WEBVTT

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This is forum, a

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public service feature of Katie Katie
radio.

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Yeah, good evening and welcome to
forum on a Tuesday night, october the

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12th, 1971. This is William Edward
compton. And tonight we are. I will use

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the word privileged and I don't use
the word lightly. We are privileged to

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have a gentleman in the control room
who I've been familiar with for a

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couple of years since coming to
Arizona and uh have been tremendously

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impressed with what I've seen in that
two year time. I'm speaking of mr

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Paulo Soleri who is known as an
architect, archaeologist, philosopher or a

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lot of other things depending on who
you're talking to. And a lot of

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different people seem to have a lot of
different ideas as to who he is and

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what he's doing. And so we thought
that maybe the best way to find out was

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invite him up and let him speak for
himself because we've managed over the

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past couple of weeks to talk to a lot
of other people. Currently, a couple

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of things we might mention, The fact
that the architectural vision of

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Paolo Soleri, which is an exhibit is
now showing at the Phoenix Art Museum

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are now on display I guess I should
say. And it's a culmination of about

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15 years of his life's work, something
that we had the opportunity to look

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at this afternoon and uh I would urge
everyone to get down there also

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something that will be coming up
tomorrow night. Well, we'll just go ahead

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and talk about that later. First. We
will say hello to Paula and Good

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evening, how are you tonight? Fine are
you? Just about just about Okay,

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first I would like to I would like to
go ahead and start off by you

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telling the audience a little bit
about you, something about your

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background,

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I am italian, I was born in Turin
which is an industrial town, a fairly

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sizable town for Italy and I spent my
life, my first part of my life, the

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school years there, I left Torino and
when I was 26 to come in this

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country and exactly, to be with Mr
Right, frank Lloyd Wright, I studied

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there in Torino, the School of Fine
Arts and then another point, technique

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, I became an architect, a regular
italian architect um When I came in

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this country, I was about 18 months
with Mr, right. two seasons, how old

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were you at that time, Paula when you
came 6,

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25, 26, 26, I think, so, I had a
certain background, I didn't come as

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young as many other students or
apprentices, but I'm very glad I came to

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be with Mr Lie, because it's quite an
experience in many ways, this is one

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thing that I think a lot of people
have a misunderstanding about and uh

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that is that a lot of people feel are
without having a, without being that

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familiar with your work, feel that you
drew a lot of your ideas from frank

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Lloyd Wright, and even though I
realized that you probably did learn a lot

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from the man, you already had a lot of
the things that you have been doing

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formulated at that time. A lot of, a
lot of the concepts more than not so

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much concepts, but really the
background, the cultural background and the

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kind of environment that I grew up and
from an architectural point of view

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, it was quite important because Italy
has quite a, quite a good

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architectural tradition in the way our
urban, urban tradition, modern

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architecture. So that was very, very
important. I think that remained with

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me up to today and in a way with
missile. I, there was a break because

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he's,

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he was a countryman fundamental right?
So this was a point where I can

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agree with his ideas but at the time
when I was there I didn't really know

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exactly what I would be doing. I knew
that things were not as I saw them

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and I wanted to do something about
them, but I don't know what at that

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point, could you tell us a little bit
about your impressions of America

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for instance before, before you came
to the country when you were still in

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Italy studying architecture and then
after you got to America,

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it was very much a maybe romantic or a
fantasy modern reality. The only

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back only had really was,

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it was funny, it was Jack London and
angry. Right? Remember when I was

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going to teens reading just about
everything that was angry? So Arizona

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was some kind of a thing. Me there,

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I didn't well, the influence of the
american

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civilization was very important
throughout the war. It was a sudden

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explosion on a

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european continent of this new great
power Americana Americana and,

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and then the Hollywood, you know,
influence that was an impact that it's

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hard to

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evaluate in other films from Hollywood
where we don't always even during

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the fascist area. So that's
interesting. I wasn't aware of that. Yes.

