in the car before you really get
nervous and you'll never drive again but with the baby being much smaller
, I took her to this lady and she began to do what we call the Servando
the laying of the hands on the patient. Unfortunately nowadays a lot of us
have gotten away from that and we prescribe rather than deal with the
patient and really tend to the patient. So the laying of the hand, she
talked to the to the baby for quite a long time, sat down, prepared a cup
of tea for her and was able to talk to her and I took her back two or
three times. She says don't force her to do things because one of these
days she's gonna be so excited about going somewhere and she won't even
remember that she's going to have to get in the car to get there. And
that's exactly what happened. But the lady was able to perceive her
problem and say you're forcing the child to do something that she is
afraid of. To the point that sometimes I used to say get in the car or
stay home. The lady said patients and dealing and teaching her to accept
your problem. And if this is not a form of mental health counseling, I
don't know what it is, it's a very primitive way, but a very effective way.
I imagine that the tea that she prescribed was to the assad orange
blossom tea. Um oranges were brought to the new world by the priests that
came to mission eyes and orange blossom tea has been known again since
antiquity um to be very calming to the heart and to the nerves because it
was believed that the heart was the seat of the soul. And when you're very
badly frightened you're in danger of losing your soul, it's going to fly
away because there's nothing to attach it. And so a T. Is made of orange
blossom tea. I noticed that in our cafeteria at the health sciences Center
, they're serving a great many teas and one of the T. S that they offer is
orange blossom tea. I do recommend it. Um Sometimes fight the requires
even more stringent measures. And I'm thinking about the use of a ho
okay. Some people might say this is a strange practice. I really don't
think so. If you uh figure that suppositories to some people might seem
like a foreign object within the body. They are. The same thing is how the
use of garlic close is utilized. And what happens is if a person has
suffered a su store traumatic experience. These are, our clothes are
warmed in a little bit of oil and they are inserted into the rectum, just
like a suppository would be if the child has suffered a traumatic
experience. The clove of garlic will immediately almost like as if by
section be taken into the body. If he hasn't, the body is in no way going
to accept that clove of garlic. Believe you me, the body's mechanisms also
respond immediately. And I have uh used repositories in in order to bring
down fever in Children. And instead of giving them sometimes orally, they
do it through a suppository to direct them. This is the same way that the
garlic clothes are used. And people say, oh my God, garlic, believe you me
, A garlic clove clove is much smaller than the animal probe that is used.
And people say, what a strange practice. It's really not strange because
they use a suppository to us might just be as strange as it is for you to
accept the clove of garlic, believe me, but the comparison is there, it's
the same principle, but with different ingredients. Okay. Mhm.
Sometimes um Children are frightened and sometimes adults are frightened
and these can be treated, but sometimes their illnesses are more physical.
You spoke about cosmos and cosmos can be had by women after childbirth,
by small babies, by Children and adults after surgery or dental work. And
the treatment isn't very comfortable, but the illness certainly isn't very
comfortable either. I wonder if you talk about that.
Some of the possibles take on various forms. It is one of our beliefs that
after childbirth that if a pas mo occurs or certain cold temperatures
invade a woman's body that a lot of vaginal itching occurs and most of the
, of the elderly people that could and eras and I had seven. Children.
Believe you me, my mother in law was a curandera and I have a picture of
her in an article that was written about her that I would like to display
as soon as my Children were born. Many of the things that I wanted to do
where I know. No, I remember she used to come over and put some sulfur
powder in my slippers.
She never used laughing. I think that some of you are going to uh kind of
be familiar with the things that I'm talking about because like I say
family traditions are the greatest jewels. And whether I used to believe
in plasma or not believe in me, I believe about it now. Uh she would put
sulfur in in the slippers. And I always say keep your feet warm. Uh that
was one form of plasma. The vaginal itching with many of the things that
we call like king cual or various rashes we felt that that was brought on
a plasma within the body because of cold within the body. Just like heat
rash is a form of heat hitting the body or the skin layers. So we, I
firmly believe that diseases run in hot and cold varieties. There are
those that I immediately say cold has invaded the body and with others
like your fevers and various rashes, heat has invaded the body. And I
really believe this because if you stand to reason some of the things that
we do in our homes and some of the things that the doctors prescribe are
one and the same thing. For example in heat stroke, we always used to say
that if clothing can keep out the cold, it can also keep out the heat. And
I think that some of the people that dangerously go out and sit in the sun
and expect to tan and usually wind up being sunburned are really exposing
themselves to too much at one time. So you never used to see the people
that were out in the farms actually bear down to their midriffs. In fact,
you used to see them with what is now the most used cloth which is denim
and every household had a young, how many of you are familiar with the
word jump everybody old one and one of the compass was the jackets that
you see most of the train engineers wearing. And even though it was hot,
people kept their bodies cool and voice by the sweat generated by the
clothing which is nature's way of cooling the body if you're not wearing
anything and you start sweating and you dehydrate, you dehydrate period.
Believe you me, that's fever. Okay. Another common sense logic that was
also used was always keeping your mouth wet and the best way to do it in
summertime, regardless if you're walking short or long distances is take a
clean pebble and always keep it in your mouth and it will always generate
saliva. Therefore you will not get waterlogged. Otherwise you're going to
be swishing as you walk and really feeling tired because you can actually
hear the water. You not only get tired. You also use a lot of your extra
energies. Believe you me, why don't you mention insulation while you're at
it? Well, this is like heat stroke. We have insulation and in Tbilisi on
and a few others Fiona's but it has to do with the same thing that I'm
speaking about. And that is much of the home remedies are good common
sense and just being able to determine which is good common sense. Many of
the Children coming running and they're over uh heated there over tired,
they're over sweating and they come in and immediately flip on the cooler.
And I have actually seen kids go into convulsions because the cold air
hits them all of a sudden they start and that is no way to do you really,
we really have to cool off even before getting artificial cooling off.
Otherwise you're gonna wind up with problems.
You spoke about being one of seven. Nowadays, women go to the hospital to
have their babies. But uh in olden days before there weren't any hospitals
or before uh it was possible to go, most women had their babies at home.
What was that? Like?
My mother in law just passed away at the age of 96 and all her Children
were born at home with midwives and uh I was born at home and I was
delivered by my brother. I really can't tell you about that experience.
