WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Artist Anne Festival

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Smart

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this morning.

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Mhm. We will be talking about native
american healing.

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Dr Hammerschlag will be making a few
announcements concerning taping and

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pictures.

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So please refrain until he's explained
to you what the situation will be.

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There are some seats scattered around through the audience. If those of

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you who are sitting around the edges
want to come in,

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can we get are you ready? All right. I
will introduce to you dr Carl

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Hammerschlag, He is the director of
psychiatry at phoenix India in the

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hospital medical center and a mental
health consultant for the phoenix

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area indian Health Service. He will
introduce the other participants and

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run the program for you this morning.
Um The sound in this room might be a

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little problem. If you will all please
be quiet. I think then all of us

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will be able to hear.

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Thank you.

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All right.

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Excuse the delay. There's a certain
arrangements have to be made about the

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taping and filming of this. So that's
what's going on right now,

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forgive us. And before you take
pictures please, uh before you take

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pictures please. Uh Part of the
controversy this morning has to do with

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filming and taping. Can you hear me
reasonably well? What it is that

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happens here between

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Mr dalton Mr Tal have to and I and you
takes place at a single moment in

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time. Something between us That is
more than simply a lecture. Uh I'll

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share with you some feelings of soul
and spirit about what we do and what

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they do and what they're about. Uh
what happens after this with regard to

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tape, recordings and pictures, we have
no control over to record this is

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to record an event that they wish to
stand by itself and since they have

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no control over what happens
afterwards or to whom it will be shown or

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what will be said and whether it will
be seen in or out of context and the

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nature of the understanding of those
who will view it has always been an

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issue. Our preference would be that
other than the orchestra, the

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foundations visual record that they
will make on videotape, that you not

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record this. And if you would like to
take pictures afterwards that you

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asked for permission to do so, uh, I
hope I've said that clearly I feel

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peculiarly about that because it's
important two, you simply understand

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where we come from. We're going to
begin and I will introduce to you very

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soon that the people who are sitting
at my side, none of this is prepared.

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We will all speak from the heart and
as a result we may sacrifice what

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will be clarity, at least for
spontaneity. This morning, I will serve

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simply to introduce the panelists for
traditional native american healers

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, their arm, innocent men. And they
will tell you a little bit about what

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they do and who they are and how they
do it. And I wish only to share with

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you in my introductory remarks some
framework so that you will understand

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there are many people who can heal, I
trust that comes as no great

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surprise to you. The comments that we
will make may be controversial, but

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then this meeting is probably
controversial and you're welcome to disagree

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with the kinds of things you here and
we're welcome to talk about them.

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Many people can heal one does not need
paper credentials on the wall too,

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prove that you can be affected. It is
my strong personal belief that

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people get well on the basis of
whether or not they believe in the system

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by which you practice and because of
the personal qualities of the

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individual who's doing the treatment
and those are crucial variables in

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healing. We live in contemporary
Western society, in a medical situation

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which people come to doctors where
they are essentially placed in their

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hands. In a situation that is
essentially unequal it's an inequality that

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is perpetuated by doctors as well as
patients. It's important, I think, to

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understand that people are responsible
for their own healing to place or

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abandon yourself into the hands of
others to do it to you Takes one out of

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the healing process. I think the
doctors are trained to do so that we keep

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a therapeutic distance from patients,
that it's important not to become

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too involved and it elevates our
mystique the language that we speak, the

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walking two bedsides, the standing
three ft above a lying patient all

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emphasize the disparity between the
healer and the patient. It emphasizes

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in some way, one's ability and the
others neediness and having to come. It

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places the hand by and large the
healing hand in the hands only of the

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position who may not be unwilling to
do so. The fact is that our training

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is well geared to coming and seeing
patients and leaving and seeing quite

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a few,

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that it's important not to become too
intimately involved because people

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come and go. It's important to speak a
very special language that other

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people cannot interpret. So as to
elevate our mystique and it's important

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to be able to define the limits of the
relationship on self.

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People must be involved in their home
healing just like I believe that

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Children must be involved in their own
learning. That all learning takes

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place through a commitment to the
process that the Children themselves

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must be the principal agents in their
own learning and that without it it

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doesn't take place. And the same is
true for healing, that the healer and

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the patient have a contract together
to get well in traditional medicine,

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there's always such a contract one
Because the healer, himself or herself

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feels that whatever power he or she
has comes from a spiritual source,

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that the nature of one's work is done
in combination with, with a

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spiritual guidance that the gift of
healing comes more than just from

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oneself, but from somebody else. An
issue that I think we lose in

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contemporary Western medicine, where
there is a complete infatuation with

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one's own inviolability, in a sense
that we do it alone, a native healer

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will always speak to patients and
spent quite a bit of time in

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contemporary Western medicine. We have
very little time. The fact is that

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when we are stimulated by what by and
large is a profit motive, one has to

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divide 1's time on the basis of its
potential or remuneration. Is it

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worthwhile? That makes it very
difficult perhaps to deliver, in my opinion

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, optimum health care.

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I think that

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we're going to see a change in net
people are going to take responsibility

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for being involved in a very intimate
way with their own healing and that

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what takes place between they and
their doctors, they will have to be an

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equal party too.

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I was going to say some things about,

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I was gonna say a lot of things, we're
going to have a chance to kind of

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talk to each other and ask questions
back and forth. I wanted to provide

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you some kind of a framework by which
I see healing taking place. And I've

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tried to say clearly that people must
be involved in their own healing.

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People get well on the basis of what
they believe and on the personal

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qualities and attributes of their
doctors, their therapists and those are

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the crucial variables um, healing. So
if you believe, and if you like the

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person that you're doing it with, the
likelihood is that you will get well

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, Western medicine is not the only
medicine is practiced. Sometimes the

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practice of medicine takes one away
from the healing process, especially

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when the motives for one's
participation become more involved with an

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equitable use of one's time and the
pursuit of profit. I believe that some

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of the things that you will hear today
will come as a surprise to you,

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some may not what is shared with you
will come from the heart of the

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individuals who will share it with
you. And it is a gift. It's a gift from

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you, from them to you. At my left is

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Mr Bill Dalton who is uhh a
traditional healer originally from my own copy

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on the Hopi reservation who now lives
in White River Arizona. He's

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extremely highly regarded. He is known
in this country and

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and overseas as far west as Hawaii. He
gets invited to go places. He is a

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traditional healer And he's 81 years
old.

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And to his left Mr Herbert L. A. Have
to uh from the movie on the second

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base on the Hopi reservation, a
traditional healer uh and a specialist in

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his own right. And they will share
with you kind of where they come from

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and what they do and how they do it,
their use of herbs, their treatment

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of patients.

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And then we will open the floor to
some discussion and I would like to

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have a chance to kind of come back to
you. I have a feeling that without

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notes and

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and with any forethought ideas that
it's come out perhaps a bit rambled

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and perhaps we can get back to that
again. My name is Carl Hammerschlag

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and I am trained in traditional
Western medicine, having gone to medical

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school in new york at the State
University of new york and postdoctoral

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training at Yale University in New
Haven. I work with american indian

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tribes for which I have some special
responsibility as mental health

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consultant in the states of Arizona
and about a Utah and California with

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that introduction. We will begin

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ladies and gentle.

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Mhm. I'm happy to be here. Give you a
living registration on up.

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We're gathered here to protect.

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I'm going to try and explain on my own
self my experience in healing

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people.

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But first I must take it is a gift.

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I have not learned to swim and or had
gone to any school. There are its

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methods of peace

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I was born as I can. And that's not
what growing up, my grandfather, I had

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mild used to tell me that I have one
of the most skill that no other man

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who will ever have. I can't believe
it.

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But

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but I also we're told that I am not
too start out during this healing

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until I was past middle age making me
a warning that there was

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would be kind of dangerous somewhere
in her life. If I started to get at

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this time, okay, the temptation would
be so great that somewhere I would

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lose my power so under ditch I have
always remembered

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and I was given article to go to go
ahead and worship. Yeah, some of these

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spiritual god that are still existed
in this universe. Some of you people

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don't believe in. No, but it's still
acquisition

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as well as the great creator up above.
Sure, there must be something

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behind it years ago before. And if the
harness all the white men has

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received before any had settled this
country, the method of healing was

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great baking pan greatly upon the
herbs that was given or grown on dessert

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and that's been carried on by some
medicine men. But those things I began

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to disappear. Why

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poor wife, the white doctors began to
step on and in a way of healing and

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so forth, they just about to stump us
down. But now lately they began to

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come and she and began to realize
there is something that is much beyond

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their knowledge. Yes, I would say some
of you young students here you are

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trying to work yourself and become a
doctors or nurses and so forth.

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Urology is coming from the book. My
knowledge is all come from natural

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gift.

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At the present time I am handling a
great deal of all kinds of sickness

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and ailments.

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They come to me and when they do come
to me. The first thing, the method I

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used. I ask questions as how the
ailment is working and where and all this

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and that by the time when he gets
through explaining his elements and so

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forth, something has already told me
and put into my head. This is what's

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wrong with the pushing.

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When you get through with him, this is
the herb to give the patient Joey

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goes on like that. And today it is
hard for me to try to take care of all

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the people that's coming to me. Yeah.
All nationalities, White indian

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jeopardy,

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spanish people as well as your current
people. I couldn't turn it my way.

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It's a gift. And I'm to carry on and
so forth.

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Now your knowledge come from the book.
It wouldn't do to tell. It won't do

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for me to go ahead and tell you just
how I do things with my hat.

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I have no X ray, no nothing of that
sort. Yes, I take bug both hands. I

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have that power.

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I'm looking over you started shooting.
So you're people at the present

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time. I've seen some bad feelings of
among your people. If I concentrate

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on the person long enough, I can tell
you just what's wrong with you. But

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let's leave. We don't. Mhm. These
things. That is a gift.

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And at the present time I'm doing the
bastard camp.

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Um doctor here so far, he's the only
doctor has Mayor has gotten very

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interested in us too. Yeah. And we
feel that we owe him something and we

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like to help him as much as we can. We
have a great respectful. But as I

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say, I cannot tell you what herb we
use. Why? It's because I have made a

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promise to the mother earth that I
will go and use the earth that was put

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on this universe by the great old
creative foot of all mankind. I promise

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that I will not give it away or one
way together. Although I have been

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asked why don't you bring this matter
before the medical society let them

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know that there is such a nerve it up
for cancer which is a great enemy at

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the present time to human beings. I
said that's a good question. Yeah.

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I'll be fool enough to take you or
someone else up in the mountains in the

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desert and tell them there is the
whole also there's another those two

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combined and so it's the best for
cancer and so forth.

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They'll go out and gather and pull up
and everything

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and leave us nothing to go on with
their work. That's one reason we can

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expose nothing.

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But we will take care of as much
element as we can and at the present time

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a doctor or have recognized began to
recognize the matter and give us

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giving us a chance. So my partner
here, he's a bomb technician.

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And that depression time. It's bigger.
Uh huh. An indian doctor to be

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called to the hospital and help out
cheap. We can save some lives.

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As I say it's all types of ailments.
I'm honorable man. Seems like it

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seems to be the worst I even have both
of us have. This is unbelievable.

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When a woman wanted a child, couldn't get a child, they come to us. My

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first work would be safe. Why don't
you get your husband and yourself go

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before the doctor and had thoroughly
examination.

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Let them examine you see which one of
you is not further. Once when they

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go through the procedure

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then they come back to us. Maybe they
said well the ladies network

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there is something wrong. They either
being injured somewhere along their

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line and as causes that or they could
be born. But there's a method. As I

00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:49.986
said, this is the only instrument I
got. How could I have a fixed uh lady

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like that So that they can have a
child. Your dad did. Sometimes there's

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just a slight twist in their room.
Sometimes something else like that. Mhm.

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But without a touch of my hand and how
to do that and give him a certain

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earth. Bless their soul. They'll have
a child.

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No wisdom. No, nothing now at the
present time I'm snowed in by the women.

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Yeah women come to me. You know when
they are ready to have a child or

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something like that instead of going
to the hospital and have their uhh

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examination see how far they do and
all that. They come to me. Sometimes

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the baby is laying on And all they
have to do is take only about five or

00:20:48.660 --> 00:20:51.726
10 minutes returning.

00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:56.506
And when the time comes they don't
have any trouble.

00:20:56.539 --> 00:21:02.947
Just last week, a woman come to me.
She was 12. She started a slight label

00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:07.657
the night before. But there was
something wrong that nothing else happened.

00:21:07.690 --> 00:21:12.526
They come to me in the morning. We
almost have a child born right in my

00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:18.207
house. So dear it is.

00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.516
But these things how I do it and this
and that. I couldn't reveal that to

00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:31.187
you people. It's a cape. I promised my
great spiritual fathers in this

00:21:31.220 --> 00:21:37.576
universe that I will not expose
myself. I could not handed down among my

00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:39.607
Children

00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:45.736
because it again, I could teach him a
few herbs and something like that

00:21:45.769 --> 00:21:53.769
for emergency you. Yeah, that's about
as far as I can go. So this is the

00:21:54.089 --> 00:22:01.286
thing. Two years ago, three years ago
I made a trip to Hawaii.

00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:07.667
I thought I went on a vacation is a
rational but they soon find out that I

00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:11.816
was a healer. The people of how are
you flocked to me Like I don't know

00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:13.927
what

00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:19.496
I came back home a year after that.
The people of Hawaii to call me back

00:22:19.529 --> 00:22:22.207
to Honolulu.

00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:30.240
They call me a healer. Hopi indian a
healer. A man of love.

00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:35.486
There must be something behind my
healing otherwise. The people of highway

00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.597
would waste their diamond nickels to
pay my transportation won't with joe

00:22:41.630 --> 00:22:47.607
dale gave today we are here.

00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:55.476
We can try and work. Oh beloved doctor
here will say our brother here.

00:22:55.509 --> 00:23:01.407
They don't look too much but never
tell that.

00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:08.177
But that way I think we can go on and
serve all mankind. And here's

00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:15.107
another thing that I want to tell the
last time when I was over in Hawaii

00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:19.586
the medicine man, they call all the
herb men of Hawaii on different

00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:26.816
islands. There were seven of them.
They wanted to initiate me into or give

00:23:26.849 --> 00:23:33.536
me some sort of power. It's all they
took one week and they took me over

00:23:33.569 --> 00:23:40.407
to the big island. Yeah, It took only
3/4 an hour on the plane to land in.

00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:48.440
And big island there they put me
through a underground temple they call,

00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:54.776
oh and how are you don't call them the
medicine man. They call him the

00:23:54.809 --> 00:24:00.516
corona. Some of you people probably
have read a book about the corona and

00:24:00.549 --> 00:24:07.367
the great work that they are doing.
They have a great power. I become one

00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:15.400
of them. I was initiated in the temple
and they picked me up in the

00:24:15.670 --> 00:24:23.670
mountains there in a cape into a
water. They didn't me four times. And

00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:31.137
when all that procedure worked on the
head Priest Samuel luna, his name. I

00:24:31.170 --> 00:24:37.377
had three. He put his arm on my
shoulders and his head. Brother shallow.

00:24:37.410 --> 00:24:45.410
How did he do my indian name. Mhm. But
that is a mystery to me yet. Today.

00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:52.387
How did he know my indian name? But
that's what he called me. He said

00:24:52.420 --> 00:24:59.697
Brother salo. Now you have the power.
How are you? We have given you the

00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:04.657
power with no connection with into the
evil. We want you to take this

00:25:04.690 --> 00:25:12.506
power back to the mainland and using
on all mankind.

00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:20.539
We hope that you will help to save few
lives on the mainland. They call

00:25:21.700 --> 00:25:27.806
this the mainland because today hawaii
said steak. So dear I have that

00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:33.766
power with me. I with the others. The
power that I have received here in

00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:39.786
this country. Mhm. How are you? It's a
great place but Arizona top them

00:25:39.819 --> 00:25:43.707
off. I like Arizona.

00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:49.397
So we here we are. We're trying to
work with the doctor. We have a great

00:25:49.430 --> 00:25:56.707
love for him and may God bless us and
help us to continue with our work.

00:25:56.740 --> 00:26:04.740
 Thank you.

00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:12.506
Mhm. Yeah.

00:26:12.539 --> 00:26:16.207
Ladies and gentlemen,

00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.707
we've been invited to this conference.

00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:24.617
I don't know. We're glad to be here.
We have known this doctor Dr

00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:31.806
Hammerschlag. Some people may know him
and we have great respect for him.

00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:34.816
Uh

00:26:34.849 --> 00:26:40.107
call him as her brother. Mhm.

00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:46.506
Of course what he golden says. You
know it's all true.

00:26:46.539 --> 00:26:52.877
I Mhm. Never thought I was going to do
this kind of work on the people.

00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:57.736
And my main job is on the broken
bones, pistol gated bones, straight

00:26:57.769 --> 00:27:04.467
muscles and other things. I've been
working on a people a long time. And

00:27:04.500 --> 00:27:10.486
through my experience I found some of
the things that uh not called

00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:17.607
elements inside the body. Uh

00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:22.687
Yeah, good. Yeah, so

00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:30.357
I work on these people in all. Of
course Bill Dalton is sort of a

00:27:30.390 --> 00:27:35.016
psychiatrist, you know, he knows what
people might have in their heads or

00:27:35.049 --> 00:27:37.907
other things, you know.

00:27:37.940 --> 00:27:42.967
But it's it's pretty hard working on
the people I know and perhaps some of

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:50.457
the doctors know how hard it is to be
working on the people when I start

00:27:50.490 --> 00:27:53.617
working with people.

00:27:53.650 --> 00:28:00.107
And I just wondered how I got this
job. I've been thinking all the time

00:28:00.140 --> 00:28:06.296
that people began to know that I can
do some work on a broken bones and

00:28:06.329 --> 00:28:11.976
other things and they started coming
to me, you know. But I can tell you

00:28:12.009 --> 00:28:19.617
this, yeah one of a bone specialist
used to be at my home, he is a

00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:24.506
descendant of my my mother

00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:31.296
and he is to be a medicine man who
uses crystal. So I've been thinking you

00:28:31.329 --> 00:28:35.167
know how I got this job, you know, and
I thought it might be him, you know

00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:39.816
that I inherit from him. But with this
kind of work they're working on

00:28:39.849 --> 00:28:42.207
their bones,

00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:49.927
it's really hard to heal the people.
But as I say it's a give from someone

00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:57.960
who is higher than I am and he gives
me all his power to feel. I don't

00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:03.766
have any kind of X ray to use or any
kind of the operators, you know, to

00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:11.799
open up the surgery work on the
people. But I've always done my best to

00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:17.387
help the people because I thought I
was given this job by someone who may

00:29:17.420 --> 00:29:23.677
choose me to do this kind of work. And
I know I can say I saved a lot of

00:29:23.710 --> 00:29:30.907
people and I'm glad of it. I've been
called a different hospitals

00:29:30.940 --> 00:29:34.467
because some of the accident happens
up in home, you know, and they send

00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:41.056
them to different hospitals and where
they don't seem to recover. The

00:29:41.089 --> 00:29:44.897
parents would take me to the hospital.
I've been even to some private

00:29:44.930 --> 00:29:47.986
hospitals around

00:29:48.019 --> 00:29:54.937
and technology a lot of times it's
pretty hard for me to go on account of

00:29:54.970 --> 00:29:59.016
the lack of money. I had to go
sometimes on my own and sometimes the

00:29:59.049 --> 00:30:03.006
parents would pay my transportation
back and forth. It's really hard on

00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:11.039
those things on me. But up till now we
had some conference done in feeling

00:30:12.069 --> 00:30:15.107
phone was it

00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:17.806
six months ago

00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:23.967
and I've been down to the hospital
several times saying he knows uh

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.546
at that conference I told some of
these doctor of course I had a doctor,

00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:33.006
there might be some doctors here too.

00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:41.039
It's pretty hard on me and I had to
travel back and forth sometimes. But

00:30:42.509 --> 00:30:50.509
as I work, I know we all have faith,
all the people have faith but I

00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:55.207
learned some time ago, you know that
there's a lot of these white people

00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.006
that don't have feet.

00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:03.207
I don't know why maybe they just roll
around and then grow up.

00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:10.496
But well I say someone is taking care
of what someone may just go all that.

00:31:10.529 --> 00:31:17.306
Well I don't use to have any kind of
curved to work on these broken bones.

00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:21.486
But I've been thinking thinking only
of some of the things you know that

00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:27.207
I have tried on on some of the herbs
and the using on those broken bones

00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:31.806
and I succeed. So I know what I used
to people now you know to help build

00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:35.707
up the broken bones again

00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:40.157
lot of times I get so discouraged
sometimes you know because accidents are

00:31:40.190 --> 00:31:43.996
very very bad things and the sad thing
is, you know, sometimes you know a

00:31:44.029 --> 00:31:48.726
patient don't seem like it's going to
come back, you know, but I say quite

00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:51.707
a number of the people.

00:31:51.740 --> 00:31:57.066
And another thing is I want to say to
some of you, maybe some of your

00:31:57.099 --> 00:32:05.099
doctors and nurses here let us do our
job the way we should do help the

00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:08.157
patient.

00:32:08.190 --> 00:32:14.197
This is what I have in mind all the
time because right now I see up around

00:32:14.230 --> 00:32:20.506
on a reservation in our reservation
hospitals a lot of times the same

00:32:20.539 --> 00:32:24.597
people going to hospital maybe for
broken bones and other things, you know

00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:31.336
, they come to me because they
couldn't use their legs or their arms when

00:32:31.369 --> 00:32:34.826
I checked them. It wasn't said

00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:38.306
well I know some of the doctors I know
the doctors are drawing a lot of

00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:43.776
money but we don't we don't we don't
draw money like that. So I told him

00:32:43.809 --> 00:32:51.016
down, I ain't no let us work. Let us
do what we know and use them to

00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:57.677
people in order to get them well yeah,
so

00:32:57.710 --> 00:33:03.657
I home all you know some of you might
be doctors here, heard me what I

00:33:03.690 --> 00:33:10.147
said and all. Let us do our best and
on hell those people and I would say

00:33:10.180 --> 00:33:15.036
it is too, it's not me that's healing
the people. Someone that has given

00:33:15.069 --> 00:33:21.046
me this job is the one that does the
healing. I considered myself only as

00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:27.556
a servant if I don't have that uh if I
don't have the power that someone

00:33:27.589 --> 00:33:31.816
has given me, I won't feel anything, I
won't feel the broken bones or I

00:33:31.849 --> 00:33:36.207
won't feel anything, you know that
it's wrong. Insight.