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So that was quite a,

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in a way, a very artificial, but in
other ways now I found quite realistic

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and, and telling thing about the
american culture. Could you tell us a

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little bit about your impressions of
what what the american civilization

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would be like? And then, uh, maybe
what it was like, you know,

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you mean how I felt when I came here.
Well, your, your initial impression

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of what, what for instance, the urban
cities would, what, what the urban

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centers would be like. And then, uh,
when you came here and saw what they

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were like, I didn't really think so
much in terms of cities because what

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attracted me was frankly, right, the
anti city man and then the american

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landscape, frankly that was told the
influence of Jacqueline and zombie.

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So those were the two elements more
than more than, you know, the feeling

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about the great cities though. I had a
little, I knew a little about new

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york, Chicago san Francisco, new
Orleans. How did you, how did you picture

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those cities before? You don't,

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it's mostly from photographs and he'll
say and some reading. So I couldn't

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really tell it at this point. I don't
remember frankly. And what was your

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impression when you got here and saw
what New York was like? For instance

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, I watched New York for 25 days from
Ellis Island and it was quite an

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experience because visually was quite
an experience really because you

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would see some for into the sunset
against the outline the skyline of new

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york, which was really terrific.

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But then my experience was the big
picked up by the by the police and the

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Allison been taken in to be questioned
in new york. So those big cars, you

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know, you're not used in Italy with
enormous cars, you get in turn to the

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ferry boat, then they put you in this
enormous car in your drive through

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the, on the freeways and you go out
into a dingy straight. And then so

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that was an experience which wasn't
exactly the, the great democratic and

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the great american trees. Yeah. Um,
but then I was in new york for a few

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days before I left and that was an
experienced. What did you think about

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the city itself, the way from an
architectural standpoint

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more than architecturally that, which
somehow it was pretty, yeah, all and

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course was the life of life, you know
the intense life and the turbulence

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and the aggressiveness that you would
feel just by walking throughout

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Manhattan and when I speak of new
york, I really speak a few blocks

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because I don't really know new york
modern, its own center. You were

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telling me the other day that for
instance uh the cities in Italy differed

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quite a bit, you know the way the
cities were laid out and uh then the

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american cities and you mentioned to
me the other day that you had

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expected this very progressive, very
progressive direction in american

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cities and when you got over here it
wasn't quite that way at all. Yeah,

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probably san Francisco and new Orleans
might be might have some elements

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in common with, let's say the italian
cities and maybe new Orleans, modern

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modern san Francisco. Uh well the
italian cities, the european cities were

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really built, you know for for the
persons, for the people, for the

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pedestrians so that they are like
large living rooms in their own best

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aspects. Oh no living spaces for the
american city, this is not true. The

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outside is just a service kind of
pattern that you fall in order to get

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somewhere. So the street has become
the road and where in italy it used to

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be almost a playground and a place
where you meet and you promenade you

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you have your own social life
partially outside of your quarters, which

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explains why we don't feel cramped or
secluded in apartment houses because

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part of the living room is down
downstairs where meet with other people.

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In other words, sort of the giant
meeting room where all the people can

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congregate, Congregate and get
together. Now this is not becoming less and

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less true even in europe because of
the injection of the traffic.

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And I think this is a great loss
because it somehow defeats the purpose of

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of transportation. Transportation
should transport people to the centers

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of communal activity, of intercourse,
of meeting and what it does, it

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really separates segregate people more
than connecting them. What happened

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? How did you hear about frank Lloyd
Wright's for instance, to know that

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you wanted to come and stay with a
man? Well in its university, in its

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school of architecture, you would have
a little library and then naturally

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a student, you are trying to get
information about what's happening in

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other countries. And we got some books
about frank Lloyd wright just at

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the beginning of the war. And so we
started to know about him and in many

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ways franklin was better known in
europe than in the States at that time.