But I can tell you some of the experiences that I have witnessed lately.
Uh
very frankly speaking, they say that nobody can give birth to a child
better than a woman does and unless there are complications that then a
woman really needs to have somebody uh about that will be able to help the
woman. However, in most of the patients that we were attending to in 1970
, where most of the women that had all had their children's at home, we
were very, very few of us that had actually gone to two different
hospitals. And uh very frankly speaking, the curandera, the party era was
very well trained. I believe that one of the most famous one is the one
that in Tucson at least was Lola, that always helped dr alan with his
deliveries. And she was very well qualified to go out and deliver the
Children at home. And like I say, most of the babies were delivered at
home. Uh, women more or less expected it and they knew that they weren't
going to be able to afford a hospital unless they were cunning like I was
, I had my Children at various hospitals with various doctors because I
always hold the last one from the previous birth, believing me after seven
kids. So most of the Children just knew that they were going to uh most of
the women knew that they were going to be able to deliver at home and that
apartheid era would be there. My mother in law was 93 years old when she
delivered her last baby before the fire rescue squad or anybody got there.
By the time they got there, she had delivered the baby, tied the
umbilical cord, washed her hands and was walking away when the fire
department uh drove by and then they sent the mother and the child to the
hospital for their checkup. But she had done an excellent job. What kinds
of things were recommended for a woman to keep herself healthy while she
was pregnant? What kinds of things did she not do and do? Well, like I say
, some of the family traditions who are not always good for you. I
remember that when I was pregnant, they used to say now there's two of you
, you must eat more and more and more. There was times when I didn't feel
like eating and yet I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. So I used to
sit there and gouge myself. Uh some of the things that were, I say, common
sense in any, in anybody's culture is don't lift heavy stuff, take care of
yourself, get plenty of rest, uh rest when the Children are out of the
house, you know, take some time for yourself really. And what can you do
while you're preparing for your baby? Nature is taking care of everything
within you? And outwardly you're the one that's responsible for taking
care of your own cleanliness, your arrest, and your good diet. The rest
nature does pretty well. Were there any herbs that you took? No, not
really. What about as you got near labor? What about when you got near to
labor? Well, I can't say that I would vouch as to what would happen at
home. I do know that uh, when I got near to labor, my mother in law would
always come over and just try to make me as comfortable as possible.
Because usually all of us that have Children, we know we began with a
backache and just we not as, you know, everything is so depressing, even
though we're waiting for that great expectation. But most of it was just
learning to take care of yourself. I remember she used to walk right
alongside of me and I was always rubbing my back until I got ready to go
to the hospital. But you can't say, you know, you just go along. But like
I say, nature takes care of what's going on inside. You take care of
what's going outside cleanliness rest and a good diet. Believe you me, uh
, sometimes after a baby is born the last child that was had been the baby
and is now no longer the baby uh suffers from jealousy and suffers to the
degree that that child gets sick. Uh child may get be called. The Shadow
cheaply.
How many of you are familiar with the word cheaply.
It means that the child becomes very, very much attached to the mother and
that the child can sense that there is something happening within the
household. Unfortunately, many of the people we adults contribute to the
behavior of this child because we say you're not going to be the favorite
one instead of helping the child except the new baby in a positive way.
Like mama's gonna have a baby and you being a little bit bigger, you can
help we wind up making fun of the child instead of helping the child
adjust in a positive way. And that is part of mental health counseling
because Children do get depressed, they do get depressed because they're
being thrust in a new role which they have no control over. Its an
understanding between father and mother that now they want another child
and little ones do get what we call a factory Seattle's and it is a form
of depression. Some of the Children really suffer it from more than others
and they really get depressed, they become withdrawn, they lose their
appetite or they get very what we call whiny, everything that you seem to
want to do for, they whine about everything and this is a form of
depression because you kind of feel that you're being shoved aside. I
don't think that it's any different than with the husband. Sure, the
husband wants a baby, but once the baby is born than he in a sense,
becomes very defensive and depressed like the baby takes up all of your
time or he's always whining or what what, what, what, what, so it happens
to all ages. This is one of the things that we have been able to involve
the whole family in. I think this is very important because spending time
with the patient and learning to talk to the patient in your own way is
the best form of therapy. We have been able to involve the whole family by
actually making certain members of the family responsible for a certain
degree of responsiveness and bringing back into the fold that child, which
we ourselves have ostracized by our own comments. So this is a form of
Teresia. Some of the treatment for Teresa for Children has traditionally
involved the color red uh, in the really very traditional, very old
fashioned families. A bath is prepared for the baby out of uh herb, the
root of which turns the water red, brazil would and that's curie to look
at or buying a red dress or a red necklace or something of that sort
like um, some of the decorators nowadays say that in order to really help
patients and uh, new traditions, even within the more modern settings,
they say certain colors. Excite certain colors. A restful, certain colors
bring joy. That red is what we call a standalone mystery to the whole
family used to get involved. And I think this is part of the secret of
being able to involve the family or a member of the family. And we always
used to say a salute to colorado because we felt that red was joyous kind
of color, but not only that the important thing is that that child knows
that he is the one that's being paid attention to and that that red dress
or shirt is for him and you try and make one thing for one child and
you're going to see that she or he immediately gets involved in what
you're sewing or doing for that child. And part of that therapy is making
that child feel important and pull him out of his depression. So yes, it
is very traditional even in our religious ideas and are relics that we use.
Most of the relics that we use are encased in little pieces of red cloth
that I either pin to my under slipper to my brower to my purse or wherever
I want to carry it. This is part of my tradition and I happen to think red
is exciting. So do men men constantly say, have you seen that blonde in
that red dress? They never say, have you seen that blonde in the blue
dress. So it is an attention getting color and kids like it just like any
other person. We're really not that far separated from each other. I think
we're saying the same things. Only some of us charged more for what we do.