00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:40.836
I still have two equation working on
one uh you know, they can't speak,

00:33:40.869 --> 00:33:48.306
you know. But one of them was talking
now it's really hard. But I'm glad

00:33:48.339 --> 00:33:55.296
that I think dr Hammerschlag has taken
interest in us, you know, and he

00:33:55.329 --> 00:34:03.329
started working with us and he helped
me out a lot. I hope I can help him

00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:09.296
out someday too. Some of these herbs
that I know some of you have in your

00:34:09.329 --> 00:34:13.436
mind not to question out us about
these herbs you know but we don't know

00:34:13.469 --> 00:34:17.626
everything. It's someone that has
given us this job is the one that put

00:34:17.659 --> 00:34:23.407
that into our heads and we get it into
a heart in order to use. Some of

00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:31.006
the herbs have leaves can help people
with. Uh

00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:37.137
There is some of the things you know
that yeah especially us, you know if

00:34:37.170 --> 00:34:41.217
you don't want it because we don't go
to school for this. But it's someone

00:34:41.250 --> 00:34:45.956
that has given us this job. That's the
only one that can help us on these

00:34:45.989 --> 00:34:53.736
things. You know I know there's some
other people you know other race of

00:34:53.769 --> 00:35:01.646
people they have studied these herbs
but not me. Oh no I know he's just

00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:08.137
like myself too you know he doesn't
know much about her. But whatever they

00:35:08.170 --> 00:35:15.276
give that he asked the as you know.
Yeah. Someone when a vision comes to

00:35:15.309 --> 00:35:23.217
him he feels wrong. Well I guess this
is what he needs. You get it in his

00:35:23.250 --> 00:35:26.467
head right away and then they started
looking for somewhere if you know

00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:32.307
what that would do a patient some good
and I know that's the way he works.

00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:39.666
It's a mm hmm. Some people say when I
fix a broken bone say boy it's a

00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:44.546
miracle I had him in the hospital. I
didn't didn't do anything for him.

00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:52.579
Well I said don't take me as God
because I am not. I'm just a servant.

00:35:52.940 --> 00:35:58.177
Yeah but I'm glad that we're here and
try to tell you some of the things

00:35:58.210 --> 00:36:05.117
and yes and after our time is up, you
know we might take the rest a little

00:36:05.150 --> 00:36:10.197
bit or maybe there's another one is
coming up soon after the meeting. We

00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:18.230
can after more right away.

00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:23.896
You must have some sense. This is a
different kind of subject material. It

00:36:23.929 --> 00:36:28.416
doesn't lend itself wealth to kind of
a lecture format. Are there any

00:36:28.449 --> 00:36:31.307
questions on the basis of what you've
heard so that we can kind of get

00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:36.697
down to it?

00:36:36.730 --> 00:36:44.730
Okay. Can you speak? Yeah. One. Yeah.
Problem.

00:36:47.829 --> 00:36:53.697
Yeah. Mhm mm. Yeah.

00:36:53.730 --> 00:36:55.896
Mhm.

00:36:55.929 --> 00:37:00.436
Mhm. Okay. There are two questions.
One is what are the referral sources

00:37:00.469 --> 00:37:03.717
from the hospital to the medicine men?
And the Converse I would guess is

00:37:03.750 --> 00:37:06.977
part of that question. The other is
how do you train people in terms of

00:37:07.010 --> 00:37:14.177
herbs? There's a question to Bill
Dalton, who is novelist? I like. How do

00:37:14.210 --> 00:37:20.197
you teach people? Do you take students
out? Uh

00:37:20.230 --> 00:37:26.097
That's a good question. How I come to
you sir. I mean what form and all

00:37:26.130 --> 00:37:32.986
that? Sometimes a fortune would come
to me And when I asked him question

00:37:33.019 --> 00:37:38.307
about different ailments and so forth?
And some purchase some of them

00:37:38.340 --> 00:37:44.006
would say I've been bouncing around
from doctor to doctor and they told me

00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:48.997
that there is nothing wrong with me.
There must be something wrong.

00:37:49.030 --> 00:37:54.816
Otherwise I wouldn't have the feeling
and all that of my body. And I was

00:37:54.849 --> 00:38:00.947
studying. I started them very crowded.
I know exactly what's wrong with

00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:08.686
the person. So that's where I agree
with the doctor. And I tell them

00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:16.719
physically you are normal physically.
You are physically you are normal.

00:38:17.130 --> 00:38:23.236
But mentally you are ill. Too much
thinking is how quick they can get rich.

00:38:23.269 --> 00:38:28.586
And one thing after another like that
knuckler to help would come down

00:38:28.619 --> 00:38:35.276
when a person comes to me with a bad
ailment. I know if it's a stomach

00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:40.327
trouble or something causing gas and
so forth like that. I know just what

00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:48.360
herb to give and they are instructed
to and what they use it to the way I

00:38:49.340 --> 00:38:56.287
asked them to. They can't help but get
well, okay

00:38:56.320 --> 00:39:01.756
perhaps maybe I could question.
Probably come up and say could I teach

00:39:01.789 --> 00:39:08.316
somebody to do it? I'm trying to teach
him my daughter. She's taking a

00:39:08.349 --> 00:39:14.876
nurse training down to song leaves in
two songs. And since she's a woman

00:39:14.909 --> 00:39:20.686
going to work on monday, I'm trying to
give you some of that.

00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:27.186
But I've asked her distinct. Please do
not reveal this to anyone. So what

00:39:27.219 --> 00:39:32.686
does she do it? I hope she'll lose now
another.

00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:35.796
Well let's just get the first point.
Yes. I do refer people back to

00:39:35.829 --> 00:39:39.327
traditional healers and traditional
healers are far more likely to refer

00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:43.767
people to Western doctors. The senses
that we We tend not to view each

00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.586
other equally. Most Western trained
physicians become reasonably kind of

00:39:47.619 --> 00:39:51.296
ethnocentric our way is the best way.
It's the kind of thing that's

00:39:51.329 --> 00:39:54.606
predicated on 30 years of learning
when kind of the universe revolves

00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:59.867
around us. It's very difficult to kind
of work in both ways. But yes, we

00:39:59.900 --> 00:40:03.677
refer people back and forth and there
is a charge. Medicine men do charge

00:40:03.710 --> 00:40:07.876
uh medicine will also refer people to
each other and they're different

00:40:07.909 --> 00:40:12.657
specialties. Uh Sorry to have to our
specialty is muscles, bones and

00:40:12.690 --> 00:40:18.026
joints. He will refer people bill for
uh for herbs. But it's not the kind

00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:22.477
of thing that can be taught as I
understand it. What herbs even to be used

00:40:22.510 --> 00:40:27.157
May come from Dreams. one sees it. I
have asked to go and collect the

00:40:27.190 --> 00:40:31.227
herbs. Uh and I've never done so I've
been asked not to do so. I've seen

00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:35.876
the herbs once they're picked but I
have not gotten to the place.

00:40:35.909 --> 00:40:37.977
Okay.

00:40:38.010 --> 00:40:42.876
Mhm, mm hmm. Yeah.

00:40:42.909 --> 00:40:47.477
Fine

00:40:47.510 --> 00:40:51.477
audience?

00:40:51.510 --> 00:40:59.510
Yeah. What major? Well the body
without men in society. Mhm. Conversation.

00:41:01.309 --> 00:41:03.309
Real personal example. Now you talk to them I'm going to do.

00:41:08.710 --> 00:41:13.276
Mhm. I'm sorry

00:41:13.309 --> 00:41:20.477
your mother. Yeah.

00:41:20.510 --> 00:41:26.026
Did everybody hear the question while
the bagpipes are playing? Mhm. Okay.

00:41:26.059 --> 00:41:29.037
The question is, what are the
diagnostic tools are there other than

00:41:29.070 --> 00:41:33.356
conversation that acupuncturist for
example have points on the body that

00:41:33.389 --> 00:41:37.907
they test pulses to make some
diagnostic assessment. And the question was

00:41:37.940 --> 00:41:45.940
how does a traditional healer make a
diagnosis other than talking.

00:41:50.809 --> 00:41:54.077
Uh huh. Okay.

00:41:54.110 --> 00:42:00.006
Oh let me limit. Oh. Oh your question
is how did how do I know? Order

00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:06.467
pushing is sick and what part of their
body and so forth.

00:42:06.500 --> 00:42:13.706
Mm. Well the first thing I got to do
is to find out while the paint on the

00:42:13.739 --> 00:42:18.177
ailments and so forth that's forming
and and the suffering that brings to

00:42:18.210 --> 00:42:24.967
the person. I don't study. And all
right one something comes to my mind

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:32.037
that I know just what he did. Eight
again. So therefore I would go ahead

00:42:32.070 --> 00:42:38.836
and and get a hold of world and then I
would place my hand on your pain is

00:42:38.869 --> 00:42:46.869
here under Children's and so forth.
And I will tell them why. I said the

00:42:47.099 --> 00:42:52.356
reason why you are getting dissed in
here. I said you will get well if you

00:42:52.389 --> 00:42:58.327
change your diaper at the present time
we want to know why there's so much

00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:04.256
diabetes and other things like that.
It's what we eat books, what we are

00:43:04.289 --> 00:43:10.947
eating at the present time and what
you are drinking and putting it down

00:43:10.980 --> 00:43:13.467
to your stomach.

00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:19.836
If you could correct all that you
won't have shocking diabetes is are

00:43:19.869 --> 00:43:24.367
maintained. You could control record
hotel.

00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:32.400
Yes those are oh if you take this
earth for six months alone it'll cure.

00:43:32.690 --> 00:43:38.947
He don't relieve you of it. But it
will cure. So that is the thing. It's

00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:44.827
our hands and stuff to tell us what it
is and so forth like that. You

00:43:44.860 --> 00:43:52.860
won't tell them about that might,

00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:57.967
you know, you've been asking

00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:03.856
how we found some ailments in the
body. Is that working?

00:44:03.889 --> 00:44:07.657
So I don't know he is.

00:44:07.690 --> 00:44:15.690
How will you find out element in the
body? Did you hear, did you hear that

00:44:18.090 --> 00:44:21.057
the old guys or not?

00:44:21.090 --> 00:44:24.856
Mm hmm.

00:44:24.889 --> 00:44:30.756
Well the way I found these things out,
you know

00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:34.447
if some people, because I've been
working with people a long time and now

00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:39.747
I want something inside sometimes. And
I asked him just like he's doing

00:44:39.780 --> 00:44:47.780
too how he feels when he gets sick.
Mhm. Then I would feel wrong. Feel the

00:44:51.500 --> 00:44:58.256
body and through my hands. I can find
some help.

00:44:58.289 --> 00:45:03.307
Then all of a sudden sometimes, you
know, the herb might come into my

00:45:03.340 --> 00:45:08.256
brain. Well this is therapy needs

00:45:08.289 --> 00:45:15.597
so I if I had there but give it to
them, but if not I have to look at and

00:45:15.630 --> 00:45:21.247
promise him to come by a certain day.
So I can give it. Because I say this

00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:28.296
is a gift from somebody to us And he
is the one that they're securing.

00:45:28.329 --> 00:45:31.157
It's not me.

00:45:31.190 --> 00:45:39.190
So that's the way I found is illness
anybody. He said the truth. Their

00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:47.190
body, it's okay. But up in the head
they're sick. We all have problems

00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:54.066
right now. I'm telling you the truth.
Mhm. Why? Because there's a lot of

00:45:54.099 --> 00:46:00.227
where is go on around every day. And I
know some of your people know that

00:46:00.260 --> 00:46:07.126
too. Mhm. Because we've been worrying
about things all the time. A lot of

00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:12.856
things going on right now, like a lot
of these mugs going on what causes

00:46:12.889 --> 00:46:16.517
sickness too.

00:46:16.550 --> 00:46:18.847
And

00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:24.407
of course, in our days, in our indian
ways, you you know that the indians

00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:30.146
used to be the healthiest people in
the world. But up till now,

00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:35.936
all the indians are Philip in these
hospitals. Why? Because our food is

00:46:35.969 --> 00:46:41.247
changes and everything has changed.

00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:49.280
What we have to eat in our days by the
strongest meal that we have

00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:59.280
so good. I'm sorry. These things what
causes sickness now? Yeah. See your

00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:08.347
foot. You what? People's food are
very, very fine and that naturally

00:47:08.380 --> 00:47:14.697
right. All right. That's why we're
sick all the time.

00:47:14.730 --> 00:47:22.730
And I can say this to mm hmm. In
medical situation, there's a lot of

00:47:23.670 --> 00:47:30.017
chances in white man's medicine.
They're still researching some of the

00:47:30.050 --> 00:47:37.347
medicines and they are using it now to
find out if it will heal the people

00:47:37.380 --> 00:47:42.776
and our bodies are not made all safe.
They're nuts. All safe. Some are

00:47:42.809 --> 00:47:47.827
weak. Some are strong. And some of
these medicine that doesn't agree with

00:47:47.860 --> 00:47:52.316
your body sometimes. You know, that
causes more sickness too. Well, this

00:47:52.349 --> 00:47:56.376
is all I can say thank you. Okay. So
that we all have a chance to ask some

00:47:56.409 --> 00:48:01.407
questions and we'll try to keep our
responses kind of short and if you

00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:05.776
give your questions short briefly
talking is not the only way touching the

00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:12.387
trembling of hands using of the eyes
are all involved in diagnostic kinds

00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:19.537
of work. Yeah. Sorry? Yes.

00:48:19.570 --> 00:48:27.570
Mhm.

00:48:28.769 --> 00:48:32.537
Yeah.

00:48:32.570 --> 00:48:36.977
Everybody hear that. What's being done
on reservation to deal with

00:48:37.010 --> 00:48:41.287
preventive medicine? An interesting
question. 85% of the people that come

00:48:41.320 --> 00:48:44.876
into a general medical practice will
probably get better anyway or have

00:48:44.909 --> 00:48:49.827
something that we can't cure so that
it don't make any difference. Kind of

00:48:49.860 --> 00:48:53.186
what happens as long as you're kind
and nice and one as a warm interaction

00:48:53.219 --> 00:48:57.697
or relationship. People are going to
get well by and large. It seems to me

00:48:57.730 --> 00:49:03.427
that the task for many of us, isn't it
not to do any additional harm uh

00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:08.467
which also happens on occasion in
terms of preventive medicine. Uhh by the

00:49:08.500 --> 00:49:13.356
time people become symptomatic, that's
the time they will seek out both me

00:49:13.389 --> 00:49:16.657
or traditional healer. But what it is
that makes them symptomatic, that

00:49:16.690 --> 00:49:19.997
differs. For example, an individual
might come to see Bill don't know

00:49:20.030 --> 00:49:23.907
Herbert Lofton because there has been
a bad dream because something has

00:49:23.940 --> 00:49:26.847
happened in the night because somebody
has seen an animal in a special

00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:32.106
place because some special things have
occurred and one considers it an

00:49:32.139 --> 00:49:36.847
omen okay, an individual is coming in
who is already symptomatic, even

00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:40.617
though there is no organic deficit. Am
I saying that clearly that somehow

00:49:40.650 --> 00:49:43.796
there's the anticipation that
something is going to happen. But by and

00:49:43.829 --> 00:49:47.486
large I see people who already defined
themselves as symptomatic when they

00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:52.046
come to see me and I think that for
both Herbert and Bill to by the time a

00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.736
patient comes to see them, they've
already decided that something is wrong.

00:49:55.769 --> 00:49:59.856
I think that medicine by and large has
dealt only with symptoms. We wait

00:49:59.889 --> 00:50:03.847
for people to come to us and I think
that no increase in the number of

00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:07.666
doctors is ever going to make any
difference in terms of treating illness.

00:50:07.699 --> 00:50:10.896
The great advances in medicine have
never come from any increase in the

00:50:10.929 --> 00:50:15.117
number of practitioners. It has always
come from the development of some

00:50:15.150 --> 00:50:19.447
preventative agent, the development of
a vaccine, a chemical to treat

00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.896
tuberculosis, that's where the great
advances in medicine come from. If we

00:50:22.929 --> 00:50:26.467
continue only to restrict ourselves to
the symptomatic expression of

00:50:26.500 --> 00:50:31.396
disease, it is like treating the fever
of leukemia with aspirin and then

00:50:31.429 --> 00:50:34.796
thinking that you've done something
for the underlying disease. I think we

00:50:34.829 --> 00:50:38.456
clearly have to extend ourselves to
the areas of preventive medicine and

00:50:38.489 --> 00:50:41.907
certainly preventive mental health. Uh
we know a lot of things that make

00:50:41.940 --> 00:50:44.327
people uptight

00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:49.146
and we ought to be able to do
something about that. I'm rambling on gus I

00:50:49.179 --> 00:50:52.967
think if somebody comes to see me who
is working at a place and his boss

00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:57.617
happens to be a racist, who is a
member of the ku Klux Klan and he says

00:50:57.650 --> 00:51:00.197
listen, no matter what I do, he's
always putting me down and I can't work

00:51:00.230 --> 00:51:03.577
there and it's the only job I can
find. If you tell such an individual,

00:51:03.610 --> 00:51:06.887
listen you have to adapt. He's the
boss and you're going to get fired. You

00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:10.927
have to take it. That's a political
act. That is even to suggest that you

00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:15.776
have to adapt. That is that you have
to somehow I can't go along with it

00:51:15.809 --> 00:51:19.037
because he's got more power than you
do. That's a political act. I think

00:51:19.070 --> 00:51:21.997
that part of preventative mental
health for example is that one has to

00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:26.927
address issues like institutional
racism, one has to address the work

00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:30.236
setting as well as deal with the
individual.

00:51:30.269 --> 00:51:37.427
Did you want to hear from somebody
else? Kasai will ramble indefinitely.

00:51:37.460 --> 00:51:42.126
Mhm. Yeah.

00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:50.159
Mhm. Mhm. Uh Okay. Yeah. Mhm. Okay.
What you know that there's some things

00:51:51.980 --> 00:51:55.867
that make people sick. Can you ever
tell people what not to do so that

00:51:55.900 --> 00:52:03.900
they will not face? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
There you. Mhm. A technician.

00:52:05.550 --> 00:52:12.546
Yeah that's a good question. If we
could answer that probably it probably

00:52:12.579 --> 00:52:18.617
won't help us to get legal arrest. The
question is if there is something

00:52:18.650 --> 00:52:23.006
that could be done or the people could
do to prevent them from getting

00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:26.617
sick and this and that

00:52:26.650 --> 00:52:34.650
yes there is. If they go ahead and
change their way of living and order

00:52:35.230 --> 00:52:42.447
and there is a proper thing that you
can go and eat. Take into your about

00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:50.480
it. It will do your Tibet. But at the
present time it is impossible. Years

00:52:50.750 --> 00:52:58.467
ago our ancestors used to use nothing
but strictly pure food or what they

00:52:58.500 --> 00:53:04.597
call and gathered themselves out in
the desert. Another place don't work a

00:53:04.630 --> 00:53:11.217
natural food. There was no such a
thing as significant. Cancer was unknown.

00:53:11.250 --> 00:53:18.447
Sugar, diabetes. What's on notes,
headache and agitate what unknown until

00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:24.416
the civilization began to move in and
all that has been changed.

00:53:24.449 --> 00:53:30.907
Everything we eat now it's either
chemical really truly. When you buy

00:53:30.940 --> 00:53:36.206
things off the shelves in the store
grocery store, you'll find that it's

00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:43.677
been chemically treated and all that
sugar, some of it has been substitute

00:53:43.710 --> 00:53:49.727
and all that. We're taking that into
their body. Remember our body is very

00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:55.736
delicate. It only got you so much with
sweetness and so forth. The Good

00:53:55.769 --> 00:54:02.566
Lord has prepared all that for on all
types of food. You take a fruit of

00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:09.057
any kind. There's enough sugar in the
fruit for your body. Me as well as

00:54:09.090 --> 00:54:16.467
any other thing. But no I've seen some
pushes which slides a watermelon

00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:22.637
and starts Sprinkle more sugar on the
thing I say to myself, there goes

00:54:22.670 --> 00:54:25.807
the diabetes

00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:31.376
that is the thing that caution more
diabetes is artificial sweetening and

00:54:31.409 --> 00:54:36.827
some parts like that. We go to the
restroom and other stuff just to please

00:54:36.860 --> 00:54:43.717
our eyes on the plate, but nothing
good to our body and leave a good life

00:54:43.750 --> 00:54:50.787
? Take plenty exercise. Take plenty of
deep breathing and so forth? So you

00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:57.776
have a proper blood circulation and
all that. You keep your heart function

00:54:57.809 --> 00:55:04.026
in the right way. Don't overload
yourself with food, which doesn't do you

00:55:04.059 --> 00:55:10.407
any good. So this is the thing you can
prevent yourself from getting sick

00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:17.416
type of all. Thank you. Okay, just as
a commentary, the native concept of

00:55:17.449 --> 00:55:21.186
health and disease, which is related
to the question is that disease is an

00:55:21.219 --> 00:55:24.376
absence of harmony that you're kind of
not in harmony. You're not in truth

00:55:24.409 --> 00:55:29.077
, you're not in truth with yourself.
And that in order to get healthy, one

00:55:29.110 --> 00:55:33.077
has to kind of restore the balance and
the harmony. You've got to to be in

00:55:33.110 --> 00:55:37.157
truth and that there are ways to kind
of keep oneself in truth. And Bill

00:55:37.190 --> 00:55:39.836
is telling about some ways. One is to
watch what you eat because what you

00:55:39.869 --> 00:55:43.097
take in is what you're going to give
out. Another thing is to do those

00:55:43.130 --> 00:55:47.026
things that don't violate yourself.
They don't violate taboos. They do not

00:55:47.059 --> 00:55:50.967
violate the history of ones of one's
clan and one's people. And the

00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:55.296
disease is disharmony that something
is out of sync and you've got to get

00:55:55.329 --> 00:55:59.086
it back together again by restoring
such harmony and that the process of

00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:07.119
healing is a restoration of harmony.
You had a question. Mm

00:56:08.730 --> 00:56:14.497
wait

00:56:14.530 --> 00:56:17.197
mm hmm.

00:56:17.230 --> 00:56:20.467
Has anything been found to deal with
the problem of alcohol, drugs or

00:56:20.500 --> 00:56:28.500
herbs or otherwise? Thanks with
indians. Is there something

00:56:29.329 --> 00:56:35.396
that you have found that works with
alcohol problems among indian people?

00:56:35.429 --> 00:56:39.396
Is there anything you found? Yes.
Dear.

00:56:39.429 --> 00:56:46.137
Mhm. That's a good question. We've
been trying to lecture our people. I'm

00:56:46.170 --> 00:56:51.787
under indians about taking alcohol and
so forth. Like that's the worst

00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:58.396
thing they can do alcohol. It's
something that is not made for the barry.

00:56:58.429 --> 00:57:01.296
 Mhm.

00:57:01.329 --> 00:57:06.117
At the present time will say not a
percent of our people, the indian

00:57:06.150 --> 00:57:13.927
people, they began to go down and this
and that alcohol is she shined all

00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:19.566
types of happy marriages and so forth
will get on the reservation. We do

00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:23.197
not know how to use alcohol.

00:57:23.230 --> 00:57:28.626
But instead of using it property, if
there is such a word is properly used

00:57:28.659 --> 00:57:35.287
of alcohol. I don't find it. I don't
use it. So district joe that is the

00:57:35.320 --> 00:57:41.666
thing that destroy our crime of the
native on the reservation. I find that

00:57:41.699 --> 00:57:48.137
there is no other thing about drinking
now there is something else that's

00:57:48.170 --> 00:57:55.086
coming up among what are young
restrictions using is this marijuana may

00:57:55.119 --> 00:58:01.256
your honor is a great dish destruction
to a human mind. I don't remember

00:58:01.289 --> 00:58:06.887
that. However, deny we have studied it
now. The state of Arizona is

00:58:06.920 --> 00:58:13.287
talking about bringing in marijuana is
illegal. Wish I know. All right go

00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:21.320
unless you wanna see more debt and
destruction and all that there if they

00:58:21.590 --> 00:58:29.590
want to accept it. Okay. But me, I
said no. Yeah, alcohol hasn't got much

00:58:29.780 --> 00:58:36.217
place in the human body. I hope I'm
right. Yeah, hurry. Do you want to

00:58:36.250 --> 00:58:40.986
speak to that? You're an air hole?

