This is forum, a
public service feature of Katie Katie radio.
Yeah, good evening and welcome to forum on a Tuesday night, october the
12th, 1971. This is William Edward compton. And tonight we are. I will use
the word privileged and I don't use the word lightly. We are privileged to
have a gentleman in the control room who I've been familiar with for a
couple of years since coming to Arizona and uh have been tremendously
impressed with what I've seen in that two year time. I'm speaking of mr
Paulo Soleri who is known as an architect, archaeologist, philosopher or a
lot of other things depending on who you're talking to. And a lot of
different people seem to have a lot of different ideas as to who he is and
what he's doing. And so we thought that maybe the best way to find out was
invite him up and let him speak for himself because we've managed over the
past couple of weeks to talk to a lot of other people. Currently, a couple
of things we might mention, The fact that the architectural vision of
Paolo Soleri, which is an exhibit is now showing at the Phoenix Art Museum
are now on display I guess I should say. And it's a culmination of about
15 years of his life's work, something that we had the opportunity to look
at this afternoon and uh I would urge everyone to get down there also
something that will be coming up tomorrow night. Well, we'll just go ahead
and talk about that later. First. We will say hello to Paula and Good
evening, how are you tonight? Fine are you? Just about just about Okay,
first I would like to I would like to go ahead and start off by you
telling the audience a little bit about you, something about your
background,
I am italian, I was born in Turin which is an industrial town, a fairly
sizable town for Italy and I spent my life, my first part of my life, the
school years there, I left Torino and when I was 26 to come in this
country and exactly, to be with Mr Right, frank Lloyd Wright, I studied
there in Torino, the School of Fine Arts and then another point, technique
, I became an architect, a regular italian architect um When I came in
this country, I was about 18 months with Mr, right. two seasons, how old
were you at that time, Paula when you came 6,
25, 26, 26, I think, so, I had a certain background, I didn't come as
young as many other students or apprentices, but I'm very glad I came to
be with Mr Lie, because it's quite an experience in many ways, this is one
thing that I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding about and uh
that is that a lot of people feel are without having a, without being that
familiar with your work, feel that you drew a lot of your ideas from frank
Lloyd Wright, and even though I realized that you probably did learn a lot
from the man, you already had a lot of the things that you have been doing
formulated at that time. A lot of, a lot of the concepts more than not so
much concepts, but really the background, the cultural background and the
kind of environment that I grew up and from an architectural point of view
, it was quite important because Italy has quite a, quite a good
architectural tradition in the way our urban, urban tradition, modern
architecture. So that was very, very important. I think that remained with
me up to today and in a way with missile. I, there was a break because
he's,
he was a countryman fundamental right? So this was a point where I can
agree with his ideas but at the time when I was there I didn't really know
exactly what I would be doing. I knew that things were not as I saw them
and I wanted to do something about them, but I don't know what at that
point, could you tell us a little bit about your impressions of America
for instance before, before you came to the country when you were still in
Italy studying architecture and then after you got to America,
it was very much a maybe romantic or a fantasy modern reality. The only
back only had really was,
it was funny, it was Jack London and angry. Right? Remember when I was
going to teens reading just about everything that was angry? So Arizona
was some kind of a thing. Me there,
I didn't well, the influence of the american
civilization was very important throughout the war. It was a sudden
explosion on a
european continent of this new great power Americana Americana and,
and then the Hollywood, you know, influence that was an impact that it's
hard to
evaluate in other films from Hollywood where we don't always even during
the fascist area. So that's interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Yes.
So that was quite a,
in a way, a very artificial, but in other ways now I found quite realistic
and, and telling thing about the american culture. Could you tell us a
little bit about your impressions of what what the american civilization
would be like? And then, uh, maybe what it was like, you know,
you mean how I felt when I came here. Well, your, your initial impression
of what, what for instance, the urban cities would, what, what the urban
centers would be like. And then, uh, when you came here and saw what they
were like, I didn't really think so much in terms of cities because what
attracted me was frankly, right, the anti city man and then the american
landscape, frankly that was told the influence of Jacqueline and zombie.
So those were the two elements more than more than, you know, the feeling
about the great cities though. I had a little, I knew a little about new
york, Chicago san Francisco, new Orleans. How did you, how did you picture
those cities before? You don't,
it's mostly from photographs and he'll say and some reading. So I couldn't
really tell it at this point. I don't remember frankly. And what was your
impression when you got here and saw what New York was like? For instance
, I watched New York for 25 days from Ellis Island and it was quite an
experience because visually was quite an experience really because you
would see some for into the sunset against the outline the skyline of new
york, which was really terrific.
But then my experience was the big picked up by the by the police and the
Allison been taken in to be questioned in new york. So those big cars, you
know, you're not used in Italy with enormous cars, you get in turn to the
ferry boat, then they put you in this enormous car in your drive through
the, on the freeways and you go out into a dingy straight. And then so
that was an experience which wasn't exactly the, the great democratic and
the great american trees. Yeah. Um, but then I was in new york for a few
days before I left and that was an experienced. What did you think about
the city itself, the way from an architectural standpoint
more than architecturally that, which somehow it was pretty, yeah, all and
course was the life of life, you know the intense life and the turbulence
and the aggressiveness that you would feel just by walking throughout
Manhattan and when I speak of new york, I really speak a few blocks
because I don't really know new york modern, its own center. You were
telling me the other day that for instance uh the cities in Italy differed
quite a bit, you know the way the cities were laid out and uh then the
american cities and you mentioned to me the other day that you had
expected this very progressive, very progressive direction in american
cities and when you got over here it wasn't quite that way at all. Yeah,
probably san Francisco and new Orleans might be might have some elements
in common with, let's say the italian cities and maybe new Orleans, modern
modern san Francisco. Uh well the italian cities, the european cities were
really built, you know for for the persons, for the people, for the
pedestrians so that they are like large living rooms in their own best
aspects. Oh no living spaces for the american city, this is not true. The
outside is just a service kind of pattern that you fall in order to get
somewhere. So the street has become the road and where in italy it used to
be almost a playground and a place where you meet and you promenade you
you have your own social life partially outside of your quarters, which
explains why we don't feel cramped or secluded in apartment houses because
part of the living room is down downstairs where meet with other people.