Some of us charge nothing. You speak often of the similarity between what
scientific medicine has learned and what traditional medicine has known
all along. One of the kinds of illnesses that little Children suffer a
great deal from his diarrhea. Did the CIA usually doesn't have diarrhea,
but there are the diseases uh shortly after birth of uh host, the child
could become a con. And I think some of the ideas there, we've kind of
changed our minds on
the way that I understand pose and decent area has been a certain degree
of cold within the system. Whether it's brought on by something that maybe
the mother has done or by bacteria. But this entire area is actually cold
within the stomach and the bows and for those of us that have studied and
when I go to a curandera and she gives me something for the Children, she
says watch their stools closely. Tell me how they look now as far as
polkas and this imperia is concerned. The hoses when the child grunts. But
jojo's combined with a certain amount of, I would say when the child has a
bowel movement. I think happens to do with bacteria. The other type of
glucose where the child is touched within the 40 days of the idea to uh of
abstention really from sexual contact with her husband after birth is more
or less I think that is thought about in brewery a scandal Charles holo is
up corn. That is two entirely different things boho with this interior and
about movement is something that is happening physiologically. Uh, jojo's
as far as beliefs
r is another thing. Then let me make a comparison. How many of you saw the
exorcist?
How many of you saw the exorcist? Nobody? Uh, that meant that you know
that there was a devil evil spirit within the person's body. Okay, that
was not dreamed up by a mexican american. I assure you he didn't write the
exorcist. But these are some of the things that we also believe caste in
India Vlado stay in daniel. We believe in obsession or that people can be
obsessed. At least I do. I'm not speaking for any other mexican american
and indian people present. I do. I feel that certain behaviors cannot if
they cannot be explained physiologically or psychologically. I really
believe that there are other forces that gives us these screwing ways of
behavior. Believe you me, I don't know how you feel but until somebody can
prove to me otherwise, these are my beliefs. Okay, well let me tell you
when I when I happen to feel that there are people that act strange and
I'm not talking a strange clear gay, that type of thing, they are really
violent people. One of the things is, is to try to get help for the people.
If it's psychological or if it's physiological because of a brain tumor
or various things like that. I don't feel that I'm qualified to be able to
deal with the person. I believe. I have seen it in action that certain
people can talk people into care well or other of us cannot. You know,
it's up to the individual to know what he wants to do. But if I see
violent people that I really feel are violent, unfortunately, society has
given us a set of laws by which we are called either standard or deviant
behavior. I don't deal with deviant people, frankly speaking, I feel that
law provides a mechanism to take care of people like that. But in my own
belief that somebody tells me, oh, he just went berserk last night's time
via Bolado. It either has to be because he was either on something or
that's just his behavior and he has now become a violent person. However,
at the root cause of everything, something is causing it. This is what I
sincerely believe you're talking about being on something. And I noticed
that there's one herb down there that you haven't shown us yet. It's a
very dangerous herb and it's an old Aztec herb. Um, and uh, it's something
that is quite a beautiful herb. But I hope that uh, you don't
misunderstand that by our demonstration of it both here and with pictures
uh that we feel that this is something that should be in everybody's home
kit. This was used by the Aztecs as an anesthetic when they performed
operations. When they stitched up lacerations, when they had to alter the
consciousness of someone who was undergoing treatment. It's not too useful
today.
You all know it right. Jimson weed. I wanted to um, to kind of make some
comparison since I've been making comparisons all along. For example. Uh
now we have very sophisticated equipment within a Western medicine. But
I'm not making a plea for people to get involved in and herbs and and
practices that maybe you are wary of. Or maybe you are frightened of. Or
maybe you feel you don't understand enough of. Okay. But I am saying
though that most of the things that have been handed down for thousands of
years have worked, especially if you find a person that or persons that
does know what he is doing. Some of the very primitive things are now
coming back into the fold of medicine itself. One of the tracking systems
that we had. And even when I was a little girl, I had the habit of going
out into the fields by my home And I used to eat a lot of chatter as a
real tiny little tomato like things and tomatillos which are little
tomatoes and some of these wild berries that grow out here. And I was just
delighted to see this because I hadn't seen them since I was a little girl.
They no longer go around Tucson. There's too many houses around there via
chattels. And tomatillos gave you a constipation you never wish you had.
And I remember my aunt used to tell me oh my God she's been in the
machado's or tomato Mateos again. And naturally here came castor oils to
unplug me. Believe you me. However if there was an impact mint or diarrhea
we did have a tracking system and that was we used to take olive oil with
a little piece of bluey and melted and give it to the child. If the child
could pass it out in his ball movement, we know he didn't have an impact
mint. If it remained within the body came Castor oil time. Believe you me
or going to the curandera to get your to get your spine pulled and the
impact mint more or less identified. That is one of the tracking systems.
Now we have more sophisticated barium enemas and all these G. I. Series
that you're given. But ours was primitive. But it worked. The other one is
that now there is a doctor who very recently wrote a big article on
diarrhea and the treatment of diarrhea. Okay many, many years ago as far
back as my grandmother and my my mother in law and we were treating
diarrhea the same way that this doctor has now written a book about. We
always believed that if that was a bacteria in there, you got rid of it.
You don't give ample gel or DiGel or every other kind of gel to contain
the diarrhea. You clean up the system first and then you give something to
take care of the hurt muscles in the stomach. And this was happening
before this doctor and I was born. So you see some of our systems have
been working. Another herb that grows along here that was used very much
for that was for me to uh did you ever gather your own or do you go to the
pharmacist to buy that? Well we used to get our own. It used to grow wild
all along Simpson Simpson Street and along the railroad tracks. And for me
to is just like weak. You wait until it dries, you pick it up and you hit
it against a clean cloth and all the red little uh like wheat germs fall.
And that is used once it is wet, you can make it into a tea by soaking it
in water. It develops a kind of a slimy feeling and it really cleans out
the intestine. It really does. It is also used as a as a kool Aid. A
refreshing teeth to bring about coolness to the body without really
involving yourself with a lot of uh saccharin and all this other good
stuff that is now put into food.
Mhm. Something that you and I have talked about is the fact that there's
been a lot of publicity given lately Uh to an herb that killed two babies.