00:58:41.019 --> 00:58:47.486
This is a Yeah, I'm not a political
question. What bill told you about

00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:54.907
this record deal? You know, it's it's
really not good for any kind of of a

00:58:54.940 --> 00:58:59.706
life hell destruct everything.

00:58:59.739 --> 00:59:04.936
And some years ago we had to attend a
conference on phoenix. You know,

00:59:04.969 --> 00:59:09.887
they were talking about legalizing
this marijuana,

00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:16.327
which I know is a deadly weapon to
humans being now. I don't know why some

00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:22.356
of these doctors agreed to make that
legalizing marijuana. It's not good.

00:59:22.389 --> 00:59:27.356
I'm against these things, you know,
because a lot of these things and a

00:59:27.389 --> 00:59:32.586
lot of people have gone with all these
linker.

00:59:32.619 --> 00:59:37.787
Okay. And I wish that some day

00:59:37.820 --> 00:59:45.586
we'll get rid of all this different
kinds of a destructive record there.

00:59:45.619 --> 00:59:52.896
It's just simply wasting to human
bodies. And I'm telling you the truth,

00:59:52.929 --> 00:59:59.566
it's really it's getting worse
everywhere. It's all over now and for that

00:59:59.599 --> 01:00:04.477
reason everybody got a problem right
now. Thank you. I think before we go

01:00:04.510 --> 01:00:07.447
on that conceptually, it's important
to kind of understand kind of where

01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:12.256
it's coming from. You know, alcoholism
at least from my perspective in

01:00:12.289 --> 01:00:14.907
terms of working with reservation
communities and for bill and Herbert as

01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:18.247
well is not a disease, which has been
kind of the current concept in this

01:00:18.280 --> 01:00:21.367
country. There's something comforting
about viewing alcohol as a disease,

01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:25.887
like something you've got like having
a tumor or like having diabetes, it

01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:28.586
takes the responsibility away from
oneself for doing something about it.

01:00:28.619 --> 01:00:32.367
After all, if you're suffering from a
disease, the tested implication is

01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:35.197
that there's something affecting you
from the outside over which one has

01:00:35.230 --> 01:00:39.736
no control. I think we have to get
away from that conceptually, alcohol is

01:00:39.769 --> 01:00:43.157
a disease that has been foisted upon
indian people. After 100 years of

01:00:43.190 --> 01:00:47.086
federal neocolonial dependency

01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:50.617
that the government has come and
essentially changed indian lifestyles. It

01:00:50.650 --> 01:00:56.896
has changed the lifestyle and made a
once proud and grand people, a a

01:00:56.929 --> 01:01:00.577
group dependent on the federal
government for most of their services,

01:01:00.610 --> 01:01:03.436
dominant culture has never understood
it by taking something away from

01:01:03.469 --> 01:01:07.497
someone, you make them less of what it
is that they were. And there's also

01:01:07.530 --> 01:01:11.787
a tacit assumption that what the what
it is that you're giving is better

01:01:11.820 --> 01:01:15.526
than what it is. That once was there
the end result of the last 100 years

01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:21.227
, a federal neo colonialism has been
an enforced dependency and a sense of

01:01:21.260 --> 01:01:24.717
powerlessness by many tribal groups
feeling that they can't make the

01:01:24.750 --> 01:01:28.416
change because the government is true
too strong, which it was when it

01:01:28.449 --> 01:01:32.057
originally relegated them to
reservations. It's very hard to get angry at

01:01:32.090 --> 01:01:36.137
such an oppressor because they have so
much power and the fear is that if

01:01:36.170 --> 01:01:40.827
you get angry, I mean really piste off
that the people are going to take

01:01:40.860 --> 01:01:44.677
away what little has already been
given, so that there is real and fantasy

01:01:44.710 --> 01:01:49.316
fears of retribution. So, one thing
that happens is you deal with anger

01:01:49.349 --> 01:01:53.546
and frustration and a feeling of
powerlessness in self destructive ways

01:01:53.579 --> 01:01:57.327
and alcohol is such a self destructive
symptoms and the way to deal with

01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:01.896
that I think is not chemicals but a
redistribution of power. And those are

01:02:01.929 --> 01:02:05.017
the kinds of areas in which people are
working when Herbert and Bill say,

01:02:05.050 --> 01:02:09.387
hey booze is destructive and grasses
destructive. It comes from a point of

01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:14.387
view that says it keeps us without
power, it destroys us in terms of not

01:02:14.420 --> 01:02:19.967
being able to get it together by using
things that take away the energy

01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:28.000
for making constructive change. It
keeps us down.

01:02:30.300 --> 01:02:35.367
Are there times when a whole community

01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:37.566
Mhm.

01:02:37.599 --> 01:02:45.599
No, something not just appointed, but
with the whole thing, man.

01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:52.867
Yeah. Mhm.

01:02:52.900 --> 01:02:56.137
Well

01:02:56.170 --> 01:03:01.427
that is this way, if the whole
community come into sickness, like for

01:03:01.460 --> 01:03:09.066
instance coal maybe going around and
other things, all right, the others

01:03:09.099 --> 01:03:14.506
pass through for people themselves,
you know, I've gone from house to

01:03:14.539 --> 01:03:20.767
house, you know, and all that kind of
a sickness. But the only thing is

01:03:20.800 --> 01:03:25.166
to prevent that as

01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:29.166
try to be happy whether the sickness
is going around, don't pay any

01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:33.896
attention to those things. That's the
only way you can prevent it, you

01:03:33.929 --> 01:03:40.066
know, just feel that there is nothing
going around even though there might

01:03:40.099 --> 01:03:44.227
be a sickness around a lot of these
other sicknesses that we're talking

01:03:44.260 --> 01:03:51.727
about, this alcoholism. It says
alcohol can form any kind of a sickness in

01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:57.497
our bodies. They say I agree with that
because I'm not a scientist or

01:03:57.530 --> 01:04:00.977
anything like that, you know? But
through my experience, I've found a lot

01:04:01.010 --> 01:04:03.666
of these things

01:04:03.699 --> 01:04:09.416
and as I said while ago, I wish we
could get rid of some of these things

01:04:09.449 --> 01:04:17.449
someday, you know? But the only thing
I can say this, of course the money

01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:25.800
is derived abundantly from all his
alcohol. That's why the government just

01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:29.896
opened it to the people.

01:04:29.929 --> 01:04:34.407
I think they are wrong in doing that?
I'm not against the government, but

01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:39.267
our Sadie's, they are wrong. It isn't
good for anybody. It isn't good for

01:04:39.300 --> 01:04:44.497
the health. So that's one thing, you
know, I wish they could get rid of it

01:04:44.530 --> 01:04:52.530
some way someday. Mm hmm. Mhm, mm hmm,
mm hmm. Mhm.

01:04:56.289 --> 01:05:00.756
Okay. Mhm. Mhm.

01:05:00.789 --> 01:05:06.256
Right. Mm. Yeah.

01:05:06.289 --> 01:05:09.327
Okay. The question was, our indian
tribes themselves, doing something

01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:14.686
about meeting their own health needs,
both alcohol and grass. I'm not sure

01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:22.719
we should include grasp because of my
own personal biases. But uh uh Okay.

01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:24.860
I'm sorry. Would it be easier? Can you hear now, sir? It's hard for me to

01:05:26.750 --> 01:05:29.517
stand up. I have a bad back, but I'm
willing to speak louder if that's

01:05:29.550 --> 01:05:31.657
okay.

01:05:31.690 --> 01:05:38.986
Uh you're pregnant. That's true. But
Herbert is helping me? I went to the

01:05:39.019 --> 01:05:44.756
Mayo clinic, they told me I needed an
operation uh and I walked out

01:05:44.789 --> 01:05:49.077
without the operation. Uh

01:05:49.110 --> 01:05:54.057
and what about schools for training
medicine men? Uh

01:05:54.090 --> 01:05:57.907
you I really lost the tenor of the
question, what are the tribes

01:05:57.940 --> 01:06:03.697
themselves doing to deal with their
health needs? And

01:06:03.730 --> 01:06:06.956
there is a school for Medicine men on
the Navajo reservation which you

01:06:06.989 --> 01:06:10.017
might want to hear about from Herbert
and Bill, that's a school at the

01:06:10.050 --> 01:06:13.816
Rough administration school where
there are training medicine man, bob

01:06:13.849 --> 01:06:16.907
Bergman is here, he can tell you more
about that uh since he was

01:06:16.940 --> 01:06:19.447
instrumental in this founding, but if
you'd like to hear it from another

01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:23.477
perspective, uh there's some strong
feelings among tribal groups that it

01:06:23.510 --> 01:06:28.506
can't be taught that the gift is
somehow given. Uh and it's a very

01:06:28.539 --> 01:06:31.447
difficult thing to teach. One either
has it and finds it or one doesn't

01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:35.577
have, it doesn't find it. Uh But there
are such schools in which the

01:06:35.610 --> 01:06:39.747
tradition is attempted to be passed
down from one generation to the next.

01:06:39.780 --> 01:06:42.526
It's very difficult to learn. For
example, another Hussein which may take

01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:47.146
9-12 days Bergman told me is like
translating the Bible and learning it by

01:06:47.179 --> 01:06:52.646
heart. Uh huh. Ben

01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:57.046
Yeah,

01:06:57.079 --> 01:07:00.947
that's a good question,

01:07:00.980 --> 01:07:08.980
I think I have already explained from
the start, that that's what I have

01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:13.606
known and give to me and the question
that's now asked, could I cheat

01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:19.546
somebody to take over my work like
that. I don't have that kind of a power

01:07:19.579 --> 01:07:27.126
to hand down to the next person I may
teach. Like as I stated, I'm trying

01:07:27.159 --> 01:07:32.736
to teach my daughter, living down to
song, she's a nurse, she needs some

01:07:32.769 --> 01:07:38.046
of those uh small things like that to
help other people. But to hang

01:07:38.079 --> 01:07:43.767
everything down, I don't have the
power and give to do so this will have

01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:49.497
to go down with me in my grave. Thank
you. Only in Western medicine, can

01:07:49.530 --> 01:07:53.126
you learn how to be a doctor? You go
to medical school, they tell you you

01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:56.256
know everything and you go out and
practice on people. There is a total

01:07:56.289 --> 01:08:01.077
absence of any sense of one's own
spirituality. Uh we can talk about that

01:08:01.110 --> 01:08:03.657
at great length, but I think the
important issue is that there's more to

01:08:03.690 --> 01:08:07.686
healing than somehow it being talked
in some organized and well formulated

01:08:07.719 --> 01:08:10.816
curriculum. There are clearly many
people who can heal who have not been

01:08:10.849 --> 01:08:14.057
so trained.

01:08:14.090 --> 01:08:21.576
That question came of course, I think
that MS, thank you much. Well, I

01:08:21.609 --> 01:08:25.097
think I have the same question, I know
they're coming from a place in

01:08:25.130 --> 01:08:29.437
Tucson where we are working very hard
in the community to try to educate

01:08:29.470 --> 01:08:34.366
people to how to come to truth, how to
come to balance. I feel the

01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:38.677
question is what are, what is
happening on the indian reservation, to

01:08:38.710 --> 01:08:43.237
train the indian people themselves,
not new generations of healers, but

01:08:43.270 --> 01:08:47.387
the people themselves to recognize the
disharmony to do most of the

01:08:47.420 --> 01:08:51.286
healings before they get to the hell
of is there that kind of educational

01:08:51.319 --> 01:08:56.437
thing happening east and western?

01:08:56.470 --> 01:09:01.746
Okay, I'm not trying to translate that
question in some way that Mhm I'll

01:09:01.779 --> 01:09:04.987
respond to myself and if you want to
kind of make a statement, I think

01:09:05.020 --> 01:09:08.696
that you know, we're talking now no
longer about disease, What we're

01:09:08.729 --> 01:09:13.847
talking about is how are we going to
change a history of 100 years, 100

01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:18.017
years of dependency, 100 years of
perceived powerlessness. How does one

01:09:18.050 --> 01:09:21.777
kind of take things back in control?
And it seems to me that the concept

01:09:21.810 --> 01:09:25.147
is not one of medicine, but one of
redistribution of power, which is

01:09:25.180 --> 01:09:28.916
really what I think what healing is
about. That's what I do. I teach

01:09:28.949 --> 01:09:32.256
people personally perceived power,
which is what mental health is, that

01:09:32.289 --> 01:09:34.987
you have the power to change your
life, that you have the power to make

01:09:35.020 --> 01:09:38.126
some alteration in your destiny. That
you can do some things that

01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:40.187
previously you may have thought that
you could not and that you're

01:09:40.220 --> 01:09:44.817
responsible for yourself extended. It
applies to communities and

01:09:44.850 --> 01:09:47.446
organizations as well, that the
community have to perceive their own

01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:50.567
powerful nous that the tribes
themselves have to know that what they say

01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:55.706
needs to be listened to and that to
get to real health. We're talking

01:09:55.739 --> 01:10:01.376
about redistributing power, that the
nature of the disease, as Bill and

01:10:01.409 --> 01:10:04.696
Herbert had talked about is is as much
mental as it is physical. The

01:10:04.729 --> 01:10:09.427
feeling that one cannot do it and
that's what one has to deal with saying.

01:10:09.460 --> 01:10:17.460
Yeah. Yeah, man and change. Go ahead.
Yeah. I think what she has any

01:10:20.210 --> 01:10:23.326
resource

01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:28.727
rolling the robot under No.

01:10:28.760 --> 01:10:36.760
Yeah. Uh huh. Uh Raymond, do you want
to say something? Yeah. As Raymond

01:10:36.890 --> 01:10:41.057
caine, who is the director of the
White Mountain Apache guidance clinic.

01:10:41.090 --> 01:10:46.097
So if you want to know what indian
people are doing to to control our own

01:10:46.130 --> 01:10:49.746
health services, this is a tribally
operated mental health center and this

01:10:49.779 --> 01:10:55.296
is Mr A McCain, its executive
director. Yeah. Yes. I think we're kind of

01:10:55.329 --> 01:10:58.906
getting in the way. I think some of
the questions you've been asking is

01:10:58.939 --> 01:11:02.387
political. You know, what can we do
about the government, that's something

01:11:02.420 --> 01:11:07.137
what we're interested. But I came
here, I was primarily interested was the

01:11:07.170 --> 01:11:12.857
healing art of the, you know, never
mind about the academics. What are my

01:11:12.890 --> 01:11:18.616
interest in this gentleman? What it
does to think? Talking about the other

01:11:18.649 --> 01:11:24.967
is kind of political. Yeah. This kind
of religion. This to me from my own

01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:30.727
observation, what has been brought to
me brought down to me by my

01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:38.760
forefathers said this is a way of life
with us, not just a religion, it's

01:11:39.210 --> 01:11:44.536
not a segment of our lives. This is
something that we do every day from

01:11:44.569 --> 01:11:47.967
the time you get up until in the
morning in the morning until in the

01:11:48.000 --> 01:11:54.406
evening. So I think what I was
primarily interested in the learning was

01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:58.057
that the art of healing not learning
but just to get an idea or try to

01:11:58.090 --> 01:12:02.967
establish an understanding and I kind
of think that it's cut into a

01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:06.477
political thing. What are we doing
education and so on? You know that's

01:12:06.510 --> 01:12:11.737
fine. But what I'm interested in is
what we are doing here is the art of

01:12:11.770 --> 01:12:17.817
healing and how it's approached.
Rather than just being academic granted.

01:12:17.850 --> 01:12:22.046
None of our medicine man will come up
here with sheepskin that says he's

01:12:22.079 --> 01:12:27.677
an M. D. Or PhD or what this is a
hard, hard life that they have to go

01:12:27.710 --> 01:12:31.847
through And it takes years and years
just as well as this. Good doctor

01:12:31.880 --> 01:12:37.126
hear. It takes that much time. They
don't get compensated for later are

01:12:37.159 --> 01:12:41.756
materially because they are not
materialistic and you got to learn the

01:12:41.789 --> 01:12:47.576
culture values and this is part of the
process right here we have a sense

01:12:47.609 --> 01:12:53.326
of sharing, not just giving but a
sense of sharing and this is part of our

01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:57.897
lives unless you understand, try to
get to understand that part of the

01:12:57.930 --> 01:13:03.126
culture value system versus the
dominant our society, the materialistic

01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:08.317
attitude. Then I think we will go a
long ways.

01:13:08.350 --> 01:13:15.317
So why not just uh let me line
something up. Okay. Yeah.

01:13:15.350 --> 01:13:18.116
Ladies and gentlemen,

01:13:18.149 --> 01:13:24.286
I think at a time just about to run
out. There hasn't been a question to

01:13:24.319 --> 01:13:27.317
ask about us

01:13:27.350 --> 01:13:35.166
about our price. Working over people
or anything like that. I'm glad no

01:13:35.199 --> 01:13:41.817
question was asked on that. We have no
such a thing as price.

01:13:41.850 --> 01:13:48.576
We don't have no license or anything
to carry on and try to scheme the

01:13:48.609 --> 01:13:55.467
people out of there nickels and dimes
and so forth like that. We take on

01:13:55.500 --> 01:14:03.500
all comers. And the question is to ask
us, how much do your chart or how

01:14:03.850 --> 01:14:09.977
much do I owe you? I always turn
around and tell them that's a good

01:14:10.010 --> 01:14:18.010
question. We have no such a thing. Uh
high on our Mhm. We are only trying

01:14:20.430 --> 01:14:28.430
to carry on on what our spiritual
father says. Give us and want us to do.

01:14:29.539 --> 01:14:36.626
If you want to help us outward to
anything, It'll have to be on your own

01:14:36.659 --> 01:14:44.659
three will Yeah, show in that manner.
Of course it's very expensive for us

01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:52.887
to run all over the country and clear
down to mexican border from special

01:14:52.920 --> 01:14:59.876
herbs and stuff like that. It's a
charge to carry on our and what Lynn

01:14:59.909 --> 01:15:07.909
away on. We just revolved it around
together more in order to save more

01:15:08.409 --> 01:15:10.506
lives.

01:15:10.539 --> 01:15:18.539
Mhm. Ladies and gentlemen, I have a
poor education to say, I do not have

01:15:18.649 --> 01:15:21.107
educated

01:15:21.140 --> 01:15:27.147
but yet I'm thankful for some of the
white people that through some of the

01:15:27.180 --> 01:15:33.057
best education into the trash can when
I go along and picked them out.

01:15:33.090 --> 01:15:40.637
That's where my education come from.
And ladies and gentlemen, I'm glad

01:15:40.670 --> 01:15:47.406
to be here. I'm getting down to my
second childhood

01:15:47.439 --> 01:15:55.439
At the present time. I'm 81 years old,
still strong and I hope get to the

01:15:56.420 --> 01:16:04.420
top whatever. To top it. Looking up
there show daddy I want to thank you

01:16:06.430 --> 01:16:11.746
people here that are all here. Thank
you too. Thank you for coming here

01:16:11.779 --> 01:16:18.946
and listen to it and what we have told
you. I hope you would go on with

01:16:18.979 --> 01:16:26.979
your life and also better your life.
Thank you.

01:16:27.569 --> 01:16:31.126
You want to say is hoping to bring
another. Huh? You want to take them

01:16:31.159 --> 01:16:38.397
from my Children? Yeah.

01:16:38.430 --> 01:16:45.116
Well we're glad to have your attention
and I hope you learn something from

01:16:45.149 --> 01:16:53.149
us. Mm I know I want to thank
everything how this organization they

01:16:54.479 --> 01:16:57.326
treated us

01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:02.246
and let us consider ourselves as
brothers and sisters all the time. Trying

01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:08.446
to save the people the best we know
how. Thank you.

01:17:08.479 --> 01:17:14.696
I think that that's

01:17:14.729 --> 01:17:18.397
Mellon Herbert. Tell me that it's time
to stop. That means it's time to

01:17:18.430 --> 01:17:23.116
stop. Uh We thank you for being here
this morning. We'd be welcome to kind

01:17:23.149 --> 01:17:26.296
of stay here if you'd like to speak to
us.

01:17:26.329 --> 01:17:34.097
Mhm Yeah.

01:17:34.130 --> 01:17:36.496
Uh huh.

01:17:36.529 --> 01:17:44.529
He brought his face Baskin 7 50 hands.
No, have you found you? Thanks. Hi

01:17:48.329 --> 01:17:50.897
bye.

01:17:50.930 --> 01:17:58.930
You and I can.

01:18:03.220 --> 01:18:10.427
Yeah, we're here. Our health and
healing. Uh it's a new interest. A

01:18:10.460 --> 01:18:17.446
revived interest and Julia and I are
going to talk about people and health

01:18:17.479 --> 01:18:21.597
and healing where it is not a new
interest in, where it's not a revived

01:18:21.630 --> 01:18:28.067
interest but has been ever present.
Mexican people, especially mexican

01:18:28.100 --> 01:18:36.100
women who lived isolated on ranchos
far away from medical centers long ago

01:18:37.520 --> 01:18:43.326
learned how to take care of people,
how to keep them well and what to do

01:18:43.359 --> 01:18:49.347
for them when they got sick. Uh Julia.
Soto comes from one of those

01:18:49.380 --> 01:18:54.097
families where they learned how to
keep people well and to do something

01:18:54.130 --> 01:18:59.887
for them once they did get sick. And
so I'm going to start by asking her

01:18:59.920 --> 01:19:07.920
um a little bit about this past. Uh
how did, how did women learn how to

01:19:09.399 --> 01:19:16.086
keep their Children healthy and their
families healthy.

01:19:16.119 --> 01:19:22.796
Uh, am I on, Can you hear? Okay. Uh I
think that first we have to set a

01:19:22.829 --> 01:19:27.086
little bit of a background among the
mexican american cultures as well as

01:19:27.119 --> 01:19:32.086
any other cultures. Family traditions
are really the jewels, not the

01:19:32.119 --> 01:19:36.116
things that are material things but
traditions that have been passed on

01:19:36.149 --> 01:19:43.206
from generation to generation. And one
of these has been the art or the

01:19:43.239 --> 01:19:47.147
expertise and being able to take care
of your family with the things that

01:19:47.180 --> 01:19:52.277
you have been able to find within the
household are out in the fields

01:19:52.310 --> 01:19:58.227
pretty near to the household. First I
would like to say that most of the

01:19:58.260 --> 01:20:02.006
things that have been done by the
mexican american families are not

01:20:02.039 --> 01:20:06.977
because those people were ignorant and
didn't know how to get to a doctor.

01:20:07.010 --> 01:20:11.946
It is because within the family
structure there has always been a very

01:20:11.979 --> 01:20:16.586
deep sense of caring for what happens
to the families and I'm sure it's

01:20:16.619 --> 01:20:22.286
the same and many other families
because every culture has folk healing

01:20:22.319 --> 01:20:26.446
regardless of which folk you are,
whether you're black, whether you're

01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:30.897
jewish, whether you're mexican
american, whether you're indian. But

01:20:30.930 --> 01:20:36.046
because of the way society has been in
the past, many of the mexican

01:20:36.079 --> 01:20:41.237
american people had not had access to
healthcare or very frankly speaking

01:20:41.270 --> 01:20:46.366
, they could not afford it. Therefore
many of the traditions that had been

01:20:46.399 --> 01:20:51.506
handed on from generation to
generation is what has been practiced at home.