In other words, sort of the giant meeting room where all the people can
congregate, Congregate and get together. Now this is not becoming less and
less true even in europe because of the injection of the traffic.
And I think this is a great loss because it somehow defeats the purpose of
of transportation. Transportation should transport people to the centers
of communal activity, of intercourse, of meeting and what it does, it
really separates segregate people more than connecting them. What happened
? How did you hear about frank Lloyd Wright's for instance, to know that
you wanted to come and stay with a man? Well in its university, in its
school of architecture, you would have a little library and then naturally
a student, you are trying to get information about what's happening in
other countries. And we got some books about frank Lloyd wright just at
the beginning of the war. And so we started to know about him and in many
ways franklin was better known in europe than in the States at that time.
That probably doesn't hold quite as true today as it did then because
he's become I guess more famous over the past 15 or 20 years uh when you
came here. What do you think you gained in the year and a half that you
spent studying with him? That perhaps you you didn't have before? Maybe
the greatest gain was the coherence of the environment that you were put
in? It was no matter how you might judge the quality of the nature of the
aim of the environment development was it has an integrity that it's very
rarely found anywhere else. So this is a very important
element and that's really what we're missing in the environment. The
integrity of the coherence, the, the trust, the goal for something, the
seeking of something. And as I understand frank, Lloyd wright and you
probably understand it much better. So you can, you can correct me if I'm
wrong. But in his structures, he took in consideration the the setting
that they would be in the environment that they would be in. And he built
according to that as opposed to building according to uh you know, we need
a business building. So let's slap this thing up. You know, he did take
some consideration for the type of activity that would take place in it
and also the surrounding area. And that is that, is that what you gained?
Yes. This is the part of the integrity. Was this disability to become part
of the landscape in both places. Yes, in east, in Wisconsin and Taliesin
West in Paradise Valley. Very striking examples of two ways of approaching
the shelter and The Life of Men in two Different Environments?
What did you, what did you do after after leaving the school? What what
were your plans at that time? Can you remember what your thoughts were? No
plans? I was at Los um but I was held by Mark was one of the boys left
with me. He was from Jerome is from jerome.
We can't and coming back and that mountain at the time there was anything
there and we did some work for a real estate. I was drafting some ideas
for houses for him. Then I did a computation for my town, the polytechnic
polytechnic competition. And then we start building this dome house in
Cape Creek for the lady that became my mother in law. And after we build a
house we got married and with my wife and we left for Italy for about five
years. You spent five years over in Italy. And what did you do in those
five years? We were in touring for a while cause I got acquainted with my
family, we had a first child Christine and then we moved south with the
intention of finding a place where we could learn a craft because by then
I decided I wouldn't make a leading my commissions in architecture. So I
was trying to get to find out what kind of craft activity could I get into
and make a living out of it. So we ended up in Vietnam, which is a small
town with, I mean a number of families producing islamics and we got
involved with one of the families and they asked us to build a factory. So
we build a ceramics factory there. And at the same time I learned some of
the skills and ceramics that you have since put to use. And then we came
here, we started doing ceramics later on, we got into the metal. Now when
you came back to the States after the five years, did you come to Arizona
initially? Is this right? We tried to santa fe for one summer but I I
intended to work outdoor. So we were doing ceramics outdoor and very often
and neither would freeze in the middle of august. So that was it. I
couldn't accept that. So we moved in Paradise Valley and uh is that the
present location there? We bought a little house which was one of the few
houses in Paradise Valley them. And then a few years later I was doing
ceramics on the spot. We had a fire in a pump hours where I was doing my
ceramic. So we built a shed and then from the shed we move into more
permanent structures. And so we have been building ever since. What what
sort of ceramics were you doing at that time? We were casting sleep
casting in molds cut into the ground. And we were doing bells because that
was the marketable item And it's still still the thing to do is very good
supporter, the foundation. That's one that's one thing that sort of amazes
me when I talk to people who live outside this area. And uh that's the
fact that a lot of people are familiar with who you are, but they're
familiar with you due to your bells rather than due to a lot of your ideas.
And I think that's kind of unusual. Maybe you should, maybe you should
include a pamphlet with each of your bells and we are doing that now, we
are very slow, but we are doing that. But now, now it's the moment moment
when those two things get together and they help each other. I've been
waiting for this month for a long time. Finally, the thing is clicking now
when you, after you started getting into the ceramics, when did you start
, When did you start coming into the type of ideas that you have uh that
you seem to have been coming into over the last 15 years or so about the
kinds of structures that you wanted to build and and things of this nature.
Your school for instance, I was spending part of my time in investigating
things on environmental field. I was doing sketches and reading and so on.