Uh The herb was identified actually was in the death of one child and in
the illness of another. Um The particular herb is called Sin Nishio. Have
you ever heard of Cynthia being used on purpose for curing internally? Not
in Arizona. Believe you me if those two deaths of the of the Children have
occurred, I believe it was because of the mistake of the person that ship
the herbs to Arizona. Because bordeaux lova and Sin issues are not one of
the things that is predominantly used by the mexican american family. It
is not, it is very very rarely used. So whatever happened, it was an
unfortunate incident. But the mistake was not made by the parent. The
mistake was made by the person that shipped the herbs to Arizona with
warning. The druggist really what he was putting on his shelves, he simply
got the wrong stuff. Uh Has this ever been known that scientifically
prepared pills and intravenous solutions have been mislabeled? Yes,
there's just a case up in new york or some nurses were convicted and
sentenced but also Western medicine. Many times we have severe our
reactions to antibiotics, especially penicillin. Some people have severe
reactions. Some people have severe reactions to some of the prescribed
drugs. And I guess what I am saying is that all other medicinal herbs
should not suffer. Those that have been proven and are good should not
suffer because of the bad publicity that was given this case of waddle
over and send ASIO. Otherwise we would be saying why penicillin of the
market because various people have gotten severe reactions to it. So I
don't think it's fair. The track record of most of these drugs have been
good. But my advice is you know what you're taking and the keys, most of
them are very safe. Minty is used a lot cinnamon is used a lot uh Tanzania
is used a lot camomile to Europeans. Sarko is used a lot. All of these are
safe things they really are. But if you are in let's say in doubt about
what you're taking don't take it. I wish I could say the same advice for
for the kids that combined drugs with alcohol and many of the prescribed
medicines. But you know that's kind of hard to do since it's so prevailing
among us. But one of the things that that I really feel is that part of
the herbal healing deals with dealing with people, the laying of hands on
people being very genuinely concerned with what has happened to that
person is the next human being right next to you. And I think that that's
50% of the healing process. Unfortunately nowadays we're so much in a
hurry to do so many things and it's a faster pace of life that even in our
own clinics we just don't spend enough time with people. And what we have
taken care of physiologically many times comes back to us as a
psychological will because we don't have the time to spend with people. I
would say that home remedies allows you the luxury uh fixing that cup of
tea, listening to problems and and really get involved in home nursing by
following instructions and and looking at what is happening to your child
and really getting yourself involved nowadays we seem to be too busy to
listen to human beings. Okay. I think this is about all that we wanted to
say in an organized kind of way. Are there perhaps questions and if you
ask them, would you stand up and ask them clearly? Because as you know the
acoustics uh here are difficult.
Oh no,
you have to do this. She
named some of these are just these are spinach. I
have got this fine
uh dr pay Alvarez Gonzalez. I don't think I have. There we go in your
pocket. Mhm. Yeah. Where was the lady? There you go. Good. I'm thinking
about specific herbs, you know for certain ailments. And at one time I
went to a man who got herbs and what I'm thinking about right now is
stabbing. Is there something like that? Is there any special herb is
supposed to be good for something like that. You still know to get? Hey
diabetes.
Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm,
diabetes
as a disease has been known and described for thousands of years. But
exactly what is wrong in the body has been known only recently. In fact,
knowledge is increasing every day. We used to think it was simple lack of
insulin uh that the pancreas was not producing. We know that uh the
chemistry and the body is far more complicated. So that although at one
time there were herbs and you will see herbs upstairs labeled. This is
used for diabetes. Today. We no longer recommend that this herb will do
any good to cure or uh in any way alleviate the condition. It's
interesting simply from an historical point of view, but I think google
mecca is what's described as being good for diabetes and it is not uh
today uh
anything really that you can do is to go to the doctor and he will help
you control the disease. But there's no herb for it. There was a mention
of one herb also that they were studying uh for diabetes. And believe you
me as the strangest place in some so far removed from it. They said it
grows wild in Louisiana but I cannot remember the neighborhood that they
were testing to see what properties it had because it was very good for
diabetes. But at this time I really couldn't tell you the name of it. I
would have to look into my notes of many of the things that I've acquired
and like I say it's still under study the same. The same thing is true of
cancer. Cancer is a word that used to be applied to any kind of skin
lesion. So if you look in her books, you will find many, many herbs that
are recommended. This is good for cancer. As a matter of fact, this is
good only for treating a superficial skin condition. Um uh
as yet we have no herb that can be used for such a serious uh kind of
disease. Most of the herbs that we find so useful that have continued to
be used are really for treatment of symptoms. They will treat fevers, they
will treat diarrhea says they will treat uh discomforts
of what kind or another. But they are not known uh to get at the root of a
serious change in the body physiology or chemistry. You had a question
uh mm hmm, serve under That is when people, what we would call, what we
know now more modern lee is osteopathic medicine. She wanted to know what
I meant by saying laying of the hands on healing and healing practices. Uh
much of the laying of the hands that is practiced nowadays is a lot of
what the osteopaths does really. And I couldn't let us uh for stomach
problems for impetuous what we call impact mints within the stomach uh
things that are embedded within our stomach that we cannot pass through a
bowel movement or by vomiting. Much of this is a tracking system that they
have, They actually lay your hands on you. I wish I could demonstrate if I
had a smaller child of some of the things that are done here and they lay
your hands on you. The lady that that I go to who is about 80 some years
old. Uh My daughter got very, very sick and actually she was suffering
from a piece of turkey that had spoiled and she had eaten diarrhea,
vomiting and stomach cramps and I took her to ST mary's hospital. I also
took her to our own doctor. And thank God we had a doctor that really
believes in meshing uh some of the things that we practice at home with
what uh Western medicine also does and he says take her to your code in
there because I gave her some stuff for the vomiting. But she's still
suffering from that pain and she says try this and if not too much take
her to the curandera. I did take her to the curandera and she says lie
down, she began with feeling her nerves. Then she began by going down the
spine and pulling on the spine. And there are also certain exercises that
they actually get involved with you in. And she says don't laugh, it might
be embarrassing, but you need to pass your air as well as bert. And once
she started uh doing her hands on her back. My daughter started, you know
, she says oh your breath is foul smelling, you really have something
impacted within the system. So she started from the spine way down to here
she started pulling on her skin to ananda Lespinasse. So we call it
cracking of the spine and that's where your nervous system comes down and
believe you, me and my daughter was up in three days no more diarrhea, no
more vomiting and no more stomach cramps.