01:20:51.539 --> 01:20:56.357
Much of this has been with the herbs
that we found either in the home or

01:20:56.390 --> 01:21:01.107
around the home. The other was with,
the practice is practiced by the

01:21:01.140 --> 01:21:06.206
mexican american, the Yaqui culture
from which I come from. So this is how

01:21:06.239 --> 01:21:11.647
the mother does with a lot of the
things that are in the home and like as

01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:16.126
any other village where people have
their elders, we also have our elders.

01:21:16.159 --> 01:21:21.487
We also have what is called the
Trabaja Dora Trabaja laura in an indian

01:21:21.520 --> 01:21:26.347
language is a person who is really
committed to working for the people

01:21:26.380 --> 01:21:30.946
rather than working for himself or
herself. So these are some of the

01:21:30.979 --> 01:21:34.347
practices that we have in the mexican
american culture. And I would like

01:21:34.380 --> 01:21:39.246
to ask rita at this time if there is
any specific thing that she would

01:21:39.279 --> 01:21:43.376
like to ask me.

01:21:43.409 --> 01:21:50.126
Okay Because Children are so
vulnerable and because their health is is

01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:55.217
such a delicate matter. What kinds of
things are done to keep very small

01:21:55.250 --> 01:22:02.616
Children well and what kinds of
illnesses are they prone to? Oh for some

01:22:02.649 --> 01:22:07.187
of the home remedies that were
practiced with the Children uh in

01:22:07.220 --> 01:22:12.717
identifying that perhaps a child was
running a fever. We have been

01:22:12.750 --> 01:22:19.046
involved in sponging off the child,
not so much in the traditional ways of

01:22:19.079 --> 01:22:23.937
Western medicines, but things that we
ourselves have done at home. I would

01:22:23.970 --> 01:22:29.477
say that the herbs play a very
important part in the mexican american home.

01:22:29.510 --> 01:22:35.687
The herbal teas in order to bring down
fever. Uh using of leaves as

01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:40.946
coolants for example, uh wedding off
the leaves and keeping them in clean

01:22:40.979 --> 01:22:45.987
cloth and then applying them to the
Children where it's all around their

01:22:46.020 --> 01:22:51.647
heads or on their bodies. But sponging
mags down very foreign. But when we

01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:57.506
say I get llevar Nino float are low,
which means that with water and

01:22:57.539 --> 01:23:02.717
alcohol are just bringing his
temperature down. The mexican americans.

01:23:02.750 --> 01:23:08.206
Think of diseases is either hot or
cold. Your fevers are your fabulous.

01:23:08.239 --> 01:23:12.706
Those that have to do with heat. Your
pas, most are most of the, of the

01:23:12.739 --> 01:23:17.086
illnesses that have to do with cold
within the body and the body not

01:23:17.119 --> 01:23:21.057
except in certain forms of cold within
the body? Such as your congestions

01:23:21.090 --> 01:23:26.616
? Such as various rashes that are due
to cold now these are some of my

01:23:26.649 --> 01:23:33.086
very own deep beliefs and uh we
practice that when we sponge the Children

01:23:33.119 --> 01:23:37.067
down for fevers, we more or less do it
in the same way you do. Except that

01:23:37.100 --> 01:23:41.416
we believe in a lot of the herbal teas
for bringing down fever. And I

01:23:41.449 --> 01:23:45.626
don't think that's so far fetched
because the doctor tells us plenty of

01:23:45.659 --> 01:23:51.467
liquids, yours might be water and
seven up to us it might be Manson. Eah,

01:23:51.500 --> 01:23:55.097
it might be Mancini was a little bit
of margarita was such a piece of a

01:23:55.130 --> 01:23:59.967
route. It might be various kinds of
teas, but these also help in control

01:24:00.000 --> 01:24:03.956
the fever.

01:24:03.989 --> 01:24:09.156
You mentioned some of the specific
herbs and you mentioned Man's ania.

01:24:09.189 --> 01:24:13.416
This is not one that grows in the
desert, it wants a little bit more

01:24:13.449 --> 01:24:19.456
moisture and a cooler climate to
flourish. But it's an example of one of

01:24:19.489 --> 01:24:26.456
the herbs that has been known since
antiquity and I really mean antiquity.

01:24:26.489 --> 01:24:31.567
Uh This is an herb that was used
before the time of christ. You find it

01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:37.256
in the bible. Uh Another herb that you
use a great deal is circle, which

01:24:37.289 --> 01:24:43.506
is just now starting to bloom. Many
people know this as elder blossom. An

01:24:43.539 --> 01:24:51.456
elder blossoms have been recorded 1500
1800 years before Christ uh as an

01:24:51.489 --> 01:24:57.227
herb that brings down the temperature.
Um Do you use it yourself? Do you

01:24:57.260 --> 01:25:02.876
have it in your garden? Yes I do. We
grow our our psycho. We have all

01:25:02.909 --> 01:25:09.116
types of herbs within the family what
we call the Koran, the area in the

01:25:09.149 --> 01:25:12.777
back of the house or to the side of
the house. It used to be a time when

01:25:12.810 --> 01:25:16.336
in Tucson you could go along the river
banks and just go down and pick

01:25:16.369 --> 01:25:19.536
your own south of when the blossoms
were just about ready to be picked

01:25:19.569 --> 01:25:25.946
before uh the fruit came in to be. And
uh mostly all the mexican american

01:25:25.979 --> 01:25:31.586
homes have south Romance ania canela
which is your cinnamon and uh many of

01:25:31.619 --> 01:25:38.506
the other uh rueda which is a herb
that is used for the curing of ear ache

01:25:38.539 --> 01:25:43.256
or at least stabilizing the ear ache
if in case the infection goes deeper.

01:25:43.289 --> 01:25:49.807
But all these uh teas and all these
herbs are found. Unfortunately as we

01:25:49.840 --> 01:25:54.796
progress with the building of more
stores and homes and shopping centers,

01:25:54.829 --> 01:25:59.527
many of the things that used to grow
wild are no longer available. So you

01:25:59.560 --> 01:26:04.977
must go to a drugstore in order to be
able to to acquire some of these

01:26:05.010 --> 01:26:09.967
things are going to nogales in Mexico
and purchase them there. But in most

01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:14.717
of the homes you could find that the
small heartily nor garden had a

01:26:14.750 --> 01:26:19.567
variety of, of the leaves and herbs
and roots and barks and just about

01:26:19.600 --> 01:26:24.246
anything that was used in the mexican
american home,

01:26:24.279 --> 01:26:30.456
One of the healing plants that has
fallen to developers is the prickly

01:26:30.489 --> 01:26:36.777
pear. If you took a pad of the prickly
pear and split it open and rubbed

01:26:36.810 --> 01:26:43.376
it along sore areas that needed
healing. Uh This is known in many indian

01:26:43.409 --> 01:26:50.187
uh, healers and also mexican healers.
A low uh, which is another one of

01:26:50.220 --> 01:26:56.376
those things that you read about in
the bible has recently been noted to

01:26:56.409 --> 01:27:01.406
be the best kind of remedy against the
severe burns that sometimes are

01:27:01.439 --> 01:27:06.336
caused by X rays. And if you have a
low growing in your garden, you just

01:27:06.369 --> 01:27:11.977
break off a branch and split it so
that you get off the epidermis, that's

01:27:12.010 --> 01:27:19.027
the top thick layer uh where the fluid
starts to run and rub that along

01:27:19.060 --> 01:27:22.647
where it's sore.

01:27:22.680 --> 01:27:28.536
One of the the little herbs that I was
quite delighted to see growing wild

01:27:28.569 --> 01:27:35.527
around uh arcosanti is the the bureau,
which is this what you see here and

01:27:35.560 --> 01:27:39.347
this is one of the best remedies that
you have for sores regardless of

01:27:39.380 --> 01:27:45.107
whether it is a cut that festered or
whether it's a boil or whatever. This

01:27:45.140 --> 01:27:50.046
is one of the best remedies for, for
cleansing wounds. And uh

01:27:50.079 --> 01:27:53.996
unfortunately you don't see too much
of it in Tucson now you really have

01:27:54.029 --> 01:27:57.887
to go out into the desert as long as
you're not in one of the national

01:27:57.920 --> 01:28:02.786
forests where you're gonna be fine for
picking whatever is available. But

01:28:02.819 --> 01:28:10.097
uh this is if you boil this and
cleans, cleanse the wound with the water.

01:28:10.130 --> 01:28:15.937
This is one of the best cleaning uh
medicinal herbs that grows abundantly.

01:28:15.970 --> 01:28:20.366
Like I say you can look out and see it
growing quite wild Doctor or t

01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:24.527
stop the card. He got done and said oh
my God I haven't seen this since.

01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:30.607
Most of it grows very wild along the
railroad tracks. But now that the sp

01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:35.246
company sprays along the railroad
tracks, most of these things die and

01:28:35.279 --> 01:28:39.166
those that aren't dead are
contaminated. So you're better off finding it

01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:44.166
somewhere around here if you feel
comfortable dealing with with herbs and

01:28:44.199 --> 01:28:49.046
plants. This is the thing the thing to
get for cleansing of wounds and

01:28:49.079 --> 01:28:54.557
sores or even splinters that might
have festered and now have passed

01:28:54.590 --> 01:29:02.590
around them. This is the stuff to use.
It's called bureau, we'd bureau and

01:29:02.720 --> 01:29:07.656
it has a little distinctive smell to
it but it really it works. Believe

01:29:07.689 --> 01:29:09.937
you me

01:29:09.970 --> 01:29:15.576
actually. Um what most of us have
growing in our garden and we really wish

01:29:15.609 --> 01:29:22.137
it weren't growing. There is called
spurge. It's a flat black milkweed.

01:29:22.170 --> 01:29:27.456
And it even can crowd out bermuda and
that must be a pretty vigorous kind

01:29:27.489 --> 01:29:34.576
of plant. Uh And this is what we tend
to use the mexicans call it um uh

01:29:34.609 --> 01:29:41.517
yerba colon Drina. And it too is very
good for cleaning wounds that

01:29:41.550 --> 01:29:47.826
festered and extremely valuable in the
days before we had antibiotics in

01:29:47.859 --> 01:29:52.656
the days before we had antiseptic
solutions for cleaning herbs for

01:29:52.689 --> 01:30:00.689
cleaning out wounds. Um We have, by
the way, specimens of herbs upstairs

01:30:01.890 --> 01:30:08.317
in the exhibits. Uh we have one
collection of dr Ortiz is, we have a

01:30:08.350 --> 01:30:15.027
collection of mine. We have a
collection that martin Enriquez made and

01:30:15.060 --> 01:30:20.706
they're really there for your
interest. I doubt if there's enough of a

01:30:20.739 --> 01:30:25.460
specimen for you to be able to go out
and make your own identification.

01:30:27.460 --> 01:30:29.460
There are some of the specimens that are pretty hard to come by. One of

01:30:33.000 --> 01:30:39.616
them is the casa. We treat. It's a
small bush and in uh before toothbrush

01:30:39.649 --> 01:30:43.487
and dental forests. And all these
other good things came about. Most of

01:30:43.520 --> 01:30:48.956
the people used to use this for gum
disease and also for the cleaning of

01:30:48.989 --> 01:30:53.427
the teeth. It's almost like pearl
drops. You can actually hear your teeth

01:30:53.460 --> 01:30:59.097
squeak if you run your tongue over it.
And and many in dealing with many

01:30:59.130 --> 01:31:04.756
of these herbs, I kind of make some
comparisons to uh some of the things

01:31:04.789 --> 01:31:09.607
that you see on television nowadays,
for example, most of the things that

01:31:09.640 --> 01:31:14.847
grow while have a certain amount of
their own cloverfield. Therefore many

01:31:14.880 --> 01:31:18.866
of the things that were used for
medicinal purposes can also be used for

01:31:18.899 --> 01:31:23.746
survival purposes for those of you
that know the desert quite well. You

01:31:23.779 --> 01:31:27.756
can survive on the desert. Believe you
me, you really can if you know what

01:31:27.789 --> 01:31:32.067
you're eating. So the best thing to do
is to be able to learn to identify

01:31:32.100 --> 01:31:36.256
one of the best books that I have seen
put out is this book here that

01:31:36.289 --> 01:31:42.977
identifies you all the herbs and the
properties contained there in. But

01:31:43.010 --> 01:31:46.607
like I say, many of the things that
you do see on the desert can also be

01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:51.906
used for survival purposes. And some
of these uh doctor teased by the way

01:31:51.939 --> 01:31:55.987
he jumped off the car and got this for
me, this is matured. So it's not

01:31:56.020 --> 01:32:00.126
very good at this point by when it's
fresh, this is what we call our wild

01:32:00.159 --> 01:32:05.017
spinach. Not only is it very good for
you vegetarians, but it also has

01:32:05.050 --> 01:32:09.147
quite a bit of chlorophyll in it. So
that's one of them. And the Virgo

01:32:09.180 --> 01:32:15.887
lage is another one. It is high in
protein and iron. And so this is a very

01:32:15.920 --> 01:32:19.517
melodic. Okay, this is not the one you
really want to eat. You can use the

01:32:19.550 --> 01:32:23.876
one that's a little bit finer. And I
can assure you among the mexican

01:32:23.909 --> 01:32:27.696
american people if you've eaten Verda
Lara's with. Okay, so you've had a

01:32:27.729 --> 01:32:32.987
rare treat because they really are
very good. Believe you, me getting back

01:32:33.020 --> 01:32:37.536
to the course that we we'd uh this
weed, you could, it's actually a piece

01:32:37.569 --> 01:32:42.857
of a bark and you can cut it off and
clean it off and start to chew it

01:32:42.890 --> 01:32:47.217
once you're chewing it it develops a
lot of foam in your mouth and it

01:32:47.250 --> 01:32:52.006
actually cleans your teeth. It's kind
of red tinted. It's almost like the

01:32:52.039 --> 01:32:55.647
pills that the doctors give you at one
time when you go into the dentist's

01:32:55.680 --> 01:32:59.656
office to identify the dirty areas in
your teeth or where you have

01:32:59.689 --> 01:33:04.206
cavities. However this weed you can
chew it a lot and spit it out and your

01:33:04.239 --> 01:33:08.927
mouth will remain not only clean and
they actually squeak and they do turn

01:33:08.960 --> 01:33:15.267
white. So course are we winning? It's
a little bush. It grows almost like

01:33:15.300 --> 01:33:20.376
a manzanita bush. But if they catch
you picking it in the national Forest

01:33:20.409 --> 01:33:24.956
they're gonna find you. It's kind of
hard to come by. But that's one of

01:33:24.989 --> 01:33:30.206
the identifiable ones that people were
using a long long time ago in order

01:33:30.239 --> 01:33:36.046
to cleanse uh Their mouths. Believe
you me they work

01:33:36.079 --> 01:33:44.079
of course. Are we C. U. C. O. S. I. S.
I causal wi goes away actually in a

01:33:45.029 --> 01:33:52.156
brief talk this afternoon we can't
train you as a botanist uh to identify

01:33:52.189 --> 01:33:58.527
plants and it really would be
necessary to do so because uh some of the

01:33:58.560 --> 01:34:03.977
good guys and some of the bad guys
look pretty much alike. We tend to

01:34:04.010 --> 01:34:09.546
leave these up to specialists and in
good and terrorismo in the mexican

01:34:09.579 --> 01:34:15.687
healing system. There is a whole
hierarchy of specialists. I think any

01:34:15.720 --> 01:34:23.446
woman knows something about plants I
or and herbs. Uh But there tends to

01:34:23.479 --> 01:34:28.557
be one person in the family who knows
the most. Um

01:34:28.590 --> 01:34:33.107
and if not in her family may be
related. Maybe it's a grandmother, maybe

01:34:33.140 --> 01:34:40.046
it's a godmother. Uh among those is
somebody who knows a little bit more

01:34:40.079 --> 01:34:46.576
and who is entitled to the title of
salvatore or so bad or if it's a man,

01:34:46.609 --> 01:34:51.506
what does this kind of person do
Julia?

01:34:51.539 --> 01:34:57.017
We have, I would say, I would say
three different categories. There is

01:34:57.050 --> 01:35:01.906
diarrhea vista, the person that deals
strictly with healing with herbs.

01:35:01.939 --> 01:35:06.156
There is the curandera that does the
healing with herbs as well as a

01:35:06.189 --> 01:35:10.567
little bit of Servando. And believe
you me the best person to get a lot of

01:35:10.600 --> 01:35:15.137
mental health counseling from even in
its primitive forms, most of the

01:35:15.170 --> 01:35:20.326
current areas which were very wise,
older people could really come across

01:35:20.359 --> 01:35:25.237
what a therapist nowadays would charge
a fantastic fortune fortune for.

01:35:25.270 --> 01:35:30.296
But believe you me the curandera uh
really plays an important part because

01:35:30.329 --> 01:35:35.357
she could combine the three things.
This was not only savannah bow the leg

01:35:35.390 --> 01:35:39.897
of the hands on the person, but the
using of the herbs as well as

01:35:39.930 --> 01:35:43.807
listening to many things that went on
within the home. And believe you me

01:35:43.840 --> 01:35:48.807
, she is really trained from
generation to generation to pick up many of

01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:53.567
the things I still go to a curandera,
a lot of people tell me, where are

01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:58.967
they even margarita has asked me are
there any practice in tears and I

01:35:59.000 --> 01:36:04.036
said yes, there's a couple in old
Pascua, one in old meron, a village, one

01:36:04.069 --> 01:36:11.126
in the new Pasco village, we have a
Salvador uh older chinese person that

01:36:11.159 --> 01:36:15.206
was living down toward the south side
of town, it's kind of a little bit

01:36:15.239 --> 01:36:19.897
hard to get to him because some of
them have gone underground because at

01:36:19.930 --> 01:36:25.126
one time is what's considered that it
was a no no to go to a doctor and to

01:36:25.159 --> 01:36:30.796
also can keep on going to a curandera
or harvest or a Salvador. One of the

01:36:30.829 --> 01:36:35.397
things that I have dedicated myself is
to try and try and prove to you

01:36:35.430 --> 01:36:40.017
that the two can be combined and that
they can work successfully together

01:36:40.050 --> 01:36:46.767
. I believe that if you take certain
people's beliefs from them either by

01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:52.517
ridicule or buy in a sense forbidding
them to go that you have kind of

01:36:52.550 --> 01:36:56.796
doubt the person a blow and they do
have set him back in some of his

01:36:56.829 --> 01:37:01.616
healing process. If you take beliefs
away from people, you're just about

01:37:01.649 --> 01:37:06.217
in a sense putting them down. I think
that that is very important that you

01:37:06.250 --> 01:37:11.027
listen to them with their beliefs and
not only with a curiosity but with

01:37:11.060 --> 01:37:17.847
general concern and genuine concern as
to who are they going to and what

01:37:17.880 --> 01:37:23.817
do they do and I think this is very
good because what I use as a

01:37:23.850 --> 01:37:29.017
supportive argument is that most of
the herbs and the methods that we use

01:37:29.050 --> 01:37:35.286
are non addictive. They are person to
person healing. They are using

01:37:35.319 --> 01:37:40.107
things that are natural and that is
not giving people tranquilizers hoping

01:37:40.140 --> 01:37:44.137
that the problem will go away. It's
dealing with the problem at the time.

01:37:44.170 --> 01:37:49.307
So this is where the curandera. I
think every person should have a co

01:37:49.340 --> 01:37:53.437
madre. Somebody that you can come
fight into many of the code and let us

01:37:53.470 --> 01:37:58.706
play this role and they're really
involved in listening to many of your

01:37:58.739 --> 01:38:04.116
problems. And sometimes just having
somebody to talk to is 50% of the

01:38:04.149 --> 01:38:09.277
battle. One of the mental diseases you
were speaking of the role of the

01:38:09.310 --> 01:38:15.456
curandera really is a psychiatrist. Um
sometimes people are very badly

01:38:15.489 --> 01:38:21.956
frightened and uh they can be
frightened by a traumatic incident which

01:38:21.989 --> 01:38:28.246
would be terrifying. And there are
specific kinds of ways to help someone

01:38:28.279 --> 01:38:34.996
who has been assessed avocado or is
suffering from Sesto from fright. What

01:38:35.029 --> 01:38:39.996
is done for these people. Some of
these methods you might consider a

01:38:40.029 --> 01:38:45.107
little bit far out but most of them
that couldn't let us deal with our

01:38:45.140 --> 01:38:53.140
actually giving the patient their time
looking at the patient, I had a

01:38:54.130 --> 01:38:58.256
little girl, I had a little girl and
we were involved in a car accident

01:38:58.289 --> 01:39:03.076
and she can we took her to ST mary's
of course the bump on her head was

01:39:03.109 --> 01:39:08.586
looked at and she was checked for
internal injuries and she was all right.

01:39:08.619 --> 01:39:13.376
However, within the following weeks
she lost weight. She was constantly

01:39:13.409 --> 01:39:18.576
frightened of getting into the car and
I took her to the curandera and

01:39:18.609 --> 01:39:23.277
Pasco village and she says part of the
child's friday is that you have

01:39:23.310 --> 01:39:28.796
forced her to get into the car. You
don't alleviate people's problems by

01:39:28.829 --> 01:39:33.937
forcing them to do things. You work
with the patient or the person and

01:39:33.970 --> 01:39:38.607
trying to get them to accept that not
all drivers that are on the highway

01:39:38.640 --> 01:39:42.567
are crazy. That there are some good
ones and there's some bad ones and you

01:39:42.600 --> 01:39:47.437
helped her overcome her fears. Much of
the sessions that I had with her

01:39:47.470 --> 01:39:52.807
were counseling sessions, but also the
fact that she says now this is the

01:39:52.840 --> 01:39:59.387
method that you might think is a
little bit uh well I would say strange,

01:39:59.420 --> 01:40:05.376
but the lady uh having no formal
medical training except those that I

01:40:05.409 --> 01:40:11.666
considered the jewels of tradition set
the baby down and she began to

01:40:11.699 --> 01:40:16.916
touch her head and to survive her. She
says my goodness, this little girl

01:40:16.949 --> 01:40:21.536
is only nine and just she's just jumpy
just to touch her and she says her

01:40:21.569 --> 01:40:26.756
nerves are a mess and she says I don't
blame her because after being in a

01:40:26.789 --> 01:40:31.496
car accident even I was afraid to get
into the car and drive. But being a

01:40:31.529 --> 01:40:35.147
little bit older my husband says get
in the car before you really get

01:40:35.180 --> 01:40:38.916
nervous and you'll never drive again
but with the baby being much smaller

01:40:38.949 --> 01:40:44.046
, I took her to this lady and she
began to do what we call the Servando

01:40:44.079 --> 01:40:49.406
the laying of the hands on the
patient. Unfortunately nowadays a lot of us

01:40:49.439 --> 01:40:54.326
have gotten away from that and we
prescribe rather than deal with the

01:40:54.359 --> 01:40:58.807
patient and really tend to the
patient. So the laying of the hand, she

01:40:58.840 --> 01:41:03.107
talked to the to the baby for quite a
long time, sat down, prepared a cup

01:41:03.140 --> 01:41:07.397
of tea for her and was able to talk to
her and I took her back two or

01:41:07.430 --> 01:41:11.557
three times. She says don't force her
to do things because one of these

01:41:11.590 --> 01:41:15.717
days she's gonna be so excited about
going somewhere and she won't even

01:41:15.750 --> 01:41:19.196
remember that she's going to have to
get in the car to get there. And

01:41:19.229 --> 01:41:23.347
that's exactly what happened. But the
lady was able to perceive her

01:41:23.380 --> 01:41:26.796
problem and say you're forcing the
child to do something that she is

01:41:26.829 --> 01:41:30.206
afraid of. To the point that sometimes
I used to say get in the car or

01:41:30.239 --> 01:41:36.796
stay home. The lady said patients and
dealing and teaching her to accept

01:41:36.829 --> 01:41:41.446
your problem. And if this is not a
form of mental health counseling, I

01:41:41.479 --> 01:41:47.376
don't know what it is, it's a very
primitive way, but a very effective way.