And then I got a grant from the Graham Foundation in Chicago for a study
for an urban center. So that gave me enough means to develop an idea and
get some help from young people. Then we got a second grand from the
Guggenheim grant from Guggenheim and then a second grand from the
Guggenheim and that as a product of those three grands, I ended up with
the MIT book their colleges in the last five years or six have been years
where I developed the psychological concept, which is what I'm involved,
okay, in the building facing, could you tell us a little bit about the
school, how that came about and how it's grown from when I was until? Yes
, and I felt that one of the very positive things about it, it was that
you had a family life in mashed into a larger activity, which was the
fellowship activity. So I felt that was very good, very positive and I'm
reaching. So I decided then and I would have liked to have something of
that sort, It took many years to get into it. But slowly we built up um
the means and way of attracting young people to come and be apprenticed or
participant in what we're doing and how did you go about that? For
instance, how does it differ now from when you initially started the
school, I started with one boy from Oklahoma, a young architect, he was
the three years, almost all by himself working with me and then with
grants coming, we got some students Experience three or 4 at the time from
different areas, one was Ivan Pinto, which is still with me. No, it does.
And then slowly we got involved with the university with the College of
Architecture in Tempe and they were sending us students from all over the
country in short workshops, six weeks in the middle of the summer we did
that for many years. The sill piles workshops. And then About three years
ago we enlarged the activity. We went into five workshops and this year we
had 11 And we are involving about 300 people this year. This uh, building
and construction
Workshop. In other words, in the last seven years you've gone from one to
about 300 students. And so let's say less than 10 years, 10 years you've
done very well. I think, you know, in a well it could be well, but I am
not complaining. One thing that sort of amazes me about you is the fact
that most of the things that you have done through your school and through
your work and everything have been basically on an individual basis. And
uh, you haven't, it doesn't seem that you go out of your way for instance
to get grants from people or you don't seem to go out of your way to try
to pull federal money into your projects and you seem to sort of enjoy
working more on your own. And well, if I, if I was, if I was almost killed
in getting help, I would go about it, but I'm very poor at it. So I feel I
waste my time really in doing those things. So now and then I try but it's
never sound or a positive.
They will come around probably now they're starting to watch because I'm
not just talking, I'm starting to do it. And at the beginning it was a
feeling of I was so crazy guy in the desert digging holes. Now, I'm a
crazy guy with some crazy theories, but those theories are becoming
accepted so that people start to read about and listen, once we get
something going on in terms of bricks or mortar or concrete that will come
and look. And then at that point someone might decide that there's
something very positive. I think one of the reasons that you're finding
more acceptance towards your theories and your ideas would perhaps be the
renewed interest in the ecology of the planet and the state of our
environment. I think that's probably a great deal of it. Yeah, that was a
real coincidence. It was fate or providence or what, but my book came out
just in time, the large exhibit, which is the museum now in phoenix, it
was ready just about when the ecology bombed exploded. So that that was,
as you said, very, very timely. One thing that uh, one thing that a lot of
people don't realize is that you've been working in uh the ecological
directions for years and years and years now rather than, you know, just
over the past, like most people, for instance, myself have a consciousness
of ecology that has been developed over the last couple of years. Whereas
it seems to be a concept that you've been working toward for quite a few
years. Yeah, I was always really surprised our little, the architects were
into study in the environmental problem in a large sense, the connection
between the man made and, and the natural. This was always, I couldn't
understand that. So I was involved in that Perhaps 15 years ago. Did you
see some of the problems or did you foresee some of the problems that have
arisen over the past five years? Let's say across the world, in fact, in a
necessary project, there is a, there is an element which indicates that I
have a recycling built which allows the city sunk in the ground because
it's not the nicest thing you can work with or look at, but this is a
recycling plant that it takes everything that the city rejects from
garbage to waste to use up equipment and recycles them into rubber
products or energy
fertilizer. The terrace is the cycle because one of the problems that we
are finally facing now is that all the cycles we hope and remain open and
that's what pollution is an open cycle right now. One of the things that
uh, that I wanted to get into our, our definitions of some words because I
know that uh, a lot of people for instance never even stopped to think
what a city really is. You know, they know that they live in one and they
know that there are a lot of things available to them there, but they
really have no concrete definition. And I think that you've taken some
steps in and defining some terms that that for instance, what do you see a
city as
well? You can see it on two levels. One is what I call the instrumental
level, which means it's that kind of large instrument that allows people
to work together to cooperate toward a certain environment, which is going
to enrich each participant in this environment is the cultural environment
that you can find only in the city. The instrumental level is involved all
the servicing all the elements that makes the physical life of the city
possible from delivery of everything to the tribal of everything. But if
the city stops there, it's very questionable the validity of it. The city
must go far beyond it and that's where you get into the social and
cultural aspects. So the city must be a center of cultural and
civilization. The city really has no point in existing outsider for those
reasons. Doesn't Yes, because it has a point. But it's a point that
somehow
takes the city to the level of the beehive or the termite.
I would call it nest, right? Anything that has social aspects, but it is
the pride of the cultural aspects which are the aspect that really makes
man what he is and what is that? Well, it the more you move into into the
stuff that makes men when it is, the more difficult is the definition
because we know very well that you cannot define God, you cannot define
beauty, you cannot define sentiments, you cannot define emotion and all
those things. So it's very difficult to say what culture is or what is the
sap that makes culture into the city. But it's felt very strongly when the
city is cultured and but there are institutions that are suggesting what
it is, institutions of learning, institutions of the play, institutions of
exchange, of ideas. And I got from from the written word, the spoken word
, written word to the visual aspects including television and radio. So I
need to come in at this point say at 7 30 that you're listening to K T K B
F M stereo in Mesa. And we were in the process of talking to mr paolo
Soleri about and we're finally working into some of his theories Now in
the last 60 or 70 years in the United States, we have seen this country
which is a rather large country grow from being a very rural type uh
nation into a to an urban nation, you feel that perhaps a lot of the
problems that we are experiencing in the cities we are experiencing
because of the rapid growth that we've seen over the past half century
definitely.