It occurs to me uh that I should if you have interest in these topics and
you couldn't hear well and you couldn't connect the kinds of things that
were said. I did write a dictionary and they are in them. And on the one
hand I think oh dear, I shouldn't be tooting my horn. And on the other
hand I think but you do probably want this information and you can get
this probably from any bookstore. It's called Southwestern mexican
dictionary, Southwestern Medical Dictionary. And it is in spanish and in
english and it was uh collected at the neighborhood health center where
Julio Soto is now in charge of community relations. And I worked with the
people, they're getting the words and finding out what they meant.
We'll see what
this one this book is here. This medicine Alice Comic con Planters. Okay
um Dr p Alvarez Gonzalez. It's printed in Mexico I think it's out of print.
But if you do go to Mexico, there are various books of this type that you
can get. One lady asked me if I believed in the modern era. The era is the
fontanel soft spot right here when a baby is born. Definitely. I do and
like I say that we think of of illnesses both in a hot and cold sense when
when I go to a doctor and I've had seven Children, the doctor always used
to touch my child soft spot here and go like that. Also, we do not pick up
the madeira by doing this because we believe that your, you heard their
palate up here. We don't do that. And I do this for all my kids and my
grandchildren. When I felt that the fontanel soft spot was low, I knew
that they were dehydrated. But I not only believe in in refurbishing the
body inwardly by bringing liquids into the body, but we also do it on the
outside. And one of the things that I would do is I would take a warm uh
tepid water from the, from the spigot. And I would hold the baby upside
down and just let the water suction the fontanel soft spot to the level
and also start giving it a lot of liquids because some of them are uh some
of the damage is done through dehydration, but I also believe that some of
the damage is done when the child has suffered a sharp blow, either by
falling or getting hit and that is part of one of our very deep rooted
beliefs. I don't care if people say you guys are crazy or whatever. But
what I am saying is as long as you accept our beliefs, I'm not asking you
to practice it just to try and understand it. Okay. There is nothing he
said. You
you uh,
or a sharp blow to the hair is sometimes when the baby is sucking on the
bottle and you pull it out, there are soft spot also is, is jolted. It's
sharp jolts or things like that. And that is if you go into a home and you
see, especially in, in some of the mexican american Yaki homes. When you
see a child that has salt right here, it's our own form of cradle cap.
Okay, what we use the salt for is usually just as a device to see that the
baby's fontanel sauce but is really pulsing and when the baby soft spot is
falling, you get the yellow matter witchy, the baby is droopy. He can't
nurse, right? And we really believe that this affects the palette.
Therefore to us, it is a no, no. When the doctor pushes up the palette,
we'd rather do it by suction of the water. There's an old japanese saying
that goes this way, play and take medicine. I think that most people have
learned to hedge their bets to try everything. And uh those of you who are
here for credit either with the Arizona Medical Association or the Arizona
nurses Association. I hope you've been listening very hard to cures. That
sound exotic. One of the kinds of things that we've been trying to
emphasize is that they're going to be practiced. People are going to do
them. If you laugh at them then they'll go away and you won't see them. Uh
if you combine them with the therapy that you recommend, uh you're even
more likely to get people will um our knowledge of physiology, of, path of
physiology, of biochemistry today is not so advanced uh that we are not
changing our minds. A witness. What mrs Soto was saying about diarrhea. We
used to try to stop it with law marvel. Nowadays we say for heaven's sakes
don't uh and the old idea of administering a cathartic with diarrhea is
being practiced again. We don't know how many of these other things might
be. We are concerned that Children with my era won't be seen by the doctor.
Uh I'm very sure that they will be seen by the doctor but uh we want both
kinds of treatments. We want the child to be safe in a mother who is
concerned and who is confident that what she knows how to do will help and
then we'll just further help her with other things not to supplant them
but to add to them. Okay,
okay, well I would like to say in summing up my presentation is that
margarita has studied a lot of these things margarita and I have
communicated for many years and I say that I think that uh in a sense
we're a good combination as a person who has lived it and as a person who
has studied a combining forces to develop better understanding as one
human being to another. Uh Let's let us be very frank and accepting the
fact that not everything works even in modern medicine. But I think that
the track record of the things that have been used by the mexican american
and the indians have a very good track record. And therefore I would say
that these are things if if people are willing to ask questions because
they're generally wanting to know I think it's good and usually we can
tell what side you're coming from. Okay thank you.
The topic this afternoon
is Navajo healing and psychiatry we have with us. MS F. Alu Yossi who is
the director of the Rough Rock demonstration school which includes the
only existing training school for medicine men. We also have Doctor robert
Bergman. It was former Chief of mental health with the U. S. Indian health
service and former faculty member of the Navajo mental health program.
They'll take over now. Um And again I request that you please be quiet.
It's hard to hear and
try not to move around a lot And if people come through and are noisy,
will you just please turn to them and ask them to be quiet too. Maybe we
can. Oh here and be able to participated in this topic. Thanks.
Good afternoon. Can you hear? I know that my voice is really stuff and
it's really hard to hear. But uh I'll try to speak loud as I as much as I
can.
She described. The rough rock was one of the first school which was
established and defined as one of the indian community control school.
Probably this means most of the total operation of the school. It's under
control by the community through the school through their elected school
board members every week. And this is unlike most of the school systems in
the United States. But in order to have an entire control by the indian
people, it is almost necessary or demand to have the school board meet
weekly to discuss the total program. The problems, different issues to
address people who come across and questioning the indian education in
this system. We serve students from preschool age through college level.
One of the programs is the Navajo Medicine Men program.
The Navajo Medicine Man program is funded by the National Institute of
Mental Health.
It is hard sometimes to visualize exactly what mm and how the program is
described. But later part of our discussion that we will go into a little
bit more
just this year, we were able to secure enough fund and be able to have
another contract from public health services to have our own clinic,
having a medicine man training within the control school. It was something
special. But this year we were able to have our own clinic which is also
under our jurisdiction, meaning that uh anglo doctor is able to work with
a medicine man side by side within a community.
I am another health profession, but I'm discipline and administrator. But
I will touch on some of the frustrations that we often go through by
security funds. Since the community control is pretty much designed by the
people within the community, that it is almost impossible to limit
yourself as administrated into eight our job, but some of my jobs or my
responsibility
is to provide services within that community. The Children's parents and
grandparents of that community.