01:41:47.409 --> 01:41:53.196
I imagine that the tea that she
prescribed was to the assad orange

01:41:53.229 --> 01:42:00.366
blossom tea. Um oranges were brought
to the new world by the priests that

01:42:00.399 --> 01:42:06.086
came to mission eyes and orange
blossom tea has been known again since

01:42:06.119 --> 01:42:12.076
antiquity um to be very calming to the
heart and to the nerves because it

01:42:12.109 --> 01:42:17.506
was believed that the heart was the
seat of the soul. And when you're very

01:42:17.539 --> 01:42:21.977
badly frightened you're in danger of
losing your soul, it's going to fly

01:42:22.010 --> 01:42:26.786
away because there's nothing to attach
it. And so a T. Is made of orange

01:42:26.819 --> 01:42:32.677
blossom tea. I noticed that in our
cafeteria at the health sciences Center

01:42:32.710 --> 01:42:38.387
, they're serving a great many teas
and one of the T. S that they offer is

01:42:38.420 --> 01:42:45.036
orange blossom tea. I do recommend it.
Um Sometimes fight the requires

01:42:45.069 --> 01:42:52.166
even more stringent measures. And I'm
thinking about the use of a ho

01:42:52.199 --> 01:42:59.586
okay. Some people might say this is a
strange practice. I really don't

01:42:59.619 --> 01:43:05.637
think so. If you uh figure that
suppositories to some people might seem

01:43:05.670 --> 01:43:10.847
like a foreign object within the body.
They are. The same thing is how the

01:43:10.880 --> 01:43:17.876
use of garlic close is utilized. And
what happens is if a person has

01:43:17.909 --> 01:43:23.616
suffered a su store traumatic
experience. These are, our clothes are

01:43:23.649 --> 01:43:28.576
warmed in a little bit of oil and they
are inserted into the rectum, just

01:43:28.609 --> 01:43:33.086
like a suppository would be if the
child has suffered a traumatic

01:43:33.119 --> 01:43:37.887
experience. The clove of garlic will
immediately almost like as if by

01:43:37.920 --> 01:43:45.086
section be taken into the body. If he
hasn't, the body is in no way going

01:43:45.119 --> 01:43:50.076
to accept that clove of garlic.
Believe you me, the body's mechanisms also

01:43:50.109 --> 01:43:56.817
respond immediately. And I have uh
used repositories in in order to bring

01:43:56.850 --> 01:44:01.967
down fever in Children. And instead of
giving them sometimes orally, they

01:44:02.000 --> 01:44:06.756
do it through a suppository to direct
them. This is the same way that the

01:44:06.789 --> 01:44:11.737
garlic clothes are used. And people
say, oh my God, garlic, believe you me

01:44:11.770 --> 01:44:17.937
, A garlic clove clove is much smaller
than the animal probe that is used.

01:44:17.970 --> 01:44:22.626
And people say, what a strange
practice. It's really not strange because

01:44:22.659 --> 01:44:27.946
they use a suppository to us might
just be as strange as it is for you to

01:44:27.979 --> 01:44:33.227
accept the clove of garlic, believe
me, but the comparison is there, it's

01:44:33.260 --> 01:44:39.956
the same principle, but with different
ingredients. Okay. Mhm.

01:44:39.989 --> 01:44:45.807
Sometimes um Children are frightened
and sometimes adults are frightened

01:44:45.840 --> 01:44:50.656
and these can be treated, but
sometimes their illnesses are more physical.

01:44:50.689 --> 01:44:58.689
You spoke about cosmos and cosmos can
be had by women after childbirth,

01:44:58.989 --> 01:45:06.989
by small babies, by Children and
adults after surgery or dental work. And

01:45:07.329 --> 01:45:10.397
the treatment isn't very comfortable,
but the illness certainly isn't very

01:45:10.430 --> 01:45:15.557
comfortable either. I wonder if you
talk about that.

01:45:15.590 --> 01:45:21.317
Some of the possibles take on various
forms. It is one of our beliefs that

01:45:21.350 --> 01:45:27.586
after childbirth that if a pas mo
occurs or certain cold temperatures

01:45:27.619 --> 01:45:33.597
invade a woman's body that a lot of
vaginal itching occurs and most of the

01:45:33.630 --> 01:45:37.616
, of the elderly people that could and
eras and I had seven. Children.

01:45:37.649 --> 01:45:41.916
Believe you me, my mother in law was a
curandera and I have a picture of

01:45:41.949 --> 01:45:45.546
her in an article that was written
about her that I would like to display

01:45:45.579 --> 01:45:50.017
as soon as my Children were born. Many
of the things that I wanted to do

01:45:50.050 --> 01:45:54.246
where I know. No, I remember she used
to come over and put some sulfur

01:45:54.279 --> 01:45:57.057
powder in my slippers.

01:45:57.090 --> 01:46:04.506
She never used laughing. I think that
some of you are going to uh kind of

01:46:04.539 --> 01:46:09.046
be familiar with the things that I'm
talking about because like I say

01:46:09.079 --> 01:46:13.857
family traditions are the greatest
jewels. And whether I used to believe

01:46:13.890 --> 01:46:20.147
in plasma or not believe in me, I
believe about it now. Uh she would put

01:46:20.180 --> 01:46:24.746
sulfur in in the slippers. And I
always say keep your feet warm. Uh that

01:46:24.779 --> 01:46:29.677
was one form of plasma. The vaginal
itching with many of the things that

01:46:29.710 --> 01:46:35.206
we call like king cual or various
rashes we felt that that was brought on

01:46:35.239 --> 01:46:40.536
a plasma within the body because of
cold within the body. Just like heat

01:46:40.569 --> 01:46:47.977
rash is a form of heat hitting the
body or the skin layers. So we, I

01:46:48.010 --> 01:46:53.717
firmly believe that diseases run in
hot and cold varieties. There are

01:46:53.750 --> 01:46:59.397
those that I immediately say cold has
invaded the body and with others

01:46:59.430 --> 01:47:04.666
like your fevers and various rashes,
heat has invaded the body. And I

01:47:04.699 --> 01:47:08.927
really believe this because if you
stand to reason some of the things that

01:47:08.960 --> 01:47:12.967
we do in our homes and some of the
things that the doctors prescribe are

01:47:13.000 --> 01:47:19.046
one and the same thing. For example in
heat stroke, we always used to say

01:47:19.079 --> 01:47:24.187
that if clothing can keep out the
cold, it can also keep out the heat. And

01:47:24.220 --> 01:47:29.086
I think that some of the people that
dangerously go out and sit in the sun

01:47:29.119 --> 01:47:34.156
and expect to tan and usually wind up
being sunburned are really exposing

01:47:34.189 --> 01:47:39.946
themselves to too much at one time. So
you never used to see the people

01:47:39.979 --> 01:47:45.107
that were out in the farms actually
bear down to their midriffs. In fact,

01:47:45.140 --> 01:47:51.536
you used to see them with what is now
the most used cloth which is denim

01:47:51.569 --> 01:47:55.967
and every household had a young, how
many of you are familiar with the

01:47:56.000 --> 01:48:02.177
word jump everybody old one and one of
the compass was the jackets that

01:48:02.210 --> 01:48:06.967
you see most of the train engineers
wearing. And even though it was hot,

01:48:07.000 --> 01:48:12.906
people kept their bodies cool and
voice by the sweat generated by the

01:48:12.939 --> 01:48:18.217
clothing which is nature's way of
cooling the body if you're not wearing

01:48:18.250 --> 01:48:22.437
anything and you start sweating and
you dehydrate, you dehydrate period.

01:48:22.470 --> 01:48:28.817
Believe you me, that's fever. Okay.
Another common sense logic that was

01:48:28.850 --> 01:48:34.246
also used was always keeping your
mouth wet and the best way to do it in

01:48:34.279 --> 01:48:38.887
summertime, regardless if you're
walking short or long distances is take a

01:48:38.920 --> 01:48:43.387
clean pebble and always keep it in
your mouth and it will always generate

01:48:43.420 --> 01:48:48.817
saliva. Therefore you will not get
waterlogged. Otherwise you're going to

01:48:48.850 --> 01:48:53.906
be swishing as you walk and really
feeling tired because you can actually

01:48:53.939 --> 01:48:59.347
hear the water. You not only get
tired. You also use a lot of your extra

01:48:59.380 --> 01:49:05.336
energies. Believe you me, why don't
you mention insulation while you're at

01:49:05.369 --> 01:49:10.446
it? Well, this is like heat stroke. We
have insulation and in Tbilisi on

01:49:10.479 --> 01:49:15.977
and a few others Fiona's but it has to
do with the same thing that I'm

01:49:16.010 --> 01:49:22.727
speaking about. And that is much of
the home remedies are good common

01:49:22.760 --> 01:49:29.876
sense and just being able to determine
which is good common sense. Many of

01:49:29.909 --> 01:49:34.916
the Children coming running and
they're over uh heated there over tired,

01:49:34.949 --> 01:49:39.206
they're over sweating and they come in
and immediately flip on the cooler.

01:49:39.239 --> 01:49:44.326
And I have actually seen kids go into
convulsions because the cold air

01:49:44.359 --> 01:49:48.647
hits them all of a sudden they start
and that is no way to do you really,

01:49:48.680 --> 01:49:53.237
we really have to cool off even before
getting artificial cooling off.

01:49:53.270 --> 01:49:57.737
Otherwise you're gonna wind up with
problems.

01:49:57.770 --> 01:50:03.057
You spoke about being one of seven.
Nowadays, women go to the hospital to

01:50:03.090 --> 01:50:08.237
have their babies. But uh in olden
days before there weren't any hospitals

01:50:08.270 --> 01:50:14.536
or before uh it was possible to go,
most women had their babies at home.

01:50:14.569 --> 01:50:18.326
 What was that? Like?

01:50:18.359 --> 01:50:24.437
My mother in law just passed away at
the age of 96 and all her Children

01:50:24.470 --> 01:50:29.727
were born at home with midwives and uh
I was born at home and I was

01:50:29.760 --> 01:50:33.217
delivered by my brother. I really
can't tell you about that experience.

01:50:33.250 --> 01:50:37.477
But I can tell you some of the
experiences that I have witnessed lately.

01:50:37.510 --> 01:50:39.517
Uh

01:50:39.550 --> 01:50:44.717
very frankly speaking, they say that
nobody can give birth to a child

01:50:44.750 --> 01:50:48.826
better than a woman does and unless
there are complications that then a

01:50:48.859 --> 01:50:54.086
woman really needs to have somebody uh
about that will be able to help the

01:50:54.119 --> 01:50:59.887
woman. However, in most of the
patients that we were attending to in 1970

01:50:59.920 --> 01:51:04.687
, where most of the women that had all
had their children's at home, we

01:51:04.720 --> 01:51:08.777
were very, very few of us that had
actually gone to two different

01:51:08.810 --> 01:51:16.376
hospitals. And uh very frankly
speaking, the curandera, the party era was

01:51:16.409 --> 01:51:20.996
very well trained. I believe that one
of the most famous one is the one

01:51:21.029 --> 01:51:27.796
that in Tucson at least was Lola, that
always helped dr alan with his

01:51:27.829 --> 01:51:32.836
deliveries. And she was very well
qualified to go out and deliver the

01:51:32.869 --> 01:51:37.187
Children at home. And like I say, most
of the babies were delivered at

01:51:37.220 --> 01:51:42.057
home. Uh, women more or less expected
it and they knew that they weren't

01:51:42.090 --> 01:51:46.196
going to be able to afford a hospital
unless they were cunning like I was

01:51:46.229 --> 01:51:51.017
, I had my Children at various
hospitals with various doctors because I

01:51:51.050 --> 01:51:55.437
always hold the last one from the
previous birth, believing me after seven

01:51:55.470 --> 01:52:00.857
kids. So most of the Children just
knew that they were going to uh most of

01:52:00.890 --> 01:52:04.227
the women knew that they were going to
be able to deliver at home and that

01:52:04.260 --> 01:52:09.286
apartheid era would be there. My
mother in law was 93 years old when she

01:52:09.319 --> 01:52:15.246
delivered her last baby before the
fire rescue squad or anybody got there.

01:52:15.279 --> 01:52:18.546
By the time they got there, she had
delivered the baby, tied the

01:52:18.579 --> 01:52:22.147
umbilical cord, washed her hands and
was walking away when the fire

01:52:22.180 --> 01:52:26.467
department uh drove by and then they
sent the mother and the child to the

01:52:26.500 --> 01:52:31.496
hospital for their checkup. But she
had done an excellent job. What kinds

01:52:31.529 --> 01:52:36.366
of things were recommended for a woman
to keep herself healthy while she

01:52:36.399 --> 01:52:41.666
was pregnant? What kinds of things did
she not do and do? Well, like I say

01:52:41.699 --> 01:52:45.446
, some of the family traditions who
are not always good for you. I

01:52:45.479 --> 01:52:48.887
remember that when I was pregnant,
they used to say now there's two of you

01:52:48.920 --> 01:52:52.227
, you must eat more and more and more.
There was times when I didn't feel

01:52:52.260 --> 01:52:56.046
like eating and yet I didn't want to
hurt anybody's feelings. So I used to

01:52:56.079 --> 01:53:03.506
sit there and gouge myself. Uh some of
the things that were, I say, common

01:53:03.539 --> 01:53:08.597
sense in any, in anybody's culture is
don't lift heavy stuff, take care of

01:53:08.630 --> 01:53:13.737
yourself, get plenty of rest, uh rest
when the Children are out of the

01:53:13.770 --> 01:53:18.326
house, you know, take some time for
yourself really. And what can you do

01:53:18.359 --> 01:53:21.677
while you're preparing for your baby?
Nature is taking care of everything

01:53:21.710 --> 01:53:25.967
within you? And outwardly you're the
one that's responsible for taking

01:53:26.000 --> 01:53:30.206
care of your own cleanliness, your
arrest, and your good diet. The rest

01:53:30.239 --> 01:53:34.946
nature does pretty well. Were there
any herbs that you took? No, not

01:53:34.979 --> 01:53:40.187
really. What about as you got near
labor? What about when you got near to

01:53:40.220 --> 01:53:45.847
labor? Well, I can't say that I would
vouch as to what would happen at

01:53:45.880 --> 01:53:50.607
home. I do know that uh, when I got
near to labor, my mother in law would

01:53:50.640 --> 01:53:55.116
always come over and just try to make
me as comfortable as possible.

01:53:55.149 --> 01:53:58.326
Because usually all of us that have
Children, we know we began with a

01:53:58.359 --> 01:54:04.277
backache and just we not as, you know,
everything is so depressing, even

01:54:04.310 --> 01:54:08.446
though we're waiting for that great
expectation. But most of it was just

01:54:08.479 --> 01:54:11.546
learning to take care of yourself. I
remember she used to walk right

01:54:11.579 --> 01:54:15.807
alongside of me and I was always
rubbing my back until I got ready to go

01:54:15.840 --> 01:54:22.137
to the hospital. But you can't say,
you know, you just go along. But like

01:54:22.170 --> 01:54:25.687
I say, nature takes care of what's
going on inside. You take care of

01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:31.206
what's going outside cleanliness rest
and a good diet. Believe you me, uh

01:54:31.239 --> 01:54:37.967
, sometimes after a baby is born the
last child that was had been the baby

01:54:38.000 --> 01:54:44.796
and is now no longer the baby uh
suffers from jealousy and suffers to the

01:54:44.829 --> 01:54:52.829
degree that that child gets sick. Uh
child may get be called. The Shadow

01:54:54.539 --> 01:54:57.406
cheaply.

01:54:57.439 --> 01:55:02.307
How many of you are familiar with the
word cheaply.

01:55:02.340 --> 01:55:07.817
It means that the child becomes very,
very much attached to the mother and

01:55:07.850 --> 01:55:12.956
that the child can sense that there is
something happening within the

01:55:12.989 --> 01:55:20.206
household. Unfortunately, many of the
people we adults contribute to the

01:55:20.239 --> 01:55:24.866
behavior of this child because we say
you're not going to be the favorite

01:55:24.899 --> 01:55:30.166
one instead of helping the child
except the new baby in a positive way.

01:55:30.199 --> 01:55:34.076
Like mama's gonna have a baby and you
being a little bit bigger, you can

01:55:34.109 --> 01:55:39.857
help we wind up making fun of the
child instead of helping the child

01:55:39.890 --> 01:55:45.906
adjust in a positive way. And that is
part of mental health counseling

01:55:45.939 --> 01:55:51.126
because Children do get depressed,
they do get depressed because they're

01:55:51.159 --> 01:55:56.246
being thrust in a new role which they
have no control over. Its an

01:55:56.279 --> 01:56:01.017
understanding between father and
mother that now they want another child

01:56:01.050 --> 01:56:06.777
and little ones do get what we call a
factory Seattle's and it is a form

01:56:06.810 --> 01:56:14.317
of depression. Some of the Children
really suffer it from more than others

01:56:14.350 --> 01:56:18.227
and they really get depressed, they
become withdrawn, they lose their

01:56:18.260 --> 01:56:25.286
appetite or they get very what we call
whiny, everything that you seem to

01:56:25.319 --> 01:56:30.256
want to do for, they whine about
everything and this is a form of

01:56:30.289 --> 01:56:35.446
depression because you kind of feel
that you're being shoved aside. I

01:56:35.479 --> 01:56:38.817
don't think that it's any different
than with the husband. Sure, the

01:56:38.850 --> 01:56:43.546
husband wants a baby, but once the
baby is born than he in a sense,

01:56:43.579 --> 01:56:47.987
becomes very defensive and depressed
like the baby takes up all of your

01:56:48.020 --> 01:56:53.777
time or he's always whining or what
what, what, what, what, so it happens

01:56:53.810 --> 01:57:00.027
to all ages. This is one of the things
that we have been able to involve

01:57:00.060 --> 01:57:07.006
the whole family in. I think this is
very important because spending time

01:57:07.039 --> 01:57:12.017
with the patient and learning to talk
to the patient in your own way is

01:57:12.050 --> 01:57:17.717
the best form of therapy. We have been
able to involve the whole family by

01:57:17.750 --> 01:57:22.897
actually making certain members of the
family responsible for a certain

01:57:22.930 --> 01:57:28.357
degree of responsiveness and bringing
back into the fold that child, which

01:57:28.390 --> 01:57:33.446
we ourselves have ostracized by our
own comments. So this is a form of

01:57:33.479 --> 01:57:39.607
Teresia. Some of the treatment for
Teresa for Children has traditionally

01:57:39.640 --> 01:57:46.217
involved the color red uh, in the
really very traditional, very old

01:57:46.250 --> 01:57:53.286
fashioned families. A bath is prepared
for the baby out of uh herb, the

01:57:53.319 --> 01:57:59.607
root of which turns the water red,
brazil would and that's curie to look

01:57:59.640 --> 01:58:07.640
at or buying a red dress or a red
necklace or something of that sort

01:58:09.119 --> 01:58:15.487
like um, some of the decorators
nowadays say that in order to really help

01:58:15.520 --> 01:58:20.696
patients and uh, new traditions, even
within the more modern settings,

01:58:20.729 --> 01:58:26.626
they say certain colors. Excite
certain colors. A restful, certain colors

01:58:26.659 --> 01:58:33.687
bring joy. That red is what we call a
standalone mystery to the whole

01:58:33.720 --> 01:58:37.906
family used to get involved. And I
think this is part of the secret of

01:58:37.939 --> 01:58:42.876
being able to involve the family or a
member of the family. And we always

01:58:42.909 --> 01:58:49.956
used to say a salute to colorado
because we felt that red was joyous kind

01:58:49.989 --> 01:58:54.786
of color, but not only that the
important thing is that that child knows

01:58:54.819 --> 01:59:00.357
that he is the one that's being paid
attention to and that that red dress

01:59:00.390 --> 01:59:08.390
or shirt is for him and you try and
make one thing for one child and

01:59:08.539 --> 01:59:12.187
you're going to see that she or he
immediately gets involved in what

01:59:12.220 --> 01:59:17.817
you're sewing or doing for that child.
And part of that therapy is making

01:59:17.850 --> 01:59:23.706
that child feel important and pull him
out of his depression. So yes, it

01:59:23.739 --> 01:59:29.586
is very traditional even in our
religious ideas and are relics that we use.

01:59:29.619 --> 01:59:35.477
Most of the relics that we use are
encased in little pieces of red cloth

01:59:35.510 --> 01:59:39.817
that I either pin to my under slipper
to my brower to my purse or wherever

01:59:39.850 --> 01:59:44.647
I want to carry it. This is part of my
tradition and I happen to think red

01:59:44.680 --> 01:59:49.336
is exciting. So do men men constantly
say, have you seen that blonde in

01:59:49.369 --> 01:59:52.956
that red dress? They never say, have
you seen that blonde in the blue

01:59:52.989 --> 01:59:58.206
dress. So it is an attention getting
color and kids like it just like any

01:59:58.239 --> 02:00:02.916
other person. We're really not that
far separated from each other. I think

02:00:02.949 --> 02:00:07.916
we're saying the same things. Only
some of us charged more for what we do.

02:00:07.949 --> 02:00:14.616
Some of us charge nothing. You speak
often of the similarity between what

02:00:14.649 --> 02:00:19.717
scientific medicine has learned and
what traditional medicine has known

02:00:19.750 --> 02:00:25.017
all along. One of the kinds of
illnesses that little Children suffer a

02:00:25.050 --> 02:00:30.286
great deal from his diarrhea. Did the
CIA usually doesn't have diarrhea,

02:00:30.319 --> 02:00:38.319
but there are the diseases uh shortly
after birth of uh host, the child

02:00:38.399 --> 02:00:43.267
could become a con. And I think some
of the ideas there, we've kind of

02:00:43.300 --> 02:00:46.977
changed our minds on

02:00:47.010 --> 02:00:53.467
the way that I understand pose and
decent area has been a certain degree

02:00:53.500 --> 02:00:58.506
of cold within the system. Whether
it's brought on by something that maybe

02:00:58.539 --> 02:01:04.666
the mother has done or by bacteria.
But this entire area is actually cold

02:01:04.699 --> 02:01:11.086
within the stomach and the bows and
for those of us that have studied and

02:01:11.119 --> 02:01:15.687
when I go to a curandera and she gives
me something for the Children, she

02:01:15.720 --> 02:01:21.286
says watch their stools closely. Tell
me how they look now as far as

02:01:21.319 --> 02:01:26.857
polkas and this imperia is concerned.
The hoses when the child grunts. But

02:01:26.890 --> 02:01:32.956
jojo's combined with a certain amount
of, I would say when the child has a

02:01:32.989 --> 02:01:37.576
bowel movement. I think happens to do
with bacteria. The other type of

02:01:37.609 --> 02:01:43.937
glucose where the child is touched
within the 40 days of the idea to uh of

02:01:43.970 --> 02:01:49.696
abstention really from sexual contact
with her husband after birth is more

02:01:49.729 --> 02:01:55.756
or less I think that is thought about
in brewery a scandal Charles holo is

02:01:55.789 --> 02:02:01.477
up corn. That is two entirely
different things boho with this interior and

02:02:01.510 --> 02:02:07.097
about movement is something that is
happening physiologically. Uh, jojo's

02:02:07.130 --> 02:02:10.666
as far as beliefs

02:02:10.699 --> 02:02:17.317
r is another thing. Then let me make a
comparison. How many of you saw the

02:02:17.350 --> 02:02:19.666
exorcist?