And uh huh and this is compounded by the, by the number, by the population
, by the, by the vastness like but the territory involved by the different
ethnic and cultural backgrounds and by technology, which is it can do the
most for us of the least. I can be good or can be evil depending on what
the user is that we make up. So most of the hills of this country are ills
are probably of youth in many ways youth complicated by by the shrinking
of the time schedules. We are dealing constantly with the shrinkage of
time, which means more things happen in shorter time slots but that
adolescent growth could very well put us into a life and death type
situation could Yes, because the number and because of power we are now we
are peculiarly apt destroying ourselves but also making ourselves in
something if not God like very very exciting and very exhilarating. It
depends on hospital. Do you think that
what do you think are the main problems for instance in american cities
today? And we'll take those as a specific, a specific well, I would say
the same problem that is in american society. I would say materialism is a
very okay problem. Could you expand on that? Well, we are finding out that
affluence. He's not such a blessing and we're finding out that it's not
such a blessing because afghans tends to to desensitize more than what we
were expecting. So instead of making people more sensitive to environment
, to other people, to the institutions that we have invented, we see that
people tends to be to withdraw or just to enjoy what we call the comfort
of a certain environment and ignore things which are for a very, very
important, such as such as the ability to to seek new things to not be
satisfied or what there is the ability to enjoy things of a more subtle
quality. Which means in general that we tend to uh huh to salt or to
reverse the process of life, which is the going from matter into spirit.
And if materialism is something is this this reversal so that we achieve a
certain point of affluence that I call opulence. And this condition seems
to be stopping this progression towards the spirit. I think that uh one
reason that that that could be true is it seems that the more affluent one
gets, the more one has to pursue one's influence. You know, it's not a
situation where people are able to attain something. And there it seems
that most of the people I've known who who are striving to be a fluid,
let's say were people who said I want to be a fluent because it's going to
afford me a large amount of time so that I'll be able to devote myself to
all of these uh well spirit really spiritual interests is what they boil
down to, but it never seems to quite happen that way. They always uh it's
another cycle that they seem to get hung up in because you have to pursue
it to continue and that seems that
nobody knows really exactly why it seems that the driving force that
society had at a certain point is disappearing and we have a breakdown
and when, when there are no goals to go after goals which are beyond the
individual and personal and strictly self centered,
uh huh opulence is the best thing to do. Let's get rich or semi rich or
safe and comfortable and that's it. In other words, let's pad our
existence from all of these other things around us that we don't want and
now we're finding out that this is not only too self centered to be really
meaningful, but it's also very dangerous and very destructive. Do you
think that there, you hear a lot of talk about the population explosion
for instance, and on one side, you have people for instance, in this
country particularly who say, well actually the birth rate of the United
States is decreasing and there is no population problem in this country,
and on the other hand, you have people who say, well, if we don't start
doing something about the population and by 1980 or by the turn of the
century, we're going to find ourselves in a position where there are
people starving and where the owner is to introduce the third dimension,
which means in a way, uh, let's say take a town like phoenix, cut it in uh
in blocks and then take each block and put it on top of the next. It
sounds very ridiculous to explain this way, but because you need a real
ranging really of many, many things when you do that. But by doing this,
you you make of phoenix a miniature of itself, which means you really put
each city dweller in phoenix at the center of the city. Now, I know a lot
on some of your structures they've been spoken of of being, for instance,
one mile square and very, very tall. And so you build, you know, you build
vertically, I suppose you would say yes. The reason for that is that if
you consider how we perform in our daily lives, You see that the
performance demands only about 10 ft in height. What demands very large
areas horizontally? So when you try to connect those areas horizontally,
you get in troubles. When you try to connect them vertical because you're
able to pile them up, then you see, immediately, I'll swift the connection
becomes not only that, but there's something peculiar about the difference
in the difference between the car behavior mod and elevator mode. The
current needs the road. The road becomes a divider separating separating
elements, It becomes a segregated elements. The elevator is able to do the
same thing fast better much faster and economically without separating
because it perforate through the performances instead of separating them,
cutting into them and separating them. So
I really think that the answer, the, the instrumental answer and
logistical answer to the problem of the cities is a congruence between the
horizontal dimensions and the vertical dimension. Mhm. Now, one of the uh
one of the things that you mentioned to me the other day when you were
talking was for instance, that each person would have, let's say, an
apartment somewhere in the city and what would be uh the normal, the
normal living space that would be appropriated to one person. It would
depend very much on the nature of the of the society that you are trying
to serve if you're serving an indian New Delhi, evidently you have a
certain space that this person needs because of his background. If you're
serving a new yorker, it's another space if you serve a Los Angelinos
might have to be a different space. In other words, your cities. One of
the things, I think that this is one thing I was noticing today when you
were giving your lecture, a lot of people felt that all of your cities
would look the same. You know, that they would all you would take, you,
you would say, well this is the design. You know, and we will take this
design and we'll put it in phoenix and we'll put it in new york and we'll
put it in Hong kong and we'll put it so and so and so and so and you
explained at the time that uh geographically in the first place, you could
not build the same type of city in each place. I believe one of the
instances you gave was that for instance, some cities would be too heavy
to build in some areas of the country. And uh could you explain that to us
how you would go about deciding what type of building each area? Yeah, the
work I have done up to now was to develop a concept, let's say based on
this little discovery that complexity has to deal with liveliness and you
have complexity only when when you are able to gather things which means
somehow miniature I think. And then around this, let's say discovery, I
worked out some inventions in very abstract terms and those are the
material of the book. Those are examples, very abstract examples of some
of the developments that could be made for different kinds of situations
for small urban centers, large urban centers and anything in between. So
the study uh diagrams, which is what they are, they're not blueprints,
they don't try to say this is already made city, you just build it in like
yeah, a set of blocks that use, assemble those are attempt to illustrate
the concept. Now, if a commission came evidently it would be for a
specific problem. So, you would like to get into the problem and find out
what the needs are. And then with as much knowledge as you can and how
much know how that you can gather around yourself. You go about the
problem, which means that each commissioned psychology would have a very
different aspect because of the social background, because of the
geographic, topographic, geological, climatological etcetera, etcetera
aspects of it. This is one thing, one thing that, that I find that you
differ in uh in a lot of other architects that at least I talked to and
that's uh that you seem to take a lot of different things into account
when when you are are thinking of building a structure or planning a city.