Yeah, I think before I got any further whether you Canada you can fully
understand this or not. But one must remember that being the indian as an
individual,
there is a canopy of governmental system, that one must live throughout
their life. Many that there is a system that
restricts one individuals
that is going to say the land is not theirs. The education is not theirs,
whatever belongs to them. It's not theirs. But it's always, there is a
limitation, there's restrictions that one must face.
But since Rough rock community was able to determine their own educational
needs and be able to design and community being able to be a part of
designing their own curriculum. This one is possible and there were very
few who could be able to do in both culturally culturally uh programs
I think to be in control of one's life to make decisions and achieve self
set goals. Our corner stores of natural health. Generally speaking, the
ending is controlled. He doesn't control his own life. Some area of
government controls his education.
It means even at 50 65 or 70, the Indian has a governmental Guardian to
take care of him. So communities like rough rock where the people have
tried to take control of many institutions that are supposed to serve them
are very rare. Even more unusual. Usual is the fact that people have
succeeded. What they have tried to do. They control their own school.
Mhm. Every native american experiences severe stresses in trying to
integrate this culture was a dominant culture.
For some stress is so severe, it at least to alcoholism and suicide and
other forms of physical or incited violence.
Often what happened is the individual is attached to aspects of anglo
society. Then he feels that his attraction betrayed his indigenous, he can
bring the two cultures together. This is one of the purposes of Rough Rock.
Try to point out and I don't know if this is the, this might be the best
definition but bi cultural bilingual, bilateral by cognitive is
implemented within the program, not only in an academic aspects, but as
well as in the medicine man training. So the medicine man can bring just
as much percentage of the culture within the curriculum as the regular
american textbooks or regular system of education. Here we try to point
out their own indian problems within the education as well as in the
health. So a child is being able to,
we'll be able to coat cope with both societies. From a from the beginning
we do have ending people in various physicians to help one counselor, one
angler counselor with three councilors who are able to bring both
Both definitions within one child's life. This is pretty hard to do many
times, but we hope that catching at the earliest stages of it and then
individuals might be able to cope their own problems, their own uniqueness
later on in life.
I think many times we naturally something as vital and a lot as medicine
man will be criticized by many Anglos who will never understand the magic
that poetry, their visions are their cures at the same time, it is
important for interested Anglos not to romanticize either the heart or the
traditional indian.
It is important to recognize that what they, what they are caring is
beautiful is useful and worthwhile and variable to both the indian
community and the world outside.
Can you hear me?
Mhm. It is almost as important for us to know that tradition is not dying
out. The Navajo religion is Even stronger now than 10 years ago and it is
still alive and the role that roof rack has played in interrogating inter
grading the medicine man into the school system and in preventing the
details of Navajo cannot be overestimated when the language and the
culture died, that people die. Let's talk about what a medicine man is.
The word medicine man is an angler word to most Anglos. It means something
like a witch doctor. Well, another word for what most of you call a
medicine man is hot or a singer. Hi talking mean doesn't translate to
medicine man. I taught him as a singer. If the early settlers of the west
or more knowledge knowledgeable themselves, they probably would have
translated the word as Chandler because that's what karate is a singer,
Chandler of the holy songs and the holy words we have no written by them.
Our bible is care in the heads of our neutrality who sends the words that
hold our culture together.
People say, well, how can you make a medicine and medicine and be part of
your educational institution? It is like a priest in a catholic school.
Yes and no, because the price is just a religious leader, sometimes an
angle of religious leader is almost a psychiatrist and sometimes he is an
arbitrator and now that is uh now and then he's a visionary.
Yeah, but the medicine man is a psychiatrist, he's a healer. He's a
visionary. He's a holy and religious man as well. The endless society
fragments it's healings into specialties. What the medicine man not only
need treats the total the total person, but he's a total person. He is our
religious leader, he's our psychiatrist, he is our doctor.
But he is all is our secular arbitrator.
He is respected and a wise leader. His presence alone without any words
can solve problems. And this is even true when the medicine man's own
personal and daily life shows him to be an ordinary person himself. In
prehistory, the holy people use the first people have tried to accomplish
their objectives today. They still use people, those people that are open
to them. You see our school has to stress the culture and our roots in the
past and interrogate interrogate them into the present. The small amount
of a small amount provided by the government to support these curious.
Mhm Of harmony is 75 a year. Mhm. The heart only knows the relationship of
each man to the land and the universe. Yeah. The beauty of the are their
vision and the heritage is beyond description For this beauty. The
government allows 75,000 a year. This supports six teachers and 12 and
trainees
during the time between rituals and the family and the patient is
informally counseled by the medicine man. He may use advice and a variety
of subjects. The medicine man's practice and reputation is protected by
the novel cultural method of separating diagnosed and healing. Don't lose
situation. The crystal geyser or hand trembler decides what is wrong with
the patient and what ceremony will cure him. What is wrong with the
patient? What is wrong with? The patient is determined with a hand
trembler. Mm. The medicine man performs the same morning. The way he is
supposed to is that sickness continues actually the ceremony and then
obviously got knows is wrong. Then the process begins all over again.
The ceremonies are individualized in the sense that the family will be
able to specify which send painted, they want the medicine man to use.
This is a choice within the ceremonial range to choose from. The form of
the ceremony is set by elements within can be changed just away. The hymns
and sermons can be changed in sunday in a christian church. A medicine man
also may have his own preference and prejudice. He may use or refuse to
use a certain scent painting because he has found it out to be extremely
powerful.
Mhm. So generally speaking anglo doctors treat symptoms but so do now the
whole medicine man, they give you a remedy to drink or run up on him. It's
a her to go away. But it comes back and you do it again
like aspirin sooner or later, the symptoms is gone. But if it doesn't, you
go to the clinic. If that doesn't work. You combat to the medicine man.
Yeah. Mhm. There's ceremonies are for families as much as for patient. The
ceremony gives everybody something to do. So they don't feel guilty or
helpless about the patient's illness. And while the patient is being
treated, his family is praying with him and for him, his friends, the
patient can be, can see visible proof how much all of his people love him
, how much they want him to recover how much they care how far away they
come from. Just to make him feel better. The family works hard to make the
ceremony just right. They pay a good deal of money. They spend a lot of
time and effort to cure the patient. They don't have to feel guilty
anymore about some of those bad thoughts they had about that person. They
are really trying to make him get better and he usually does.