02:02:19.699 --> 02:02:25.107
How many of you saw the exorcist?
Nobody? Uh, that meant that you know

02:02:25.140 --> 02:02:30.406
that there was a devil evil spirit
within the person's body. Okay, that

02:02:30.439 --> 02:02:34.267
was not dreamed up by a mexican
american. I assure you he didn't write the

02:02:34.300 --> 02:02:39.086
exorcist. But these are some of the
things that we also believe caste in

02:02:39.119 --> 02:02:45.307
India Vlado stay in daniel. We believe
in obsession or that people can be

02:02:45.340 --> 02:02:49.677
obsessed. At least I do. I'm not
speaking for any other mexican american

02:02:49.710 --> 02:02:55.857
and indian people present. I do. I
feel that certain behaviors cannot if

02:02:55.890 --> 02:03:01.107
they cannot be explained
physiologically or psychologically. I really

02:03:01.140 --> 02:03:05.267
believe that there are other forces
that gives us these screwing ways of

02:03:05.300 --> 02:03:09.946
behavior. Believe you me, I don't know
how you feel but until somebody can

02:03:09.979 --> 02:03:17.206
prove to me otherwise, these are my
beliefs. Okay, well let me tell you

02:03:17.239 --> 02:03:21.786
when I when I happen to feel that
there are people that act strange and

02:03:21.819 --> 02:03:26.196
I'm not talking a strange clear gay,
that type of thing, they are really

02:03:26.229 --> 02:03:31.156
violent people. One of the things is,
is to try to get help for the people.

02:03:31.189 --> 02:03:35.267
If it's psychological or if it's
physiological because of a brain tumor

02:03:35.300 --> 02:03:40.427
or various things like that. I don't
feel that I'm qualified to be able to

02:03:40.460 --> 02:03:44.597
deal with the person. I believe. I
have seen it in action that certain

02:03:44.630 --> 02:03:51.166
people can talk people into care well
or other of us cannot. You know,

02:03:51.199 --> 02:03:55.116
it's up to the individual to know what
he wants to do. But if I see

02:03:55.149 --> 02:04:00.807
violent people that I really feel are
violent, unfortunately, society has

02:04:00.840 --> 02:04:05.357
given us a set of laws by which we are
called either standard or deviant

02:04:05.390 --> 02:04:10.756
behavior. I don't deal with deviant
people, frankly speaking, I feel that

02:04:10.789 --> 02:04:15.246
law provides a mechanism to take care
of people like that. But in my own

02:04:15.279 --> 02:04:19.727
belief that somebody tells me, oh, he
just went berserk last night's time

02:04:19.760 --> 02:04:24.677
via Bolado. It either has to be
because he was either on something or

02:04:24.710 --> 02:04:29.217
that's just his behavior and he has
now become a violent person. However,

02:04:29.250 --> 02:04:34.336
at the root cause of everything,
something is causing it. This is what I

02:04:34.369 --> 02:04:40.807
sincerely believe you're talking about
being on something. And I noticed

02:04:40.840 --> 02:04:44.946
that there's one herb down there that
you haven't shown us yet. It's a

02:04:44.979 --> 02:04:52.017
very dangerous herb and it's an old
Aztec herb. Um, and uh, it's something

02:04:52.050 --> 02:04:58.406
that is quite a beautiful herb. But I
hope that uh, you don't

02:04:58.439 --> 02:05:03.756
misunderstand that by our
demonstration of it both here and with pictures

02:05:03.789 --> 02:05:08.756
uh that we feel that this is something
that should be in everybody's home

02:05:08.789 --> 02:05:15.067
kit. This was used by the Aztecs as an
anesthetic when they performed

02:05:15.100 --> 02:05:22.987
operations. When they stitched up
lacerations, when they had to alter the

02:05:23.020 --> 02:05:28.137
consciousness of someone who was
undergoing treatment. It's not too useful

02:05:28.170 --> 02:05:30.256
today.

02:05:30.289 --> 02:05:38.289
You all know it right. Jimson weed. I
wanted to um, to kind of make some

02:05:38.930 --> 02:05:44.277
comparison since I've been making
comparisons all along. For example. Uh

02:05:44.310 --> 02:05:50.687
now we have very sophisticated
equipment within a Western medicine. But

02:05:50.720 --> 02:05:56.336
I'm not making a plea for people to
get involved in and herbs and and

02:05:56.369 --> 02:06:01.847
practices that maybe you are wary of.
Or maybe you are frightened of. Or

02:06:01.880 --> 02:06:07.326
maybe you feel you don't understand
enough of. Okay. But I am saying

02:06:07.359 --> 02:06:12.607
though that most of the things that
have been handed down for thousands of

02:06:12.640 --> 02:06:20.187
years have worked, especially if you
find a person that or persons that

02:06:20.220 --> 02:06:26.017
does know what he is doing. Some of
the very primitive things are now

02:06:26.050 --> 02:06:33.267
coming back into the fold of medicine
itself. One of the tracking systems

02:06:33.300 --> 02:06:39.017
that we had. And even when I was a
little girl, I had the habit of going

02:06:39.050 --> 02:06:43.916
out into the fields by my home And I
used to eat a lot of chatter as a

02:06:43.949 --> 02:06:48.796
real tiny little tomato like things
and tomatillos which are little

02:06:48.829 --> 02:06:53.227
tomatoes and some of these wild
berries that grow out here. And I was just

02:06:53.260 --> 02:06:56.687
delighted to see this because I hadn't
seen them since I was a little girl.

02:06:56.720 --> 02:07:01.177
They no longer go around Tucson.
There's too many houses around there via

02:07:01.210 --> 02:07:08.286
chattels. And tomatillos gave you a
constipation you never wish you had.

02:07:08.319 --> 02:07:11.977
And I remember my aunt used to tell me
oh my God she's been in the

02:07:12.010 --> 02:07:17.427
machado's or tomato Mateos again. And
naturally here came castor oils to

02:07:17.460 --> 02:07:25.177
unplug me. Believe you me. However if
there was an impact mint or diarrhea

02:07:25.210 --> 02:07:30.017
we did have a tracking system and that
was we used to take olive oil with

02:07:30.050 --> 02:07:35.296
a little piece of bluey and melted and
give it to the child. If the child

02:07:35.329 --> 02:07:39.246
could pass it out in his ball
movement, we know he didn't have an impact

02:07:39.279 --> 02:07:45.206
mint. If it remained within the body
came Castor oil time. Believe you me

02:07:45.239 --> 02:07:51.956
or going to the curandera to get your
to get your spine pulled and the

02:07:51.989 --> 02:07:56.456
impact mint more or less identified.
That is one of the tracking systems.

02:07:56.489 --> 02:08:01.496
Now we have more sophisticated barium
enemas and all these G. I. Series

02:08:01.529 --> 02:08:07.256
that you're given. But ours was
primitive. But it worked. The other one is

02:08:07.289 --> 02:08:12.767
that now there is a doctor who very
recently wrote a big article on

02:08:12.800 --> 02:08:19.416
diarrhea and the treatment of
diarrhea. Okay many, many years ago as far

02:08:19.449 --> 02:08:23.517
back as my grandmother and my my
mother in law and we were treating

02:08:23.550 --> 02:08:28.097
diarrhea the same way that this doctor
has now written a book about. We

02:08:28.130 --> 02:08:32.817
always believed that if that was a
bacteria in there, you got rid of it.

02:08:32.850 --> 02:08:37.616
You don't give ample gel or DiGel or
every other kind of gel to contain

02:08:37.649 --> 02:08:42.906
the diarrhea. You clean up the system
first and then you give something to

02:08:42.939 --> 02:08:47.536
take care of the hurt muscles in the
stomach. And this was happening

02:08:47.569 --> 02:08:52.876
before this doctor and I was born. So
you see some of our systems have

02:08:52.909 --> 02:08:57.217
been working. Another herb that grows
along here that was used very much

02:08:57.250 --> 02:09:02.737
for that was for me to uh did you ever
gather your own or do you go to the

02:09:02.770 --> 02:09:07.927
pharmacist to buy that? Well we used
to get our own. It used to grow wild

02:09:07.960 --> 02:09:13.567
all along Simpson Simpson Street and
along the railroad tracks. And for me

02:09:13.600 --> 02:09:17.307
to is just like weak. You wait until
it dries, you pick it up and you hit

02:09:17.340 --> 02:09:22.916
it against a clean cloth and all the
red little uh like wheat germs fall.

02:09:22.949 --> 02:09:27.597
And that is used once it is wet, you
can make it into a tea by soaking it

02:09:27.630 --> 02:09:33.387
in water. It develops a kind of a
slimy feeling and it really cleans out

02:09:33.420 --> 02:09:39.557
the intestine. It really does. It is
also used as a as a kool Aid. A

02:09:39.590 --> 02:09:44.656
refreshing teeth to bring about
coolness to the body without really

02:09:44.689 --> 02:09:49.956
involving yourself with a lot of uh
saccharin and all this other good

02:09:49.989 --> 02:09:53.737
stuff that is now put into food.

02:09:53.770 --> 02:09:59.046
Mhm. Something that you and I have
talked about is the fact that there's

02:09:59.079 --> 02:10:07.027
been a lot of publicity given lately
Uh to an herb that killed two babies.

02:10:07.060 --> 02:10:15.060
Uh The herb was identified actually
was in the death of one child and in

02:10:17.840 --> 02:10:25.696
the illness of another. Um The
particular herb is called Sin Nishio. Have

02:10:25.729 --> 02:10:32.536
you ever heard of Cynthia being used
on purpose for curing internally? Not

02:10:32.569 --> 02:10:37.357
in Arizona. Believe you me if those
two deaths of the of the Children have

02:10:37.390 --> 02:10:43.746
occurred, I believe it was because of
the mistake of the person that ship

02:10:43.779 --> 02:10:50.027
the herbs to Arizona. Because bordeaux
lova and Sin issues are not one of

02:10:50.060 --> 02:10:55.296
the things that is predominantly used
by the mexican american family. It

02:10:55.329 --> 02:11:00.826
is not, it is very very rarely used.
So whatever happened, it was an

02:11:00.859 --> 02:11:05.406
unfortunate incident. But the mistake
was not made by the parent. The

02:11:05.439 --> 02:11:12.427
mistake was made by the person that
shipped the herbs to Arizona with

02:11:12.460 --> 02:11:16.897
warning. The druggist really what he
was putting on his shelves, he simply

02:11:16.930 --> 02:11:21.796
got the wrong stuff. Uh Has this ever
been known that scientifically

02:11:21.829 --> 02:11:27.637
prepared pills and intravenous
solutions have been mislabeled? Yes,

02:11:27.670 --> 02:11:32.467
there's just a case up in new york or
some nurses were convicted and

02:11:32.500 --> 02:11:38.847
sentenced but also Western medicine.
Many times we have severe our

02:11:38.880 --> 02:11:43.836
reactions to antibiotics, especially
penicillin. Some people have severe

02:11:43.869 --> 02:11:47.807
reactions. Some people have severe
reactions to some of the prescribed

02:11:47.840 --> 02:11:53.277
drugs. And I guess what I am saying is
that all other medicinal herbs

02:11:53.310 --> 02:11:58.086
should not suffer. Those that have
been proven and are good should not

02:11:58.119 --> 02:12:03.196
suffer because of the bad publicity
that was given this case of waddle

02:12:03.229 --> 02:12:09.166
over and send ASIO. Otherwise we would
be saying why penicillin of the

02:12:09.199 --> 02:12:13.456
market because various people have
gotten severe reactions to it. So I

02:12:13.489 --> 02:12:17.796
don't think it's fair. The track
record of most of these drugs have been

02:12:17.829 --> 02:12:24.967
good. But my advice is you know what
you're taking and the keys, most of

02:12:25.000 --> 02:12:33.000
them are very safe. Minty is used a
lot cinnamon is used a lot uh Tanzania

02:12:33.180 --> 02:12:39.546
is used a lot camomile to Europeans.
Sarko is used a lot. All of these are

02:12:39.579 --> 02:12:46.677
safe things they really are. But if
you are in let's say in doubt about

02:12:46.710 --> 02:12:51.656
what you're taking don't take it. I
wish I could say the same advice for

02:12:51.689 --> 02:12:55.637
for the kids that combined drugs with
alcohol and many of the prescribed

02:12:55.670 --> 02:13:00.626
medicines. But you know that's kind of
hard to do since it's so prevailing

02:13:00.659 --> 02:13:06.647
among us. But one of the things that
that I really feel is that part of

02:13:06.680 --> 02:13:12.286
the herbal healing deals with dealing
with people, the laying of hands on

02:13:12.319 --> 02:13:17.217
people being very genuinely concerned
with what has happened to that

02:13:17.250 --> 02:13:22.107
person is the next human being right
next to you. And I think that that's

02:13:22.140 --> 02:13:27.737
50% of the healing process.
Unfortunately nowadays we're so much in a

02:13:27.770 --> 02:13:33.397
hurry to do so many things and it's a
faster pace of life that even in our

02:13:33.430 --> 02:13:38.416
own clinics we just don't spend enough
time with people. And what we have

02:13:38.449 --> 02:13:42.666
taken care of physiologically many
times comes back to us as a

02:13:42.699 --> 02:13:47.317
psychological will because we don't
have the time to spend with people. I

02:13:47.350 --> 02:13:52.857
would say that home remedies allows
you the luxury uh fixing that cup of

02:13:52.890 --> 02:13:58.147
tea, listening to problems and and
really get involved in home nursing by

02:13:58.180 --> 02:14:02.897
following instructions and and looking
at what is happening to your child

02:14:02.930 --> 02:14:07.086
and really getting yourself involved
nowadays we seem to be too busy to

02:14:07.119 --> 02:14:13.277
listen to human beings. Okay. I think
this is about all that we wanted to

02:14:13.310 --> 02:14:21.237
say in an organized kind of way. Are
there perhaps questions and if you

02:14:21.270 --> 02:14:25.906
ask them, would you stand up and ask
them clearly? Because as you know the

02:14:25.939 --> 02:14:33.939
acoustics uh here are difficult.

02:14:36.840 --> 02:14:41.437
Oh no,

02:14:41.470 --> 02:14:46.137
you have to do this. She

02:14:46.170 --> 02:14:52.696
named some of these are just these are
spinach. I

02:14:52.729 --> 02:14:56.206
have got this fine

02:14:56.239 --> 02:15:03.887
uh dr pay Alvarez Gonzalez. I don't
think I have. There we go in your

02:15:03.920 --> 02:15:11.920
pocket. Mhm. Yeah. Where was the lady?
There you go. Good. I'm thinking

02:15:12.810 --> 02:15:18.967
about specific herbs, you know for
certain ailments. And at one time I

02:15:19.000 --> 02:15:25.607
went to a man who got herbs and what
I'm thinking about right now is

02:15:25.640 --> 02:15:28.326
stabbing. Is there something like
that? Is there any special herb is

02:15:28.359 --> 02:15:34.107
supposed to be good for something like
that. You still know to get? Hey

02:15:34.140 --> 02:15:36.906
diabetes.

02:15:36.939 --> 02:15:42.706
Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm,

02:15:42.739 --> 02:15:46.196
diabetes

02:15:46.229 --> 02:15:52.397
as a disease has been known and
described for thousands of years. But

02:15:52.430 --> 02:15:59.027
exactly what is wrong in the body has
been known only recently. In fact,

02:15:59.060 --> 02:16:04.817
knowledge is increasing every day. We
used to think it was simple lack of

02:16:04.850 --> 02:16:11.357
insulin uh that the pancreas was not
producing. We know that uh the

02:16:11.390 --> 02:16:17.286
chemistry and the body is far more
complicated. So that although at one

02:16:17.319 --> 02:16:22.737
time there were herbs and you will see
herbs upstairs labeled. This is

02:16:22.770 --> 02:16:29.027
used for diabetes. Today. We no longer
recommend that this herb will do

02:16:29.060 --> 02:16:36.036
any good to cure or uh in any way
alleviate the condition. It's

02:16:36.069 --> 02:16:42.417
interesting simply from an historical
point of view, but I think google

02:16:42.450 --> 02:16:49.046
mecca is what's described as being
good for diabetes and it is not uh

02:16:49.079 --> 02:16:52.796
today uh

02:16:52.829 --> 02:16:58.186
anything really that you can do is to
go to the doctor and he will help

02:16:58.219 --> 02:17:05.046
you control the disease. But there's
no herb for it. There was a mention

02:17:05.079 --> 02:17:10.397
of one herb also that they were
studying uh for diabetes. And believe you

02:17:10.430 --> 02:17:14.796
me as the strangest place in some so
far removed from it. They said it

02:17:14.829 --> 02:17:19.337
grows wild in Louisiana but I cannot
remember the neighborhood that they

02:17:19.370 --> 02:17:24.036
were testing to see what properties it
had because it was very good for

02:17:24.069 --> 02:17:28.417
diabetes. But at this time I really
couldn't tell you the name of it. I

02:17:28.450 --> 02:17:32.557
would have to look into my notes of
many of the things that I've acquired

02:17:32.590 --> 02:17:37.776
and like I say it's still under study
the same. The same thing is true of

02:17:37.809 --> 02:17:43.786
cancer. Cancer is a word that used to
be applied to any kind of skin

02:17:43.819 --> 02:17:49.227
lesion. So if you look in her books,
you will find many, many herbs that

02:17:49.260 --> 02:17:54.217
are recommended. This is good for
cancer. As a matter of fact, this is

02:17:54.250 --> 02:18:01.067
good only for treating a superficial
skin condition. Um uh

02:18:01.100 --> 02:18:08.606
as yet we have no herb that can be
used for such a serious uh kind of

02:18:08.639 --> 02:18:14.467
disease. Most of the herbs that we
find so useful that have continued to

02:18:14.500 --> 02:18:20.817
be used are really for treatment of
symptoms. They will treat fevers, they

02:18:20.850 --> 02:18:26.477
will treat diarrhea says they will
treat uh discomforts

02:18:26.510 --> 02:18:33.317
of what kind or another. But they are
not known uh to get at the root of a

02:18:33.350 --> 02:18:41.350
serious change in the body physiology
or chemistry. You had a question

02:18:49.889 --> 02:18:57.397
uh mm hmm, serve under That is when
people, what we would call, what we

02:18:57.430 --> 02:19:05.356
know now more modern lee is
osteopathic medicine. She wanted to know what

02:19:05.389 --> 02:19:12.657
I meant by saying laying of the hands
on healing and healing practices. Uh

02:19:12.690 --> 02:19:17.257
much of the laying of the hands that
is practiced nowadays is a lot of

02:19:17.290 --> 02:19:23.387
what the osteopaths does really. And I
couldn't let us uh for stomach

02:19:23.420 --> 02:19:29.477
problems for impetuous what we call
impact mints within the stomach uh

02:19:29.510 --> 02:19:33.186
things that are embedded within our
stomach that we cannot pass through a

02:19:33.219 --> 02:19:38.467
bowel movement or by vomiting. Much of
this is a tracking system that they

02:19:38.500 --> 02:19:43.296
have, They actually lay your hands on
you. I wish I could demonstrate if I

02:19:43.329 --> 02:19:48.786
had a smaller child of some of the
things that are done here and they lay

02:19:48.819 --> 02:19:53.977
your hands on you. The lady that that
I go to who is about 80 some years

02:19:54.010 --> 02:19:59.366
old. Uh My daughter got very, very
sick and actually she was suffering

02:19:59.399 --> 02:20:05.327
from a piece of turkey that had
spoiled and she had eaten diarrhea,

02:20:05.360 --> 02:20:10.477
vomiting and stomach cramps and I took
her to ST mary's hospital. I also

02:20:10.510 --> 02:20:14.497
took her to our own doctor. And thank
God we had a doctor that really

02:20:14.530 --> 02:20:19.446
believes in meshing uh some of the
things that we practice at home with

02:20:19.479 --> 02:20:23.776
what uh Western medicine also does and
he says take her to your code in

02:20:23.809 --> 02:20:27.417
there because I gave her some stuff
for the vomiting. But she's still

02:20:27.450 --> 02:20:30.887
suffering from that pain and she says
try this and if not too much take

02:20:30.920 --> 02:20:35.747
her to the curandera. I did take her
to the curandera and she says lie

02:20:35.780 --> 02:20:41.487
down, she began with feeling her
nerves. Then she began by going down the

02:20:41.520 --> 02:20:47.026
spine and pulling on the spine. And
there are also certain exercises that

02:20:47.059 --> 02:20:51.317
they actually get involved with you
in. And she says don't laugh, it might

02:20:51.350 --> 02:20:56.366
be embarrassing, but you need to pass
your air as well as bert. And once

02:20:56.399 --> 02:21:01.407
she started uh doing her hands on her
back. My daughter started, you know

02:21:01.440 --> 02:21:06.356
, she says oh your breath is foul
smelling, you really have something

02:21:06.389 --> 02:21:12.137
impacted within the system. So she
started from the spine way down to here

02:21:12.170 --> 02:21:15.786
she started pulling on her skin to
ananda Lespinasse. So we call it

02:21:15.819 --> 02:21:21.057
cracking of the spine and that's where
your nervous system comes down and

02:21:21.090 --> 02:21:26.257
believe you, me and my daughter was up
in three days no more diarrhea, no

02:21:26.290 --> 02:21:31.376
more vomiting and no more stomach
cramps.

02:21:31.409 --> 02:21:38.766
It occurs to me uh that I should if
you have interest in these topics and

02:21:38.799 --> 02:21:42.426
you couldn't hear well and you
couldn't connect the kinds of things that

02:21:42.459 --> 02:21:48.137
were said. I did write a dictionary
and they are in them. And on the one

02:21:48.170 --> 02:21:52.137
hand I think oh dear, I shouldn't be
tooting my horn. And on the other

02:21:52.170 --> 02:21:57.317
hand I think but you do probably want
this information and you can get

02:21:57.350 --> 02:22:01.717
this probably from any bookstore. It's
called Southwestern mexican

02:22:01.750 --> 02:22:07.446
dictionary, Southwestern Medical
Dictionary. And it is in spanish and in

02:22:07.479 --> 02:22:13.807
english and it was uh collected at the
neighborhood health center where

02:22:13.840 --> 02:22:19.366
Julio Soto is now in charge of
community relations. And I worked with the

02:22:19.399 --> 02:22:26.647
people, they're getting the words and
finding out what they meant.

02:22:26.680 --> 02:22:31.026
We'll see what

02:22:31.059 --> 02:22:39.059
this one this book is here. This
medicine Alice Comic con Planters. Okay

02:22:41.600 --> 02:22:49.600
um Dr p Alvarez Gonzalez. It's printed
in Mexico I think it's out of print.