You know, you do take into account the social background, you do take
take into account a lot of the cultural aspects that other architects seem
to ignore. Do you think that this is perhaps some of the problem that
we've run into in our cities? The fact that we have considered things
strictly from an architectural standpoint and not from a social standpoint
? Well, I must say that it's easy to say, you know, they are taking care
of the situation is, but it's very difficult to do. So, I'm not pretending
that to say that I know that those things, so I'm going to take care of
them, but I I know that the problem the urban problem is in a way the most
complex problem we are faced with because it's so inclusive, it includes
the person, it include the society, it includes the institutions, include
the environment, pollution, the waste, everything. So that demands the
inclusion in the project phase of as much know how as you can. Yeah, at
the same time, just because it's a complex, you cannot simulate it because
you can simulate only problems of which you have knowledge of all the
parameters. So you go to the moon, you stimulate the moon trip. You know,
gravitational laws, astronomy gives you all the details you need physics
so that you don't even need to do the trip itself. You just get your
machines going and you simulate it. Well, this is not feasible when you're
dealing with human the human spirit, let's say take the most non separable
kind of stuff so that you must have enough courage to decide that at a
certain point of your story, in your development, in your collection of
data in your simulation, that you have to go beyond it and you have to
verify which means you have to build and then check And this is expensive.
This is one of my questions is this you've told me some of your reasons
behind the model city that you're building. But is this one of the reasons
the fact that that you are, this is the first step in and seeing exactly
what it would be. Uh
there is comes a moment when talking about something or writing about
something or collecting mountains of data becomes. So while a nonsensical
, I think especially now when when the problems are so immediate. So you
have to get into the pragmatic condition and do your best. Now you have
sort of termed are coined the term our ecology and I was wondering if you
might give us a definition of that particular word. Yeah, it was trying to
connect and just happened at the ecological
fashion came about connect ecology and architecture. So architecture
should be an activity that involves the environment of men. So our ecology
, it stands symbolizes this this fusion of the environment and the man,
the natural environment and the man made environment. I need to come in at
this point and say this is Katie KB FM, stereo and Mesa. And we are
talking to mr palmo salary are Ecologist, We will call him at this point.
Uh, yeah, it's very difficult to figure out what to call somebody Paula. I
could, you know, you end up having to reel off, you know, because man is a
complex animal. You have to reel off all of these descriptive terms. So
we'll just say that and let it go there. When how did how did you go about
deciding that you wanted to do it? And when did you decide? Well, now is
the time that I want to do it, etcetera. Could you just tell us a little
bit about how the model city? Well those things happen, you know in time
you you feel a certain way, a certain point and you feel a certain
frustration and you decided what you're doing is really important enough
to to demand for a greater effort. And slowly you get you convince
yourself that you must do something about moving from the theory from the
paper into the the reality. And this fact was the fact that we were
developing a certain power of attraction to not only young young people
but two people maybe decided I might as well go about it and try to build
something even if it sounds foolish and for the fun it's a word. And when
when exactly exactly did you start building C well three years ago we got
hold of the of the land which is about four schemas of that. We control
the foundation of the foundation and we We're still buying the land, we
have 860 acres that We own 331
of the things that we lease the government lease, where is it located? Its
cordes junction east coast disjunction and it's a little range. It's quite
a beautiful piece of land as a biography area cutting through a little
canyon. We have some farmland, we have power water access road and last
year we setup a little camp as a base camp and this year we're starting
the building itself. We are trying to keep visitors away from it because
we are really trying to get set up And it's very difficult. I know in the
initial stages to get things done and explain what you're doing at the
same time. How many people do you have up there working at the price of
time? We have about between 60 and 70 people from March until the middle
of November. But this involves about 300 different persons because they
come, most of them come for about six weeks workshops And they come in
groups of 60 or 70. No, the workshops overlaps. That's why we have two
groups always pleasant there. So the groups are between 25 and 35 each. So
they sum up to about 60. And and then we have uh we have a certain number
of staff members that are keeping the continuity and know how do you draw
those? Do you draw those people who are working on it from the
architecture students who come to study under you? No. At this point they
really come as a, as they happen to find out about the work and they're
right and we send them a certain information
material, including an application form. So if they get into, they apply
for it and then they established a date and they come, how do you go about
choosing the people who will be there in a way the selection is a negative
selection in the sense that we put fairly stiff demands on them with this
information package what sort of demands, where we are telling them that
they mustn't believe that they come in a city they're going to come to
begin the building of a small town. So they are pioneering there in the
wilderness. The facilities are minimal and primitive
secondly, to work hard because the premises are that we're going to build
something for the use of a certain society that which they might be part
later on. So they're not to come there to find a society nor to find the
facilities for the society. They come, they come there to begin this
process that works at a half hour day there to pay in order to work. So
it's a pretty stiff demand. In other words, the people, the people who
really do come are the people who are very interested in. You do you run
into situations where you have to weed people out very often, very rarely.