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That probably doesn't hold quite as
true today as it did then because

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he's become I guess more famous over
the past 15 or 20 years uh when you

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came here. What do you think you
gained in the year and a half that you

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spent studying with him? That perhaps
you you didn't have before? Maybe

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the greatest gain was the coherence of
the environment that you were put

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in? It was no matter how you might
judge the quality of the nature of the

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aim of the environment development was
it has an integrity that it's very

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rarely found anywhere else. So this is
a very important

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element and that's really what we're
missing in the environment. The

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integrity of the coherence, the, the
trust, the goal for something, the

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seeking of something. And as I
understand frank, Lloyd wright and you

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probably understand it much better. So
you can, you can correct me if I'm

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wrong. But in his structures, he took
in consideration the the setting

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that they would be in the environment
that they would be in. And he built

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according to that as opposed to
building according to uh you know, we need

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a business building. So let's slap
this thing up. You know, he did take

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some consideration for the type of
activity that would take place in it

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and also the surrounding area. And
that is that, is that what you gained?

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Yes. This is the part of the
integrity. Was this disability to become part

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of the landscape in both places. Yes,
in east, in Wisconsin and Taliesin

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West in Paradise Valley. Very striking
examples of two ways of approaching

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the shelter and The Life of Men in two
Different Environments?

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What did you, what did you do after
after leaving the school? What what

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were your plans at that time? Can you
remember what your thoughts were? No

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plans? I was at Los um but I was held
by Mark was one of the boys left

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with me. He was from Jerome is from
jerome.

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We can't and coming back and that
mountain at the time there was anything

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there and we did some work for a real
estate. I was drafting some ideas

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for houses for him. Then I did a
computation for my town, the polytechnic

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polytechnic competition. And then we
start building this dome house in

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Cape Creek for the lady that became my
mother in law. And after we build a

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house we got married and with my wife
and we left for Italy for about five

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years. You spent five years over in
Italy. And what did you do in those

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five years? We were in touring for a
while cause I got acquainted with my

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family, we had a first child Christine
and then we moved south with the

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intention of finding a place where we
could learn a craft because by then

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I decided I wouldn't make a leading my
commissions in architecture. So I

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was trying to get to find out what
kind of craft activity could I get into

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and make a living out of it. So we
ended up in Vietnam, which is a small

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town with, I mean a number of families
producing islamics and we got

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involved with one of the families and
they asked us to build a factory. So

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we build a ceramics factory there. And
at the same time I learned some of

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the skills and ceramics that you have
since put to use. And then we came

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here, we started doing ceramics later
on, we got into the metal. Now when

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you came back to the States after the
five years, did you come to Arizona

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initially? Is this right? We tried to
santa fe for one summer but I I

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intended to work outdoor. So we were
doing ceramics outdoor and very often

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and neither would freeze in the middle
of august. So that was it. I

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couldn't accept that. So we moved in
Paradise Valley and uh is that the

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present location there? We bought a
little house which was one of the few

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houses in Paradise Valley them. And
then a few years later I was doing

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ceramics on the spot. We had a fire in
a pump hours where I was doing my

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ceramic. So we built a shed and then
from the shed we move into more

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permanent structures. And so we have
been building ever since. What what

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sort of ceramics were you doing at
that time? We were casting sleep

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casting in molds cut into the ground.
And we were doing bells because that

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was the marketable item And it's still
still the thing to do is very good

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supporter, the foundation. That's one
that's one thing that sort of amazes

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me when I talk to people who live
outside this area. And uh that's the

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fact that a lot of people are familiar
with who you are, but they're

00:16:15.409 --> 00:16:19.136
familiar with you due to your bells
rather than due to a lot of your ideas.

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And I think that's kind of unusual.
Maybe you should, maybe you should

00:16:21.649 --> 00:16:25.136
include a pamphlet with each of your
bells and we are doing that now, we

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are very slow, but we are doing that.
But now, now it's the moment moment

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when those two things get together and
they help each other. I've been

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waiting for this month for a long
time. Finally, the thing is clicking now

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when you, after you started getting
into the ceramics, when did you start

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, When did you start coming into the
type of ideas that you have uh that

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you seem to have been coming into over
the last 15 years or so about the

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kinds of structures that you wanted to
build and and things of this nature.

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Your school for instance, I was
spending part of my time in investigating

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things on environmental field. I was
doing sketches and reading and so on.