02:22:49.829 --> 02:22:55.286
But if you do go to Mexico, there are
various books of this type that you

02:22:55.319 --> 02:23:01.286
can get. One lady asked me if I
believed in the modern era. The era is the

02:23:01.319 --> 02:23:08.376
fontanel soft spot right here when a
baby is born. Definitely. I do and

02:23:08.409 --> 02:23:16.106
like I say that we think of of
illnesses both in a hot and cold sense when

02:23:16.139 --> 02:23:20.436
when I go to a doctor and I've had
seven Children, the doctor always used

02:23:20.469 --> 02:23:27.217
to touch my child soft spot here and
go like that. Also, we do not pick up

02:23:27.250 --> 02:23:32.827
the madeira by doing this because we
believe that your, you heard their

02:23:32.860 --> 02:23:38.057
palate up here. We don't do that. And
I do this for all my kids and my

02:23:38.090 --> 02:23:43.206
grandchildren. When I felt that the
fontanel soft spot was low, I knew

02:23:43.239 --> 02:23:48.026
that they were dehydrated. But I not
only believe in in refurbishing the

02:23:48.059 --> 02:23:53.807
body inwardly by bringing liquids into
the body, but we also do it on the

02:23:53.840 --> 02:23:59.446
outside. And one of the things that I
would do is I would take a warm uh

02:23:59.479 --> 02:24:05.247
tepid water from the, from the spigot.
And I would hold the baby upside

02:24:05.280 --> 02:24:11.536
down and just let the water suction
the fontanel soft spot to the level

02:24:11.569 --> 02:24:17.526
and also start giving it a lot of
liquids because some of them are uh some

02:24:17.559 --> 02:24:21.237
of the damage is done through
dehydration, but I also believe that some of

02:24:21.270 --> 02:24:25.817
the damage is done when the child has
suffered a sharp blow, either by

02:24:25.850 --> 02:24:32.126
falling or getting hit and that is
part of one of our very deep rooted

02:24:32.159 --> 02:24:38.686
beliefs. I don't care if people say
you guys are crazy or whatever. But

02:24:38.719 --> 02:24:44.217
what I am saying is as long as you
accept our beliefs, I'm not asking you

02:24:44.250 --> 02:24:48.776
to practice it just to try and
understand it. Okay. There is nothing he

02:24:48.809 --> 02:24:51.657
said. You

02:24:51.690 --> 02:24:55.796
you uh,

02:24:55.829 --> 02:25:00.007
or a sharp blow to the hair is
sometimes when the baby is sucking on the

02:25:00.040 --> 02:25:05.087
bottle and you pull it out, there are
soft spot also is, is jolted. It's

02:25:05.120 --> 02:25:11.116
sharp jolts or things like that. And
that is if you go into a home and you

02:25:11.149 --> 02:25:16.577
see, especially in, in some of the
mexican american Yaki homes. When you

02:25:16.610 --> 02:25:22.796
see a child that has salt right here,
it's our own form of cradle cap.

02:25:22.829 --> 02:25:28.327
Okay, what we use the salt for is
usually just as a device to see that the

02:25:28.360 --> 02:25:34.426
baby's fontanel sauce but is really
pulsing and when the baby soft spot is

02:25:34.459 --> 02:25:39.087
falling, you get the yellow matter
witchy, the baby is droopy. He can't

02:25:39.120 --> 02:25:43.206
nurse, right? And we really believe
that this affects the palette.

02:25:43.239 --> 02:25:47.257
Therefore to us, it is a no, no. When
the doctor pushes up the palette,

02:25:47.290 --> 02:25:53.546
we'd rather do it by suction of the
water. There's an old japanese saying

02:25:53.579 --> 02:26:00.116
that goes this way, play and take
medicine. I think that most people have

02:26:00.149 --> 02:26:06.167
learned to hedge their bets to try
everything. And uh those of you who are

02:26:06.200 --> 02:26:13.046
here for credit either with the
Arizona Medical Association or the Arizona

02:26:13.079 --> 02:26:18.237
nurses Association. I hope you've been
listening very hard to cures. That

02:26:18.270 --> 02:26:21.696
sound exotic. One of the kinds of
things that we've been trying to

02:26:21.729 --> 02:26:27.516
emphasize is that they're going to be
practiced. People are going to do

02:26:27.549 --> 02:26:32.977
them. If you laugh at them then
they'll go away and you won't see them. Uh

02:26:33.010 --> 02:26:38.286
if you combine them with the therapy
that you recommend, uh you're even

02:26:38.319 --> 02:26:44.106
more likely to get people will um our
knowledge of physiology, of, path of

02:26:44.139 --> 02:26:50.307
physiology, of biochemistry today is
not so advanced uh that we are not

02:26:50.340 --> 02:26:56.016
changing our minds. A witness. What
mrs Soto was saying about diarrhea. We

02:26:56.049 --> 02:27:01.036
used to try to stop it with law
marvel. Nowadays we say for heaven's sakes

02:27:01.069 --> 02:27:09.069
don't uh and the old idea of
administering a cathartic with diarrhea is

02:27:09.139 --> 02:27:13.106
being practiced again. We don't know
how many of these other things might

02:27:13.139 --> 02:27:20.167
be. We are concerned that Children
with my era won't be seen by the doctor.

02:27:20.200 --> 02:27:27.477
Uh I'm very sure that they will be
seen by the doctor but uh we want both

02:27:27.510 --> 02:27:35.167
kinds of treatments. We want the child
to be safe in a mother who is

02:27:35.200 --> 02:27:40.596
concerned and who is confident that
what she knows how to do will help and

02:27:40.629 --> 02:27:45.577
then we'll just further help her with
other things not to supplant them

02:27:45.610 --> 02:27:50.637
but to add to them. Okay,

02:27:50.670 --> 02:27:58.446
okay, well I would like to say in
summing up my presentation is that

02:27:58.479 --> 02:28:02.997
margarita has studied a lot of these
things margarita and I have

02:28:03.030 --> 02:28:09.606
communicated for many years and I say
that I think that uh in a sense

02:28:09.639 --> 02:28:13.837
we're a good combination as a person
who has lived it and as a person who

02:28:13.870 --> 02:28:18.817
has studied a combining forces to
develop better understanding as one

02:28:18.850 --> 02:28:24.077
human being to another. Uh Let's let
us be very frank and accepting the

02:28:24.110 --> 02:28:29.407
fact that not everything works even in
modern medicine. But I think that

02:28:29.440 --> 02:28:33.276
the track record of the things that
have been used by the mexican american

02:28:33.309 --> 02:28:38.817
and the indians have a very good track
record. And therefore I would say

02:28:38.850 --> 02:28:44.087
that these are things if if people are
willing to ask questions because

02:28:44.120 --> 02:28:48.987
they're generally wanting to know I
think it's good and usually we can

02:28:49.020 --> 02:28:57.020
tell what side you're coming from.
Okay thank you.

02:29:11.670 --> 02:29:15.036
The topic this afternoon

02:29:15.069 --> 02:29:23.069
is Navajo healing and psychiatry we
have with us. MS F. Alu Yossi who is

02:29:23.090 --> 02:29:26.967
the director of the Rough Rock
demonstration school which includes the

02:29:27.000 --> 02:29:33.016
only existing training school for
medicine men. We also have Doctor robert

02:29:33.049 --> 02:29:37.667
Bergman. It was former Chief of mental
health with the U. S. Indian health

02:29:37.700 --> 02:29:43.629
service and former faculty member of
the Navajo mental health program.

02:29:43.989 --> 02:29:45.989
They'll take over now. Um And again I request that you please be quiet.

02:29:52.500 --> 02:29:56.337
It's hard to hear and

02:29:56.370 --> 02:29:59.817
try not to move around a lot And if
people come through and are noisy,

02:29:59.850 --> 02:30:03.946
will you just please turn to them and
ask them to be quiet too. Maybe we

02:30:03.979 --> 02:30:11.979
can. Oh here and be able to
participated in this topic. Thanks.

02:30:14.360 --> 02:30:20.426
Good afternoon. Can you hear? I know
that my voice is really stuff and

02:30:20.459 --> 02:30:27.007
it's really hard to hear. But uh I'll
try to speak loud as I as much as I

02:30:27.040 --> 02:30:29.217
can.

02:30:29.250 --> 02:30:35.827
She described. The rough rock was one
of the first school which was

02:30:35.860 --> 02:30:43.126
established and defined as one of the
indian community control school.

02:30:43.159 --> 02:30:49.967
Probably this means most of the total
operation of the school. It's under

02:30:50.000 --> 02:30:55.907
control by the community through the
school through their elected school

02:30:55.940 --> 02:31:02.887
board members every week. And this is
unlike most of the school systems in

02:31:02.920 --> 02:31:09.706
the United States. But in order to
have an entire control by the indian

02:31:09.739 --> 02:31:16.217
people, it is almost necessary or
demand to have the school board meet

02:31:16.250 --> 02:31:22.346
weekly to discuss the total program.
The problems, different issues to

02:31:22.379 --> 02:31:29.356
address people who come across and
questioning the indian education in

02:31:29.389 --> 02:31:35.926
this system. We serve students from
preschool age through college level.

02:31:35.959 --> 02:31:42.926
One of the programs is the Navajo
Medicine Men program.

02:31:42.959 --> 02:31:49.467
The Navajo Medicine Man program is
funded by the National Institute of

02:31:49.500 --> 02:31:53.026
Mental Health.

02:31:53.059 --> 02:31:59.856
It is hard sometimes to visualize
exactly what mm and how the program is

02:31:59.889 --> 02:32:05.997
described. But later part of our
discussion that we will go into a little

02:32:06.030 --> 02:32:10.217
bit more

02:32:10.250 --> 02:32:16.147
just this year, we were able to secure
enough fund and be able to have

02:32:16.180 --> 02:32:22.167
another contract from public health
services to have our own clinic,

02:32:22.200 --> 02:32:30.200
having a medicine man training within
the control school. It was something

02:32:32.469 --> 02:32:38.296
special. But this year we were able to
have our own clinic which is also

02:32:38.329 --> 02:32:45.206
under our jurisdiction, meaning that
uh anglo doctor is able to work with

02:32:45.239 --> 02:32:51.116
a medicine man side by side within a
community.

02:32:51.149 --> 02:32:59.149
I am another health profession, but
I'm discipline and administrator. But

02:32:59.270 --> 02:33:03.696
I will touch on some of the
frustrations that we often go through by

02:33:03.729 --> 02:33:10.276
security funds. Since the community
control is pretty much designed by the

02:33:10.309 --> 02:33:17.327
people within the community, that it
is almost impossible to limit

02:33:17.360 --> 02:33:25.026
yourself as administrated into eight
our job, but some of my jobs or my

02:33:25.059 --> 02:33:27.217
responsibility

02:33:27.250 --> 02:33:33.536
is to provide services within that
community. The Children's parents and

02:33:33.569 --> 02:33:38.817
grandparents of that community.

02:33:38.850 --> 02:33:46.766
Yeah, I think before I got any further
whether you Canada you can fully

02:33:46.799 --> 02:33:51.936
understand this or not. But one must
remember that being the indian as an

02:33:51.969 --> 02:33:54.016
individual,

02:33:54.049 --> 02:33:59.626
there is a canopy of governmental
system, that one must live throughout

02:33:59.659 --> 02:34:07.116
their life. Many that there is a
system that

02:34:07.149 --> 02:34:11.206
restricts one individuals

02:34:11.239 --> 02:34:16.067
that is going to say the land is not
theirs. The education is not theirs,

02:34:16.100 --> 02:34:21.016
whatever belongs to them. It's not
theirs. But it's always, there is a

02:34:21.049 --> 02:34:25.606
limitation, there's restrictions that
one must face.

02:34:25.639 --> 02:34:32.376
But since Rough rock community was
able to determine their own educational

02:34:32.409 --> 02:34:38.887
needs and be able to design and
community being able to be a part of

02:34:38.920 --> 02:34:43.997
designing their own curriculum. This
one is possible and there were very

02:34:44.030 --> 02:34:52.030
few who could be able to do in both
culturally culturally uh programs

02:34:54.440 --> 02:34:59.516
I think to be in control of one's life
to make decisions and achieve self

02:34:59.549 --> 02:35:05.897
set goals. Our corner stores of
natural health. Generally speaking, the

02:35:05.930 --> 02:35:11.786
ending is controlled. He doesn't
control his own life. Some area of

02:35:11.819 --> 02:35:15.106
government controls his education.

02:35:15.139 --> 02:35:21.807
It means even at 50 65 or 70, the
Indian has a governmental Guardian to

02:35:21.840 --> 02:35:26.967
take care of him. So communities like
rough rock where the people have

02:35:27.000 --> 02:35:33.796
tried to take control of many
institutions that are supposed to serve them

02:35:33.829 --> 02:35:41.829
are very rare. Even more unusual.
Usual is the fact that people have

02:35:43.069 --> 02:35:51.069
succeeded. What they have tried to do.
They control their own school.

02:35:51.940 --> 02:35:57.587
Mhm. Every native american experiences
severe stresses in trying to

02:35:57.620 --> 02:36:03.606
integrate this culture was a dominant
culture.

02:36:03.639 --> 02:36:10.467
For some stress is so severe, it at
least to alcoholism and suicide and

02:36:10.500 --> 02:36:16.096
other forms of physical or incited
violence.

02:36:16.129 --> 02:36:21.926
Often what happened is the individual
is attached to aspects of anglo

02:36:21.959 --> 02:36:28.366
society. Then he feels that his
attraction betrayed his indigenous, he can

02:36:28.399 --> 02:36:33.087
bring the two cultures together. This
is one of the purposes of Rough Rock.

02:36:33.120 --> 02:36:40.417
Try to point out and I don't know if
this is the, this might be the best

02:36:40.450 --> 02:36:47.016
definition but bi cultural bilingual,
bilateral by cognitive is

02:36:47.049 --> 02:36:52.106
implemented within the program, not
only in an academic aspects, but as

02:36:52.139 --> 02:37:00.139
well as in the medicine man training.
So the medicine man can bring just

02:37:00.899 --> 02:37:07.536
as much percentage of the culture
within the curriculum as the regular

02:37:07.569 --> 02:37:15.569
american textbooks or regular system
of education. Here we try to point

02:37:16.620 --> 02:37:22.096
out their own indian problems within
the education as well as in the

02:37:22.129 --> 02:37:26.897
health. So a child is being able to,

02:37:26.930 --> 02:37:34.096
we'll be able to coat cope with both
societies. From a from the beginning

02:37:34.129 --> 02:37:42.129
we do have ending people in various
physicians to help one counselor, one

02:37:42.780 --> 02:37:49.796
angler counselor with three councilors
who are able to bring both

02:37:49.829 --> 02:37:55.087
Both definitions within one child's
life. This is pretty hard to do many

02:37:55.120 --> 02:38:01.417
times, but we hope that catching at
the earliest stages of it and then

02:38:01.450 --> 02:38:07.176
individuals might be able to cope
their own problems, their own uniqueness

02:38:07.209 --> 02:38:11.786
later on in life.

02:38:11.819 --> 02:38:18.876
I think many times we naturally
something as vital and a lot as medicine

02:38:18.909 --> 02:38:26.327
man will be criticized by many Anglos
who will never understand the magic

02:38:26.360 --> 02:38:32.667
that poetry, their visions are their
cures at the same time, it is

02:38:32.700 --> 02:38:40.116
important for interested Anglos not to
romanticize either the heart or the

02:38:40.149 --> 02:38:42.987
traditional indian.

02:38:43.020 --> 02:38:50.046
It is important to recognize that what
they, what they are caring is

02:38:50.079 --> 02:38:57.266
beautiful is useful and worthwhile and
variable to both the indian

02:38:57.299 --> 02:39:01.887
community and the world outside.

02:39:01.920 --> 02:39:07.686
Can you hear me?

02:39:07.719 --> 02:39:14.876
Mhm. It is almost as important for us
to know that tradition is not dying

02:39:14.909 --> 02:39:22.827
out. The Navajo religion is Even
stronger now than 10 years ago and it is

02:39:22.860 --> 02:39:29.786
still alive and the role that roof
rack has played in interrogating inter

02:39:29.819 --> 02:39:34.766
grading the medicine man into the
school system and in preventing the

02:39:34.799 --> 02:39:39.696
details of Navajo cannot be
overestimated when the language and the

02:39:39.729 --> 02:39:47.729
culture died, that people die. Let's
talk about what a medicine man is.

02:39:47.750 --> 02:39:53.467
The word medicine man is an angler
word to most Anglos. It means something

02:39:53.500 --> 02:39:59.237
like a witch doctor. Well, another
word for what most of you call a

02:39:59.270 --> 02:40:06.667
medicine man is hot or a singer. Hi
talking mean doesn't translate to

02:40:06.700 --> 02:40:11.887
medicine man. I taught him as a
singer. If the early settlers of the west

02:40:11.920 --> 02:40:18.516
or more knowledge knowledgeable
themselves, they probably would have

02:40:18.549 --> 02:40:24.296
translated the word as Chandler
because that's what karate is a singer,

02:40:24.329 --> 02:40:31.977
Chandler of the holy songs and the
holy words we have no written by them.

02:40:32.010 --> 02:40:37.436
Our bible is care in the heads of our
neutrality who sends the words that

02:40:37.469 --> 02:40:40.776
hold our culture together.

02:40:40.809 --> 02:40:45.696
People say, well, how can you make a
medicine and medicine and be part of

02:40:45.729 --> 02:40:52.196
your educational institution? It is
like a priest in a catholic school.

02:40:52.229 --> 02:40:59.686
Yes and no, because the price is just
a religious leader, sometimes an

02:40:59.719 --> 02:41:06.007
angle of religious leader is almost a
psychiatrist and sometimes he is an

02:41:06.040 --> 02:41:14.040
arbitrator and now that is uh now and
then he's a visionary.

02:41:14.309 --> 02:41:21.307
Yeah, but the medicine man is a
psychiatrist, he's a healer. He's a

02:41:21.340 --> 02:41:28.157
visionary. He's a holy and religious
man as well. The endless society

02:41:28.190 --> 02:41:35.217
fragments it's healings into
specialties. What the medicine man not only

02:41:35.250 --> 02:41:42.087
need treats the total the total
person, but he's a total person. He is our

02:41:42.120 --> 02:41:47.776
religious leader, he's our
psychiatrist, he is our doctor.

02:41:47.809 --> 02:41:54.676
But he is all is our secular
arbitrator.

02:41:54.709 --> 02:42:01.137
He is respected and a wise leader. His
presence alone without any words

02:42:01.170 --> 02:42:07.606
can solve problems. And this is even
true when the medicine man's own

02:42:07.639 --> 02:42:15.639
personal and daily life shows him to
be an ordinary person himself. In

02:42:16.170 --> 02:42:22.737
prehistory, the holy people use the
first people have tried to accomplish

02:42:22.770 --> 02:42:29.727
their objectives today. They still use
people, those people that are open

02:42:29.760 --> 02:42:36.337
to them. You see our school has to
stress the culture and our roots in the

02:42:36.370 --> 02:42:41.696
past and interrogate interrogate them
into the present. The small amount

02:42:41.729 --> 02:42:47.866
of a small amount provided by the
government to support these curious.

02:42:47.899 --> 02:42:55.899
Mhm Of harmony is 75 a year. Mhm. The
heart only knows the relationship of

02:42:55.909 --> 02:43:03.036
each man to the land and the universe.
Yeah. The beauty of the are their

02:43:03.069 --> 02:43:08.417
vision and the heritage is beyond
description For this beauty. The

02:43:08.450 --> 02:43:14.546
government allows 75,000 a year. This
supports six teachers and 12 and

02:43:14.579 --> 02:43:17.667
trainees

02:43:17.700 --> 02:43:22.757
during the time between rituals and
the family and the patient is

02:43:22.790 --> 02:43:29.407
informally counseled by the medicine
man. He may use advice and a variety

02:43:29.440 --> 02:43:35.757
of subjects. The medicine man's
practice and reputation is protected by

02:43:35.790 --> 02:43:43.007
the novel cultural method of
separating diagnosed and healing. Don't lose

02:43:43.040 --> 02:43:49.296
situation. The crystal geyser or hand
trembler decides what is wrong with

02:43:49.329 --> 02:43:54.507
the patient and what ceremony will
cure him. What is wrong with the

02:43:54.540 --> 02:43:59.717
patient? What is wrong with? The
patient is determined with a hand

02:43:59.750 --> 02:44:05.307
trembler. Mm. The medicine man
performs the same morning. The way he is

02:44:05.340 --> 02:44:10.776
supposed to is that sickness continues
actually the ceremony and then

02:44:10.809 --> 02:44:17.257
obviously got knows is wrong. Then the
process begins all over again.

02:44:17.290 --> 02:44:23.557
The ceremonies are individualized in
the sense that the family will be

02:44:23.590 --> 02:44:30.757
able to specify which send painted,
they want the medicine man to use.

02:44:30.790 --> 02:44:36.057
This is a choice within the ceremonial
range to choose from. The form of

02:44:36.090 --> 02:44:42.837
the ceremony is set by elements within
can be changed just away. The hymns

02:44:42.870 --> 02:44:49.766
and sermons can be changed in sunday
in a christian church. A medicine man

02:44:49.799 --> 02:44:55.536
also may have his own preference and
prejudice. He may use or refuse to

02:44:55.569 --> 02:45:01.217
use a certain scent painting because
he has found it out to be extremely

02:45:01.250 --> 02:45:03.557
powerful.

02:45:03.590 --> 02:45:11.157
Mhm. So generally speaking anglo
doctors treat symptoms but so do now the

02:45:11.190 --> 02:45:16.167
whole medicine man, they give you a
remedy to drink or run up on him. It's

02:45:16.200 --> 02:45:21.866
a her to go away. But it comes back
and you do it again

02:45:21.899 --> 02:45:27.766
like aspirin sooner or later, the
symptoms is gone. But if it doesn't, you

02:45:27.799 --> 02:45:34.557
go to the clinic. If that doesn't
work. You combat to the medicine man.

02:45:34.590 --> 02:45:41.866
Yeah. Mhm. There's ceremonies are for
families as much as for patient. The

02:45:41.899 --> 02:45:46.577
ceremony gives everybody something to
do. So they don't feel guilty or

02:45:46.610 --> 02:45:51.387
helpless about the patient's illness.
And while the patient is being

02:45:51.420 --> 02:45:57.196
treated, his family is praying with
him and for him, his friends, the

02:45:57.229 --> 02:46:02.786
patient can be, can see visible proof
how much all of his people love him

02:46:02.819 --> 02:46:10.157
, how much they want him to recover
how much they care how far away they

02:46:10.190 --> 02:46:15.747
come from. Just to make him feel
better. The family works hard to make the

02:46:15.780 --> 02:46:21.747
ceremony just right. They pay a good
deal of money. They spend a lot of

02:46:21.780 --> 02:46:27.887
time and effort to cure the patient.
They don't have to feel guilty

02:46:27.920 --> 02:46:34.897
anymore about some of those bad
thoughts they had about that person. They

02:46:34.930 --> 02:46:41.266
are really trying to make him get
better and he usually does.

02:46:41.299 --> 02:46:47.866
Yeah. Everything that is done and used
in the ceremony has deep symbolism

02:46:47.899 --> 02:46:53.766
connected with it. The first Hogan was
made of turquoise squat shell

02:46:53.799 --> 02:47:01.366
rainbow does it took on today in some
broccoli. The same.