That doesn't mean that it's easy because for one I'm not what you might
call a social social person. I tend to be introverted if anything. And
then the demands we're putting them are quite demanding and many, many of
the people that come are not used to physical labor. For instance,
especially many of the girls, we have quite a number of girls. The
conditions are, the land is beautiful. The conditioners are not the
easiest because we have hot weather, cold weather, rain, wind, and so on.
But things are working out. We're learning quite a bit. Could you tell us
a little bit about the city itself, what, what the, what the structure
will be like, what sorts of things will be available inside and etcetera?
Well, it's really going to be a mini minimal city. We should call it a
town really and it's going to be about for about 3000 people if it's never
going to be completed And it occupies 1% of the land that we have, which
is a very important point. It's 10 acres of the 860 acres. We use only 10
acres for the building. The remaining is for the disposal of the dwellers.
Um, it's going to be an average of
26 or so floors. But some part of it goes higher than that. It's so small
that you actually don't need any transportation system inside. You just
walk there are elevators naturally throughout the building. And you are
wherever you you live your private life, you're in contact with the inside
and outside. So that you participate in most the outer life, the country
life. And uh, whatever city life you might have there in a very minimal
way. And we intend to put the accent on research because the, the
experiment itself is an inquiry on a possible uh, alternative to the urban
sprawl into the urban tangle in problems we are facing now. So you're
working out your theories and you're, you're becoming some kind of a
guinea pig for it. Can you really verify what you are talking about and
you're paying for it?
This is uh, this is one thing that how do you draw the funds for, for
instance, for the city? This is uh, do you have any idea how much it's
going to cost you to build this? To build this town? A very, very big idea.
If you put the price tag on about $10,000 per person, which means not
just living quarters, but the facilities that the utility the city can
give in terms of social and cultural aspects That for 3000 people be 30
millions. But I think that's a little conservative or optimistic if you
want. But is that what you said, if the city ever gets built when you were
speaking a few minutes ago, Do you have any doubts that it will?
Well, I don't like to be, you know, to optimistic at the same time. I
don't have any doubts that we are going to carry on the parts that we have
now and possibly make it larger and larger every year. So that as we are
dealing now with a few hundreds of people, maybe within five years, we are
dealing with a few thousands of people, which means that we are going to
increase the productivity and and the results that now only beginning to
be visible, What sorts of social and cultural things will there be in the
city available to the people there? Well as it is going to be in a way
like a campus because it involves a high percentage of young people and
this is because the young people are in a way more available for this kind
of experience. They're the ones that can afford a certain time and money
expands. And also they are very interesting because it's might be part of
their own future being in a way the accent on young people is going to be
very much of a campus like life, but at the same time we would like to
involve in fact, we're going to try to to put pills into communities
elderly because one thing I think we can do is to take care in the way of
the jury attic problem, which is a now I'm very sad in many ways, I agree
with you think it seems as though we've almost isolated old people into
parks in their homes, you know, So we would like to have elderly people
that are willing to work with young people and somehow give their own
wisdom or skills to the community. And I think they might find it very
rewarding because we have a bite people's around very willing to work and
and and it's nice to have a community where you have all ages involved
active actively and with hope and and some kind of the goal to work
towards how do you go about financing a project like this? This is going
to make you laugh um, until the payment for the land is completed, which
is going to be next year. We are only able to use the money, the fee money
that the students are being. That means that whatever we do in materials,
equipment and know how an energy is through this fee. So this is a minimal
amount of cash to this year to add the performance of the students
themselves. So it's not just the cash, but is the label that, that those,
those young people are bringing it. And I imagine it would be impossible
to put a price tag on that on the labor that they do themselves. I mean,
there's no telling how much money it would cost you to get that done if
they were to hire professional people to come in. So that's, that's one of
the assets naturally, that's not going to be sufficient. But if it is, if
it comes to be only that we're going to go on that way, which means we're
going to go very slowly. But so what, that's one thing that doesn't seem
to bother you. And that's one thing I find sort of admirable about you.
The fact that you, when you have been blocks set in your way. You don't
seem to mind particularly, you may mind, it doesn't stop you from
continuing on. Yeah. It's not that you don't mind? But there is no point
in a getting yourself tangled up in frustrations and desperation. And it
doesn't, it doesn't build into anything. So you might as well take to the
best of what you have then go on from there have any uh, for instance,
governmental figures or people who might be able to help them in the
financial aspect of the town approached you or shown any interest in it.
Yes, A number of people have shown interest, but for the moment, verbal
interest, as I was saying at the beginning, there is going to take a
little more hardware on the spot to convince people that we are really
going about it seriously. This is not a whim or a joke or for the past
time and this is a serious thing. We have many lives involved in this,
including my family's life and we had to sacrifice many things in order to
do this. But I'm lucky that my wife and our Children are are very, very
willing to do that. So, there's no problem there. And we tend to be tend
to have very small needs as far as persons. So our lives are very simple.