Yeah. Everything that is done and used in the ceremony has deep symbolism
connected with it. The first Hogan was made of turquoise squat shell
rainbow does it took on today in some broccoli. The same.
The plan handed down by the holy people was a plan for the Navajo people,
the Navajo temple. Then I will people live in the temple daily and it is
transferred by their prayers and their belief, the whole gun, the songs,
the same painting every physical action in the ceremony are symbolic and
all have deep meaning to the people.
The young girl becomes changing woman during her kennel to the people tour
the underworld in evil ways. Men become gods and the way in participating
in Navajo ceremony, you become something more than you are. You pull
yourself out of a mundane existence and grow divine.
It will be very convenient to say that Navajo healing is the same thing as
psychological care, but it isn't. How can you explain way There was a
specific some violence and sand mornings are used to fight specific
illness.
You can say that the singer manipulates, stick part of the body through
psychological symbolism
and curious a patient. But each time the singer uses the same symbolism.
The angle psychiatrist helps the patient relief, his conflicts by going
back to a specific point in a patient's life to resolve a problem. The
medicine man helps his patient relief, his conflicts in a universe
conflict.
The patient vigor victoriously
in metaphor becomes healthy in life. The singer takes the patient and his
family and friends back and forth from daily life to myth. We call it
history from the physical universe to the universe of the mind, from the
external world to the eternal body. They go back and forth until the
intellectual emotional distinctions between these areas are erased. Then
the patient becomes the victor. Either you understand it or you don't, if
you want to get deeper into into it from the anglo point of view.
Ask dr Bergman,
I've
noticed that there's some people here who know her so I can't use the line
that I plan to about Eloise which was that she was a figment of super
soakers imagination. Uh huh. Eloise exists under where she is that she's
not here And uh any disorganization to death, lou and I are suffering are
strictly strictly Eloise's fault because we've had to divide up between
the two of us. The things we thought Eloise was going to say,
Eloise despite her uh her good dutch name is Navajo. Uh since she's not
here, I'll talk about her.
It's interesting where the name comes from, it comes from her husband Jack
of course. But besides that uh when Jack's father went to their Hope and
Mission School uh which was uh a dutch reformed institution, his name now
Cici it was hard for the missionaries and the teachers too to say. So they
said uh it's not a it's not a good american name. Now if she she will
never be a name that americans can get ahead with what you need is a good
american name like de Groat and that's where that comes from. Um
the,
mm hmm. Mhm.
The only way that I remain at all comfortable talking about indian
medicine a since it's rather late in the day for a white person to be
talking about indian medicine is from the point of view of what white
people can learn from indian medicine, which I think is quite a lot mm I
was giving the same talk or more or less a couple of nights ago somewhere
else. And I discovered when I got there that it had been built as native
american contributions to non indian medicine and what it should be built
is as is there should have been as contributions that should have been
made by native american medicine too. Non indian medicine.
Um some sometimes non indians are very smug when it comes to indians and
think that all the learning has to go the other way. Sometimes they learn.
There's a nice story about a man that was had come from texas and was
touring around the Navajo reservation and saw an old Navajo man sitting
out in front of his hill gun and it was such a pretty place and God looks
sort of interesting. The tourists stopped to talk to the old man and
he converse with him for a little while and then he said how big is your
land here? How much is this? Is your land? Never a man said well the whole
reservation is my land terry said you know what I mean? Your your land and
the party is just yours. He said well we don't really think of it exactly
like that. The part that most people consider to be mine starts over there
way over there at that hill and it goes way over the other hill, way over
the other the other fire, distant point. And so it's pretty big and Texans.
It big. Why? My land in texas is so big that I can get in my car first
thing in the morning and drive all day. Any direction I want to at the end
of the day, I'm still on my own land. Number two man said I used to have a
car just exactly like that.
The
mhm. About 12 years ago when I first went to the Navajo reservation. Mm
hmm. The first Navajo medicine man I met with a man who is called in
english was called an english thomas Large whiskers uh is um, I don't know
where the thomas came from, but large whiskey was a literal translation or
more or less so of his Navajo descriptive name. Devon saucy saucy. It's
still not saying it right. Um
mm hmm. On his social security card it said thomas Hell whiskers. On his
indian health service record. It's that thomas, large whiskers. Uh these
things get a little confused. There was another lady I knew whose name was
Silver headbands daughter. Uh, and she appeared on her health records. His
silver hb daughter. Uh
the way I met him was that Sophie Thompson and Navajo social worker. And I
were looking up some people who had been studied by jerry levy an
anthropologist a few years earlier, jerry had traced down the number of
Navajo people who had been in various mental hospitals and had interviewed
them and interviewed their families to learn something about what form
various mental illnesses seem to take among none of his. I was interested
in going to see them to see what had happened to them over a period of
time to see how they had made out what was going on with them. One of them
was a woman, probably one of the most disturbed of the group was a woman
who had been in three different mental hospitals diagnosed as chronically
schizophrenic. She had not been, according to the records of the hospitals
has not improved much during any of her hospitalizations. We looked,
looked up her family. Sophie managed to find her father and the father
went when Sophie found him said, I'm not sure that you want to to see my
daughter anymore because she's not sick anymore. And we said that if she
wasn't sick anymore. Uh, we were particularly interested in seeing her. So
we went out to visit her and spent the day and indeed, I had never seen
her when she was crazy, but she was certainly not crazy the day. We were
with her and she was in a very business like and fairly cheerful manner,
taking care of my Children and some sheep and a number of chores around
the house and was busy and productive and relatively content. Uh, yeah,
ultimately, when she had time to talk with us in the midst of all our
business. Uh, we asked her what had happened and she told us that after a
great many different attempts to cure various kinds, she had been referred
to uh Mr Lawrence Whiskers by a Navajo diagnose station. And one of the
first things that she told me that impressed me about this man was that uh
huh she had gone to see him at his home. She knew perfectly well that it
wasn't customary for him to perform a major ceremony at his home, but that
he had to come to her. But she was so anxious. Her mother, I think more
than she was so anxious to get help immediately that they tried to insist
that he do something for her right then. And there he
I told them she said that that was a silly idea because she had become ill
at home among her family. She would have to live at home among her family
after she got well and therefore it was at home among her family that she
would have to recover. Which was an idea which was then gaining a little
bit of standing among american psychiatrists
and which I still feel is an extremely valid one, which has been part of
Navajo medicine all along. When we managed to look up mr large whiskers,
so I want to meet after this, I told him that I wanted to hire him to be a
consultant to our indian health service mental health program. I told him
that I thought that he and I were interested in some of the same kinds of
illnesses and I could learn from him if he would be willing to teach me.