02:47:01.399 --> 02:47:06.866
The plan handed down by the holy
people was a plan for the Navajo people,

02:47:06.899 --> 02:47:13.467
the Navajo temple. Then I will people
live in the temple daily and it is

02:47:13.500 --> 02:47:20.467
transferred by their prayers and their
belief, the whole gun, the songs,

02:47:20.500 --> 02:47:27.967
the same painting every physical
action in the ceremony are symbolic and

02:47:28.000 --> 02:47:31.967
all have deep meaning to the people.

02:47:32.000 --> 02:47:38.667
The young girl becomes changing woman
during her kennel to the people tour

02:47:38.700 --> 02:47:46.700
the underworld in evil ways. Men
become gods and the way in participating

02:47:47.100 --> 02:47:52.167
in Navajo ceremony, you become
something more than you are. You pull

02:47:52.200 --> 02:47:58.866
yourself out of a mundane existence
and grow divine.

02:47:58.899 --> 02:48:04.967
It will be very convenient to say that
Navajo healing is the same thing as

02:48:05.000 --> 02:48:13.000
psychological care, but it isn't. How
can you explain way There was a

02:48:14.399 --> 02:48:18.866
specific some violence and sand
mornings are used to fight specific

02:48:18.899 --> 02:48:20.967
illness.

02:48:21.000 --> 02:48:26.766
You can say that the singer
manipulates, stick part of the body through

02:48:26.799 --> 02:48:30.467
psychological symbolism

02:48:30.500 --> 02:48:37.366
and curious a patient. But each time
the singer uses the same symbolism.

02:48:37.399 --> 02:48:44.366
The angle psychiatrist helps the
patient relief, his conflicts by going

02:48:44.399 --> 02:48:50.766
back to a specific point in a
patient's life to resolve a problem. The

02:48:50.799 --> 02:48:55.567
medicine man helps his patient relief,
his conflicts in a universe

02:48:55.600 --> 02:48:57.766
conflict.

02:48:57.799 --> 02:49:02.567
The patient vigor victoriously

02:49:02.600 --> 02:49:09.266
in metaphor becomes healthy in life.
The singer takes the patient and his

02:49:09.299 --> 02:49:15.167
family and friends back and forth from
daily life to myth. We call it

02:49:15.200 --> 02:49:20.967
history from the physical universe to
the universe of the mind, from the

02:49:21.000 --> 02:49:26.866
external world to the eternal body.
They go back and forth until the

02:49:26.899 --> 02:49:33.967
intellectual emotional distinctions
between these areas are erased. Then

02:49:34.000 --> 02:49:40.467
the patient becomes the victor. Either
you understand it or you don't, if

02:49:40.500 --> 02:49:46.467
you want to get deeper into into it
from the anglo point of view.

02:49:46.500 --> 02:49:54.500
Ask dr Bergman,

02:50:06.399 --> 02:50:08.967
I've

02:50:09.000 --> 02:50:14.167
noticed that there's some people here
who know her so I can't use the line

02:50:14.200 --> 02:50:17.567
that I plan to about Eloise which was
that she was a figment of super

02:50:17.600 --> 02:50:23.567
soakers imagination. Uh huh. Eloise
exists under where she is that she's

02:50:23.600 --> 02:50:31.366
not here And uh any disorganization to
death, lou and I are suffering are

02:50:31.399 --> 02:50:35.366
strictly strictly Eloise's fault
because we've had to divide up between

02:50:35.399 --> 02:50:41.866
the two of us. The things we thought
Eloise was going to say,

02:50:41.899 --> 02:50:49.899
Eloise despite her uh her good dutch
name is Navajo. Uh since she's not

02:50:51.000 --> 02:50:54.366
here, I'll talk about her.

02:50:54.399 --> 02:50:59.067
It's interesting where the name comes
from, it comes from her husband Jack

02:50:59.100 --> 02:51:04.067
of course. But besides that uh when
Jack's father went to their Hope and

02:51:04.100 --> 02:51:11.266
Mission School uh which was uh a dutch
reformed institution, his name now

02:51:11.299 --> 02:51:18.667
Cici it was hard for the missionaries
and the teachers too to say. So they

02:51:18.700 --> 02:51:22.967
said uh it's not a it's not a good
american name. Now if she she will

02:51:23.000 --> 02:51:26.967
never be a name that americans can get
ahead with what you need is a good

02:51:27.000 --> 02:51:34.766
american name like de Groat and that's
where that comes from. Um

02:51:34.799 --> 02:51:36.866
the,

02:51:36.899 --> 02:51:42.766
mm hmm. Mhm.

02:51:42.799 --> 02:51:47.766
The only way that I remain at all
comfortable talking about indian

02:51:47.799 --> 02:51:52.766
medicine a since it's rather late in
the day for a white person to be

02:51:52.799 --> 02:51:57.967
talking about indian medicine is from
the point of view of what white

02:51:58.000 --> 02:52:03.967
people can learn from indian medicine,
which I think is quite a lot mm I

02:52:04.000 --> 02:52:07.567
was giving the same talk or more or
less a couple of nights ago somewhere

02:52:07.600 --> 02:52:14.067
else. And I discovered when I got
there that it had been built as native

02:52:14.100 --> 02:52:20.266
american contributions to non indian
medicine and what it should be built

02:52:20.299 --> 02:52:25.467
is as is there should have been as
contributions that should have been

02:52:25.500 --> 02:52:33.500
made by native american medicine too.
Non indian medicine.

02:52:35.500 --> 02:52:43.366
Um some sometimes non indians are very
smug when it comes to indians and

02:52:43.399 --> 02:52:47.266
think that all the learning has to go
the other way. Sometimes they learn.

02:52:47.299 --> 02:52:51.967
There's a nice story about a man that
was had come from texas and was

02:52:52.000 --> 02:52:56.866
touring around the Navajo reservation
and saw an old Navajo man sitting

02:52:56.899 --> 02:53:00.766
out in front of his hill gun and it
was such a pretty place and God looks

02:53:00.799 --> 02:53:08.167
sort of interesting. The tourists
stopped to talk to the old man and

02:53:08.200 --> 02:53:14.067
he converse with him for a little
while and then he said how big is your

02:53:14.100 --> 02:53:18.667
land here? How much is this? Is your
land? Never a man said well the whole

02:53:18.700 --> 02:53:23.967
reservation is my land terry said you
know what I mean? Your your land and

02:53:24.000 --> 02:53:27.067
the party is just yours. He said well
we don't really think of it exactly

02:53:27.100 --> 02:53:32.266
like that. The part that most people
consider to be mine starts over there

02:53:32.299 --> 02:53:35.766
way over there at that hill and it
goes way over the other hill, way over

02:53:35.799 --> 02:53:42.366
the other the other fire, distant
point. And so it's pretty big and Texans.

02:53:42.399 --> 02:53:48.467
It big. Why? My land in texas is so
big that I can get in my car first

02:53:48.500 --> 02:53:52.366
thing in the morning and drive all
day. Any direction I want to at the end

02:53:52.399 --> 02:53:56.266
of the day, I'm still on my own land.
Number two man said I used to have a

02:53:56.299 --> 02:54:03.167
car just exactly like that.

02:54:03.200 --> 02:54:06.766
The

02:54:06.799 --> 02:54:12.567
mhm. About 12 years ago when I first
went to the Navajo reservation. Mm

02:54:12.600 --> 02:54:18.467
hmm. The first Navajo medicine man I
met with a man who is called in

02:54:18.500 --> 02:54:26.366
english was called an english thomas
Large whiskers uh is um, I don't know

02:54:26.399 --> 02:54:31.266
where the thomas came from, but large
whiskey was a literal translation or

02:54:31.299 --> 02:54:36.167
more or less so of his Navajo
descriptive name. Devon saucy saucy. It's

02:54:36.200 --> 02:54:41.467
still not saying it right. Um

02:54:41.500 --> 02:54:46.967
mm hmm. On his social security card it
said thomas Hell whiskers. On his

02:54:47.000 --> 02:54:53.266
indian health service record. It's
that thomas, large whiskers. Uh these

02:54:53.299 --> 02:54:57.266
things get a little confused. There
was another lady I knew whose name was

02:54:57.299 --> 02:55:02.967
Silver headbands daughter. Uh, and she
appeared on her health records. His

02:55:03.000 --> 02:55:09.866
silver hb daughter. Uh

02:55:09.899 --> 02:55:15.766
the way I met him was that Sophie
Thompson and Navajo social worker. And I

02:55:15.799 --> 02:55:18.967
were looking up some people who had
been studied by jerry levy an

02:55:19.000 --> 02:55:26.467
anthropologist a few years earlier,
jerry had traced down the number of

02:55:26.500 --> 02:55:31.167
Navajo people who had been in various
mental hospitals and had interviewed

02:55:31.200 --> 02:55:34.766
them and interviewed their families to
learn something about what form

02:55:34.799 --> 02:55:38.766
various mental illnesses seem to take
among none of his. I was interested

02:55:38.799 --> 02:55:41.467
in going to see them to see what had
happened to them over a period of

02:55:41.500 --> 02:55:46.766
time to see how they had made out what
was going on with them. One of them

02:55:46.799 --> 02:55:50.766
was a woman, probably one of the most
disturbed of the group was a woman

02:55:50.799 --> 02:55:54.967
who had been in three different mental
hospitals diagnosed as chronically

02:55:55.000 --> 02:55:59.667
schizophrenic. She had not been,
according to the records of the hospitals

02:55:59.700 --> 02:56:07.167
has not improved much during any of
her hospitalizations. We looked,

02:56:07.200 --> 02:56:13.467
looked up her family. Sophie managed
to find her father and the father

02:56:13.500 --> 02:56:19.167
went when Sophie found him said, I'm
not sure that you want to to see my

02:56:19.200 --> 02:56:25.366
daughter anymore because she's not
sick anymore. And we said that if she

02:56:25.399 --> 02:56:29.266
wasn't sick anymore. Uh, we were
particularly interested in seeing her. So

02:56:29.299 --> 02:56:35.167
we went out to visit her and spent the
day and indeed, I had never seen

02:56:35.200 --> 02:56:38.167
her when she was crazy, but she was
certainly not crazy the day. We were

02:56:38.200 --> 02:56:44.067
with her and she was in a very
business like and fairly cheerful manner,

02:56:44.100 --> 02:56:49.667
taking care of my Children and some
sheep and a number of chores around

02:56:49.700 --> 02:56:57.167
the house and was busy and productive
and relatively content. Uh, yeah,

02:56:57.200 --> 02:57:00.266
ultimately, when she had time to talk
with us in the midst of all our

02:57:00.299 --> 02:57:04.967
business. Uh, we asked her what had
happened and she told us that after a

02:57:05.000 --> 02:57:10.667
great many different attempts to cure
various kinds, she had been referred

02:57:10.700 --> 02:57:18.266
to uh Mr Lawrence Whiskers by a Navajo
diagnose station. And one of the

02:57:18.299 --> 02:57:22.266
first things that she told me that
impressed me about this man was that uh

02:57:22.299 --> 02:57:28.766
huh she had gone to see him at his
home. She knew perfectly well that it

02:57:28.799 --> 02:57:35.067
wasn't customary for him to perform a
major ceremony at his home, but that

02:57:35.100 --> 02:57:38.467
he had to come to her. But she was so
anxious. Her mother, I think more

02:57:38.500 --> 02:57:42.067
than she was so anxious to get help
immediately that they tried to insist

02:57:42.100 --> 02:57:47.766
that he do something for her right
then. And there he

02:57:47.799 --> 02:57:55.667
I told them she said that that was a
silly idea because she had become ill

02:57:55.700 --> 02:57:59.766
at home among her family. She would
have to live at home among her family

02:57:59.799 --> 02:58:05.467
after she got well and therefore it
was at home among her family that she

02:58:05.500 --> 02:58:10.266
would have to recover. Which was an
idea which was then gaining a little

02:58:10.299 --> 02:58:15.067
bit of standing among american
psychiatrists

02:58:15.100 --> 02:58:20.167
and which I still feel is an extremely
valid one, which has been part of

02:58:20.200 --> 02:58:25.866
Navajo medicine all along. When we
managed to look up mr large whiskers,

02:58:25.899 --> 02:58:29.866
so I want to meet after this, I told
him that I wanted to hire him to be a

02:58:29.899 --> 02:58:35.067
consultant to our indian health
service mental health program. I told him

02:58:35.100 --> 02:58:38.766
that I thought that he and I were
interested in some of the same kinds of

02:58:38.799 --> 02:58:45.866
illnesses and I could learn from him
if he would be willing to teach me.

02:58:45.899 --> 02:58:51.967
He said he wasn't sure. He said that
he couldn't imagine what it was that

02:58:52.000 --> 02:58:55.067
I had learned from books. He said he'd
never learned anything from a book

02:58:55.100 --> 02:58:59.667
he learned from his grandfather's. Uh
He said he didn't know what they had

02:58:59.700 --> 02:59:04.567
in books that I would read. He said
the most important thing that his

02:59:04.600 --> 02:59:08.766
grandfather taught him about mental
illness was that there's a part of the

02:59:08.799 --> 02:59:14.467
mind that people don't know about
which contains their real thoughts that

02:59:14.500 --> 02:59:19.067
is out of their awareness and has a
powerful effect on whether they remain

02:59:19.100 --> 02:59:23.167
well, they become ill. I said I'd
heard about that. That that was in our

02:59:23.200 --> 02:59:30.366
books and he was mildly pleased to
hear it. Uh Just for fun working out

02:59:30.399 --> 02:59:34.067
when he had begun his training, he was
when I met him 100 and one years

02:59:34.100 --> 02:59:38.167
old. Uh

02:59:38.200 --> 02:59:43.766
Mhm. Little subtraction and addition
showed that uh he had learned about

02:59:43.799 --> 02:59:48.067
the unconscious about seven or eight
years before Freud published studies

02:59:48.100 --> 02:59:50.167
ministerial

02:59:50.200 --> 02:59:54.467
um

02:59:54.500 --> 03:00:00.067
couple more things about mr large
whiskers may give the flavor of what

03:00:00.100 --> 03:00:06.266
yeah, some Navajo medicine men are
like. Um

03:00:06.299 --> 03:00:13.266
Mhm. The yeah, the reason that he went
into The business of being a

03:00:13.299 --> 03:00:20.366
medicine man was that when he was 15
or 16 years old, he was driving a

03:00:20.399 --> 03:00:26.167
wagon and he was on the edge of a very
deep a royal and somehow or another

03:00:26.200 --> 03:00:31.266
managed to drive the wagon into the
royal, thus breaking his leg in those

03:00:31.299 --> 03:00:38.667
days. They were next to no non indian
physicians around the reservation,

03:00:38.700 --> 03:00:44.067
nobody went to the ones that were and
there were a Navajo men who knew how

03:00:44.100 --> 03:00:49.366
to set serious fractures. Which which
is what he had sustained. In fact,

03:00:49.399 --> 03:00:52.967
they're still there. Navajo men who
know how to fix serious fractures. But

03:00:53.000 --> 03:00:55.667
they don't do it very often anymore
because they don't have X rays and

03:00:55.700 --> 03:01:00.567
they know that an X ray machine is a
very handy gadget to have uh when

03:01:00.600 --> 03:01:05.967
you're reducing the fracture anyhow.
Uh The in spite of not having X ray,

03:01:06.000 --> 03:01:12.467
that leg was fixed up pretty well. One
could see in many years later that

03:01:12.500 --> 03:01:16.366
the leg had been very badly broken,
but it heals pretty well very well

03:01:16.399 --> 03:01:21.167
considering that it had been done
without some of the gadgets that we

03:01:21.200 --> 03:01:26.567
worked with today. The man that fixed.

03:01:26.600 --> 03:01:33.366
Yeah, it fixed the the fracture. I
told mr large whiskers that he'd better

03:01:33.399 --> 03:01:38.366
have a ceremony and that he had better
see a different medicine man for

03:01:38.399 --> 03:01:44.866
that. He said the reason for that was
that he had at least momentarily

03:01:44.899 --> 03:01:51.567
been out of his mind to drive his
wagon into the arroyo and

03:01:51.600 --> 03:01:56.567
uh large whiskers angrily denied it.
He said it was an accident. He hadn't

03:01:56.600 --> 03:02:00.266
done it on purpose and the medicine
men said nonsense, there was something

03:02:00.299 --> 03:02:04.467
going on inside him that made him do
it. And he became so fascinated with

03:02:04.500 --> 03:02:08.866
the notion of unconscious intention
that he decided to go into the

03:02:08.899 --> 03:02:13.266
business which I liked because it was
something rather akin to that made

03:02:13.299 --> 03:02:19.967
me decide to go into the business and
my own culture. Um

03:02:20.000 --> 03:02:25.866
at the time that Neil armstrong, I
guess that's the right guy, took the

03:02:25.899 --> 03:02:31.667
small step for a man and the giant
step for mankind on the moon. Uh a

03:02:31.700 --> 03:02:35.366
magazine writer and I have to be
spending some time visiting with mr large

03:02:35.399 --> 03:02:41.967
whiskers. And the writer was very
interested in the possibility that he

03:02:42.000 --> 03:02:46.967
would be the person to tell this old
medicine man that a human being, it

03:02:47.000 --> 03:02:52.266
landed on the moon, something that
wasn't very impressive to the writer.

03:02:52.299 --> 03:03:00.299
Um In fact he was and he was rather
disappointed in that the old man

03:03:00.600 --> 03:03:04.567
didn't seem to get too excited about
it. The writer said, well what do you

03:03:04.600 --> 03:03:08.967
think of that? Are you surprised? He
said no, there's nothing so foolish,

03:03:09.000 --> 03:03:13.967
expensive or dangerous that white
people won't do it.

03:03:14.000 --> 03:03:17.866
Um

03:03:17.899 --> 03:03:24.366
I had had some contact with a number
of people like uh mr large whiskers

03:03:24.399 --> 03:03:27.866
because we hired them as consultants.
This was hard to do it first because

03:03:27.899 --> 03:03:32.967
people in the uh In the contracting
office in the Indian Health Service

03:03:33.000 --> 03:03:37.567
would say things like how can we pay
$100 consultant fee to a man who

03:03:37.600 --> 03:03:44.467
thumb printed the contract. But they
did and we learned a lot from them

03:03:44.500 --> 03:03:49.567
also had the privilege of being
involved in the medicine man program at

03:03:49.600 --> 03:03:53.667
school. Um

03:03:53.700 --> 03:04:00.067
The way that happened was that when it
began the school, I don't mean they

03:04:00.100 --> 03:04:05.567
reference school with Medicine Man
school was something that the school

03:04:05.600 --> 03:04:10.967
board wanted very much to do and they
managed to do in a rather

03:04:11.000 --> 03:04:14.667
tiny way on a shoestring that money
they sneaked out of various other

03:04:14.700 --> 03:04:19.567
parts of their budget, a healthy
practice that s lu says can no longer be

03:04:19.600 --> 03:04:25.667
done in the current auditing
conditions. But obviously more money had had

03:04:25.700 --> 03:04:32.766
to be found. And the school which was
then largely funded by Ohio applied

03:04:32.799 --> 03:04:40.799
to the oyo branch of No for a grant to
run this program And the Oyo Health

03:04:41.899 --> 03:04:44.866
people said that they really weren't
interested in medicine men, they were

03:04:44.899 --> 03:04:47.967
interested in storefront clinics. Well
the nearest store front to rough

03:04:48.000 --> 03:04:54.866
rock is about 130 miles I suppose. So
that didn't go over at which point I

03:04:54.899 --> 03:05:00.366
began looking around and I m. H. To
try to find somebody who would be

03:05:00.399 --> 03:05:04.467
receptive to such a grant. And I think
greatly to the credit of the

03:05:04.500 --> 03:05:09.766
courage. And I am h we found some
people who were interested though there

03:05:09.799 --> 03:05:13.667
committee was a little nervous about
the thing when they came out to do

03:05:13.700 --> 03:05:19.266
the original site visit. Uh, the
question they kept asking was how can a

03:05:19.299 --> 03:05:25.167
program which promotes superstition
promote mental health and I would

03:05:25.200 --> 03:05:29.967
become terribly excited and upset and
angry when people ask that question.

03:05:30.000 --> 03:05:34.866
The medicine men fortunately were much
calmer than I and dealt with it in

03:05:34.899 --> 03:05:38.366
a reasonable way and ultimately were
convincing enough that the thing was

03:05:38.399 --> 03:05:43.567
funded. We were terribly afraid in the
first few years of the program that

03:05:43.600 --> 03:05:51.600
, uh, it would explode all over some
congressmen or senators office and

03:05:52.500 --> 03:05:55.866
he'd get up and pursuing your that you
have to be the principal agent and

03:05:55.899 --> 03:05:58.866
pursuing your health, that you cannot
leave yourself in the hands of

03:05:58.899 --> 03:06:03.067
others. And to pursue the tested
assumption that somebody knows better

03:06:03.100 --> 03:06:07.766
than you what's okay for you. We don't
know very much in spite of all the

03:06:07.799 --> 03:06:13.967
years and In spite of the fact that we
have increased one's lifespan to 70

03:06:14.000 --> 03:06:19.366
years. I'm not so sure that I'd be
willing to comment on the quality of of

03:06:19.399 --> 03:06:25.266
that life. I think that you're each
responsible in some way for keeping

03:06:25.299 --> 03:06:28.967
yourself healthy. I think that to
abandon that faith into the hands of

03:06:29.000 --> 03:06:31.766
others

03:06:31.799 --> 03:06:36.366
is probably not healthy. I think the
doctors cannot do for you, anything

03:06:36.399 --> 03:06:39.766
that you're unwilling to do for
yourself and that to allow them the

03:06:39.799 --> 03:06:43.467
privilege of somehow doing it to you
only emphasizes their ability and

03:06:43.500 --> 03:06:51.500
your inability and that renders you
weak, helpless and powerless.

03:06:58.500 --> 03:07:01.967
I'd like to pursue this matter of the
importance of interpersonal

03:07:02.000 --> 03:07:05.967
relationships in maintaining health or
are preventing illness. I think

03:07:06.000 --> 03:07:11.866
this is something that is more
important in some cultures than in others

03:07:11.899 --> 03:07:19.567
and to go to the other end of the
table to ask uhh Miss Yancy. Now there's

03:07:19.600 --> 03:07:22.766
a lot of

03:07:22.799 --> 03:07:29.967
of ritual and so on that goes on in
traditional Navajo life, would you say

03:07:30.000 --> 03:07:36.467
some things about how this is
important or isn't important in maintaining

03:07:36.500 --> 03:07:42.866
health and something about
interpersonal relationships? If they are

03:07:42.899 --> 03:07:50.899
factors? Mhm. Mhm. I don't quite
understand your question but and are

03:07:52.000 --> 03:07:56.167
there any specific areas of the
stages?

03:07:56.200 --> 03:08:03.667
Well, let's take I guess I asked sort
of a two part question, suppose if

03:08:03.700 --> 03:08:09.667
we're considering ways to stay healthy
and look at how, looking at how

03:08:09.700 --> 03:08:17.700
this differs From one culture to
another. Are there any things in Navajo

03:08:17.700 --> 03:08:24.266
culture which are important in
maintaining good health that you defined

03:08:24.299 --> 03:08:31.200
and talked about earlier? Are any of
the rituals important? For example.Um