This is a good, good attraction for the young people because they see
that we are doing what we are preaching in a way. Um, so I think once a
institutions or people or the government see that something that is going
on, no matter the indifference that might be around, I think they're going
to come around and help. Do you find that you find it sort of strange that
you had to undertake this, not you, not you as an individual, but that one
would have to undertake something like this on an individual basis in the
face of all of the problems that that seemed to be in front of this
country at the particular time. Do you find it a little strange that
perhaps the government isn't doing its own experimenting and building its
own experimental cities and trying to come to some some answers of their
own? Yeah, I find I find it strange, but that somehow connects to my
theory that the most practical uh human being, which is the american
pragmatic man finds itself at this point in a very silly position which
cheers that the practical civilization is becoming unrealistic and utopian
in a very central sense. Can I read a quote from the new york times,
really follows that? Well, it's done by I believe her name is ada Louise
huxtable. This is an age that only recently ceased to discredit its
intellectuals and still distressed ideas. It's a society that is enshrined
pragmatism and subjects every thought and action to the decisive test.
Question is it practical? Based on whether or not it is practical. We
have built our world one practical decision after the other has led to the
brink of cosmic disaster and there we sit in pollution and chaos according
the end of the earth, and just how practical can you get? I thought that
was a really interesting opening to some of your theories. We discussed
that she came to the exhibit and we discussed that and I have my, you know
, I make a distinction of sharp distinction between practicality and
reality, and I feel that most of the time when we are very practical, we
are very unreal. And I know not in a pragmatic sense, not in a idealistic
sense, but in a realistic sense, in a day to day living sense, we are, we
are really losing track of the the bulk of reality by becoming so
practical about details and this is, this is evident at this point. One of
the criticisms if uh if I might be able to bring up some criticisms
concerning your ideas on city planning and things is that the human being
would lose a great deal of his privacy and being subjected to a very
communal atmosphere like your city would be uhh do you how do you feel
about that? I feel very strongly because it I feel that privacy is
absolutely fundamental. We must be able at any point of our daily life to
be as private as we want and as public as we want. So, the two things are
not exclusive. In fact, you can really be, let's say public when you know
that you can retreat in your privacy and my solicitor. So in order to have
both of them to serve both of them very well. And this is feasible. In
fact, it's one of the very important aspects of their ecology. How would
you go about this? How would you americans seem to be in some ways even
more private than than other peoples of the world? And definitely there
are a lot more indignant about anyone, anyone trespassing on their privacy.
How would you go about safeguarding that? Well, in very physical terms,
there is a certain gait, let's say uh door or uh separating elements that
puts a boundary between the public and the private and this. This doesn't
have to be the door to your apartment. Can be the door to your house or to
your home because you can build a very large mansion. Yeah, instead of on
the ground at a certain level. So it's not exclusively and parliament
leaving, which for many people might not be attractive. It's a living uh
different levels. And this has its own advantages besides the fact that it
connects everybody to the center of the city. As I was saying as advantage
, for instance, giving you a sweeping view of the landscape, which is a
great I think a spiritual um asset. It allows you to look not into the
back back yard of somebody else, but into into the backyard of nature.
Let's say the front yard of nature. This is something we were talking
about the other day about how americans seem to, they seem to be building
, you know, nine ft fences now to protect their privacy as opposed to to
really doing something so that they can. I think, I think what I'm trying
to get at is that americans seem to approach privacy very much on the
physical aspect and very rarely on a, on a mental or social. Uh yeah,
there is one thing that points at that and uh, it is that we have a great
pride and a great effort is put in this country to make everyone the
possessor and the older of a number of physical things. The hardware that
surrounds the american housewife, for the american man. It's incredible
the hardware and the energy needed to ground the hard way. And then when
we move into the mental, we see that we become more and more collectivized.
I think it should be the opposite. We can collective eyes the physical
because it's not just an instrument, it's not the meaning of life. And if
we collectivized the physical chances are we're going to find more freedom
for the mental. I think You can, there's a number of uh, examples that you
can use for that number one government encroachment would be, I guess
about the easiest, you know, the, the easiest thing to swing at, for
instance, you know, wiretapping, you know, all of the different things
that we've seen come into being over the last 10 years that didn't exist
before. And the fact that there always seemed to be people in your
neighborhood who are more than willing to know to want to know what's
going on in your home and things. But do you feel that perhaps, I think
government, government encroachment would be a very good example. Do you
feel that perhaps one of the reasons that governments have taken that step
is due to the fact that the cities have become so spread out and it's so
hard to to see what keep things together. Yes. That they feel that it's
necessary, otherwise they wouldn't know what was what was going on. In a
way, bureaucracy feeds upon itself and administration physical itself. So
the more you need a large bulk of organizational systems, the more those
those systems are going going to become larger. So what we have to do is
to try to find a way of reversing the process, make bureaucracies into
minimal systems so that they become really quick in their own reaction and
the responses are going to be commensurate to the needs. And in order to
do this, you have to set up more efficient systems. And one of my points
that I make on our colleges that for instance, phoenix needs, I don't know
how many policemen And it's where there are 500 policemen patrolling
Phoenix physically well, in an ecology of the equivalent size, probably
you will need 50. This means that your police force is going to become
less bureaucratically inclined is going to be more effective. It's going
to be known better by the by the population because we also know the
population. That's right. So that this is this is goes for any kind of
service for the city, garbage collection, mail delivery, all sorts of
delivery of foodstuff or any kind of hardware or software. Yeah. Mm. And
this means really the shrinking of the bureaucratic machinery to a
fraction of what it is. And this is absolutely central to the humaneness
of any kind of system. Over the years, we've seen the United States
government and without any political inference of any kind, it has become
less responsive and less responsive and less responsive to the people. And
I think that to me, it's not a case of maliciousness, so much as it's a
case of a there's really no other choice. The way the way conditions are
at this particular time. And I think that from that standpoint, you would
make government, whether it be city or regardless of what scale you want
to take it on, it would be much more responsive to citizens. I think so
because because it would be more uh huh the challenge is coming up would
be with the feedbacks would be quicker and the channels to go through will
be shorter. So that everything would become more more attuned to the needs.