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And then I got a grant from the Graham
Foundation in Chicago for a study

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for an urban center. So that gave me
enough means to develop an idea and

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get some help from young people. Then
we got a second grand from the

00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.447
Guggenheim grant from Guggenheim and
then a second grand from the

00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:30.147
Guggenheim and that as a product of
those three grands, I ended up with

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the MIT book their colleges in the
last five years or six have been years

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where I developed the psychological
concept, which is what I'm involved,

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okay, in the building facing, could
you tell us a little bit about the

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school, how that came about and how
it's grown from when I was until? Yes

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, and I felt that one of the very
positive things about it, it was that

00:17:57.079 --> 00:18:03.826
you had a family life in mashed into a
larger activity, which was the

00:18:03.859 --> 00:18:10.217
fellowship activity. So I felt that
was very good, very positive and I'm

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reaching. So I decided then and I
would have liked to have something of

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that sort, It took many years to get
into it. But slowly we built up um

00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:29.140
the means and way of attracting young
people to come and be apprenticed or

00:18:29.500 --> 00:18:32.586
participant in what we're doing and
how did you go about that? For

00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:36.377
instance, how does it differ now from
when you initially started the

00:18:36.410 --> 00:18:42.066
school, I started with one boy from
Oklahoma, a young architect, he was

00:18:42.099 --> 00:18:47.226
the three years, almost all by himself
working with me and then with

00:18:47.259 --> 00:18:53.447
grants coming, we got some students
Experience three or 4 at the time from

00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:59.687
different areas, one was Ivan Pinto,
which is still with me. No, it does.

00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:03.786
And then slowly we got involved with
the university with the College of

00:19:03.819 --> 00:19:09.917
Architecture in Tempe and they were
sending us students from all over the

00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:14.667
country in short workshops, six weeks
in the middle of the summer we did

00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:21.076
that for many years. The sill piles
workshops. And then About three years

00:19:21.109 --> 00:19:25.347
ago we enlarged the activity. We went
into five workshops and this year we

00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:32.756
had 11 And we are involving about 300
people this year. This uh, building

00:19:32.789 --> 00:19:35.407
and construction

00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:39.367
Workshop. In other words, in the last
seven years you've gone from one to

00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:44.707
about 300 students. And so let's say
less than 10 years, 10 years you've

00:19:44.740 --> 00:19:50.476
done very well. I think, you know, in
a well it could be well, but I am

00:19:50.509 --> 00:19:54.586
not complaining. One thing that sort
of amazes me about you is the fact

00:19:54.619 --> 00:19:58.306
that most of the things that you have
done through your school and through

00:19:58.339 --> 00:20:02.357
your work and everything have been
basically on an individual basis. And

00:20:02.390 --> 00:20:05.957
uh, you haven't, it doesn't seem that
you go out of your way for instance

00:20:05.990 --> 00:20:09.217
to get grants from people or you don't
seem to go out of your way to try

00:20:09.250 --> 00:20:13.127
to pull federal money into your
projects and you seem to sort of enjoy

00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:18.036
working more on your own. And well, if
I, if I was, if I was almost killed

00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:22.437
in getting help, I would go about it,
but I'm very poor at it. So I feel I

00:20:22.470 --> 00:20:26.746
waste my time really in doing those
things. So now and then I try but it's

00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:33.506
never sound or a positive.

00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:38.407
They will come around probably now
they're starting to watch because I'm

00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:43.736
not just talking, I'm starting to do
it. And at the beginning it was a

00:20:43.769 --> 00:20:48.967
feeling of I was so crazy guy in the
desert digging holes. Now, I'm a

00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:54.976
crazy guy with some crazy theories,
but those theories are becoming

00:20:55.009 --> 00:20:59.776
accepted so that people start to read
about and listen, once we get

00:20:59.809 --> 00:21:06.357
something going on in terms of bricks
or mortar or concrete that will come

00:21:06.390 --> 00:21:10.076
and look. And then at that point
someone might decide that there's