He said he wasn't sure. He said that he couldn't imagine what it was that
I had learned from books. He said he'd never learned anything from a book
he learned from his grandfather's. Uh He said he didn't know what they had
in books that I would read. He said the most important thing that his
grandfather taught him about mental illness was that there's a part of the
mind that people don't know about which contains their real thoughts that
is out of their awareness and has a powerful effect on whether they remain
well, they become ill. I said I'd heard about that. That that was in our
books and he was mildly pleased to hear it. Uh Just for fun working out
when he had begun his training, he was when I met him 100 and one years
old. Uh
Mhm. Little subtraction and addition showed that uh he had learned about
the unconscious about seven or eight years before Freud published studies
ministerial
um
couple more things about mr large whiskers may give the flavor of what
yeah, some Navajo medicine men are like. Um
Mhm. The yeah, the reason that he went into The business of being a
medicine man was that when he was 15 or 16 years old, he was driving a
wagon and he was on the edge of a very deep a royal and somehow or another
managed to drive the wagon into the royal, thus breaking his leg in those
days. They were next to no non indian physicians around the reservation,
nobody went to the ones that were and there were a Navajo men who knew how
to set serious fractures. Which which is what he had sustained. In fact,
they're still there. Navajo men who know how to fix serious fractures. But
they don't do it very often anymore because they don't have X rays and
they know that an X ray machine is a very handy gadget to have uh when
you're reducing the fracture anyhow. Uh The in spite of not having X ray,
that leg was fixed up pretty well. One could see in many years later that
the leg had been very badly broken, but it heals pretty well very well
considering that it had been done without some of the gadgets that we
worked with today. The man that fixed.
Yeah, it fixed the the fracture. I told mr large whiskers that he'd better
have a ceremony and that he had better see a different medicine man for
that. He said the reason for that was that he had at least momentarily
been out of his mind to drive his wagon into the arroyo and
uh large whiskers angrily denied it. He said it was an accident. He hadn't
done it on purpose and the medicine men said nonsense, there was something
going on inside him that made him do it. And he became so fascinated with
the notion of unconscious intention that he decided to go into the
business which I liked because it was something rather akin to that made
me decide to go into the business and my own culture. Um
at the time that Neil armstrong, I guess that's the right guy, took the
small step for a man and the giant step for mankind on the moon. Uh a
magazine writer and I have to be spending some time visiting with mr large
whiskers. And the writer was very interested in the possibility that he
would be the person to tell this old medicine man that a human being, it
landed on the moon, something that wasn't very impressive to the writer.
Um In fact he was and he was rather disappointed in that the old man
didn't seem to get too excited about it. The writer said, well what do you
think of that? Are you surprised? He said no, there's nothing so foolish,
expensive or dangerous that white people won't do it.
Um
I had had some contact with a number of people like uh mr large whiskers
because we hired them as consultants. This was hard to do it first because
people in the uh In the contracting office in the Indian Health Service
would say things like how can we pay $100 consultant fee to a man who
thumb printed the contract. But they did and we learned a lot from them
also had the privilege of being involved in the medicine man program at
school. Um
The way that happened was that when it began the school, I don't mean they
reference school with Medicine Man school was something that the school
board wanted very much to do and they managed to do in a rather
tiny way on a shoestring that money they sneaked out of various other
parts of their budget, a healthy practice that s lu says can no longer be
done in the current auditing conditions. But obviously more money had had
to be found. And the school which was then largely funded by Ohio applied
to the oyo branch of No for a grant to run this program And the Oyo Health
people said that they really weren't interested in medicine men, they were
interested in storefront clinics. Well the nearest store front to rough
rock is about 130 miles I suppose. So that didn't go over at which point I
began looking around and I m. H. To try to find somebody who would be
receptive to such a grant. And I think greatly to the credit of the
courage. And I am h we found some people who were interested though there
committee was a little nervous about the thing when they came out to do
the original site visit. Uh, the question they kept asking was how can a
program which promotes superstition promote mental health and I would
become terribly excited and upset and angry when people ask that question.
The medicine men fortunately were much calmer than I and dealt with it in
a reasonable way and ultimately were convincing enough that the thing was
funded. We were terribly afraid in the first few years of the program that
, uh, it would explode all over some congressmen or senators office and
he'd get up and pursuing your that you have to be the principal agent and
pursuing your health, that you cannot leave yourself in the hands of
others. And to pursue the tested assumption that somebody knows better
than you what's okay for you. We don't know very much in spite of all the
years and In spite of the fact that we have increased one's lifespan to 70
years. I'm not so sure that I'd be willing to comment on the quality of of
that life. I think that you're each responsible in some way for keeping
yourself healthy. I think that to abandon that faith into the hands of
others
is probably not healthy. I think the doctors cannot do for you, anything
that you're unwilling to do for yourself and that to allow them the
privilege of somehow doing it to you only emphasizes their ability and
your inability and that renders you weak, helpless and powerless.
I'd like to pursue this matter of the importance of interpersonal
relationships in maintaining health or are preventing illness. I think
this is something that is more important in some cultures than in others
and to go to the other end of the table to ask uhh Miss Yancy. Now there's
a lot of
of ritual and so on that goes on in traditional Navajo life, would you say
some things about how this is important or isn't important in maintaining
health and something about interpersonal relationships? If they are
factors? Mhm. Mhm. I don't quite understand your question but and are
there any specific areas of the stages?
Well, let's take I guess I asked sort of a two part question, suppose if
we're considering ways to stay healthy and look at how, looking at how
this differs From one culture to another. Are there any things in Navajo
culture which are important in maintaining good health that you defined
and talked about earlier? Are any of the rituals important? For example.Um