Um which is again it's very well exemplified by by any any animal
structured by any biological system where you see that any challenge that
comes is swiftly recorded
and the response comes and most of the times response is the right scale
at the right moment with the right and the polarization, the right kind of
response when the animal becomes too big and the dinosaur might be a good
example. Very popular example, the animal becomes sluggish because you
lose the food and it takes five minutes to find out your was the food but
then your blood is gone and you die off. Which is very much what's
happening in big cities Now the government, it seems that a lot of times
the government either under response or over response. A lot of, a lot of
times you see uh you see the government use what I call overkill. And I
don't mean it in the literal sense of the word, but it is, it's overkill.
They they use five times maybe the energy that they need to take care of
a specific problem. Whereas if they had that problem right there at their
fingertips, then they would know that they would need that that exertion
of force that they display. And then there are very mechanical aspects
which are also very fundamental one for instance is the traffic that we
are, we are now using computers to make the red lights to synchronize them
and so on. Well the more again, you cannot use the size of those things,
the more effectiveness you're going to have in a production of swiftness
and flow. A lot of people talking particularly concerning the ecology and
the state that the world's in and a lot of people seem to give us no hope
whatsoever, as far as working out these uh what really monumental problems
that we face now, Do you feel that way? All of your, all of your theories
to me seem to be a very positive nature and not not preaching negatives
are negativism. And I was wondering, do you feel that you feel that we can
do? We have a good chance of working our way out of this. I think so life
is a very tough, very improbable, but very tough kind of phenomenon and I
think we're going to succeed, but we must, I think face the fact that the
environment is going to be taken care of and with environment mankind only
if we approach the environmental problem in one way, reverentially, if you
approach it in a coercive way, we're only going to get some results. If
you're going to approach it only through self interest, you're going to
get some results, but definitely not enough results only by reverently
facing it. Your words do it out of love. We are going to get answers. So
what we have to do is to produce Lovable centers where people are really
willing to be there because they love it. And that's I think that's the
only uh answer that has a future. Well, we didn't get to cover one tent of
what I hope to cover. And I mean that sincerely
I would like to I would like to have you back on perhaps a few months
later when you have continued construction on on your town. And maybe you
could give us a sort of a progress report and cover some of it because we
didn't even get into, We didn't even get into that as much as I wanted to.
But that's nice of you to say that. I would, I would really like uh I
would like for you to come back perhaps at the first of next year and talk
about it some with us if you could. And I have thoroughly enjoyed having
you here. I mean, thank you very much. I would like to say one thing if
you are as dissatisfied as I am over the sketchy way we've covered things
today. I would like to remind you that tomorrow night mr salary will be
giving an illustrated lecture, an open format, the phoenix art museum
auditorium. And I forget exactly the Singer Auditorium, that's what it's
called or something like that in the museum. I don't know, but it is in
the phoenix art museum which is located in Central and Mcdonnell. And if
perhaps your interest has been pricked a little bit by the interview
tonight or if we left some questions unanswered in your mind, we would
like to invite you up there tomorrow night. It will be at 7:30 and it's
going to include uh slides of I suppose the new city that's coming up and
some of your ideas, the size of the buildings we have in the slice of the
work that I've been doing, including the building that we're beginning now
, and also at the end of that, then you don't have a question and answer
session where people wanted to see in questions that you like I've been
doing tonight and they could do so. Right, Yes. All right, good. So that's
tomorrow night at 7:30 at the Phoenix Art Museum in the auditorium there
at central and McDonnell and admission is free to the public. And we would
like to invite you to uh perhaps go up and get answers to any of the
unanswered questions. And once again, I want to remind you of the fact
that paolo Soleri's exhibition is now at the phoenix art museum. And uh I
saw it today, it's well worth going to see and it's something that I hope
everybody in the valley will get an opportunity to look at before it
leaves and that will be november the seventh. It will be running through
that time and we need to put in one thing, this is Paula and his wife
always want us to tell you this so that you won't get mad at them when you
go up there and find it out, admission is a dollar for adults and 50 cents
for students, which I don't think is the least bit outrageous. And thank
you again. Thank you. I've enjoyed it. We have been talking to paolo
Soleri, our Ecologist for the last hour and a half about some of his ideas
and we do want to remind you that tomorrow night on forum will be talking
to a couple of the people from People for Peace, which is a high school
peace organization and one of the most active high school organizations in
the city. We'll be talking to brad scott and mike mike nellis and some
other goodies later on in the week, This has been Bill Compton, you're
listening to four.
You've been listening to forum, heard
monday through friday nights at seven o'clock on Katie KV FM, stereo and
Mesa.