00:21:10.109 --> 00:21:14.937
something very positive. I think one
of the reasons that you're finding

00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:18.496
more acceptance towards your theories
and your ideas would perhaps be the

00:21:18.529 --> 00:21:22.697
renewed interest in the ecology of the
planet and the state of our

00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:26.197
environment. I think that's probably a
great deal of it. Yeah, that was a

00:21:26.230 --> 00:21:32.947
real coincidence. It was fate or
providence or what, but my book came out

00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:39.556
just in time, the large exhibit, which
is the museum now in phoenix, it

00:21:39.589 --> 00:21:46.907
was ready just about when the ecology
bombed exploded. So that that was,

00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:52.546
as you said, very, very timely. One
thing that uh, one thing that a lot of

00:21:52.579 --> 00:21:55.617
people don't realize is that you've
been working in uh the ecological

00:21:55.650 --> 00:21:59.407
directions for years and years and
years now rather than, you know, just

00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.476
over the past, like most people, for
instance, myself have a consciousness

00:22:03.509 --> 00:22:07.677
of ecology that has been developed
over the last couple of years. Whereas

00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:10.367
it seems to be a concept that you've
been working toward for quite a few

00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:15.816
years. Yeah, I was always really
surprised our little, the architects were

00:22:15.849 --> 00:22:20.107
into study in the environmental
problem in a large sense, the connection

00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:27.107
between the man made and, and the
natural. This was always, I couldn't

00:22:27.140 --> 00:22:34.397
understand that. So I was involved in
that Perhaps 15 years ago. Did you

00:22:34.430 --> 00:22:37.566
see some of the problems or did you
foresee some of the problems that have

00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:42.726
arisen over the past five years? Let's
say across the world, in fact, in a

00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:47.046
necessary project, there is a, there
is an element which indicates that I

00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:52.256
have a recycling built which allows
the city sunk in the ground because

00:22:52.289 --> 00:22:56.907
it's not the nicest thing you can work
with or look at, but this is a

00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:01.486
recycling plant that it takes
everything that the city rejects from

00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:09.519
garbage to waste to use up equipment
and recycles them into rubber

00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:13.207
products or energy

00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:19.177
fertilizer. The terrace is the cycle
because one of the problems that we

00:23:19.210 --> 00:23:25.467
are finally facing now is that all the
cycles we hope and remain open and

00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:31.736
that's what pollution is an open cycle
right now. One of the things that

00:23:31.769 --> 00:23:35.387
uh, that I wanted to get into our, our
definitions of some words because I

00:23:35.420 --> 00:23:38.536
know that uh, a lot of people for
instance never even stopped to think

00:23:38.569 --> 00:23:41.836
what a city really is. You know, they
know that they live in one and they

00:23:41.869 --> 00:23:44.826
know that there are a lot of things
available to them there, but they

00:23:44.859 --> 00:23:47.687
really have no concrete definition.
And I think that you've taken some

00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:52.387
steps in and defining some terms that
that for instance, what do you see a

00:23:52.420 --> 00:23:54.806
city as

00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:59.076
well? You can see it on two levels.
One is what I call the instrumental

00:23:59.109 --> 00:24:06.236
level, which means it's that kind of
large instrument that allows people

00:24:06.269 --> 00:24:12.607
to work together to cooperate toward a
certain environment, which is going

00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:17.236
to enrich each participant in this
environment is the cultural environment

00:24:17.269 --> 00:24:23.417
that you can find only in the city.
The instrumental level is involved all

00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:28.746
the servicing all the elements that
makes the physical life of the city

00:24:28.779 --> 00:24:34.796
possible from delivery of everything
to the tribal of everything. But if

00:24:34.829 --> 00:24:39.867
the city stops there, it's very
questionable the validity of it. The city

00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:43.467
must go far beyond it and that's where
you get into the social and

00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:48.036
cultural aspects. So the city must be
a center of cultural and

00:24:48.069 --> 00:24:52.326
civilization. The city really has no
point in existing outsider for those

00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:57.576
reasons. Doesn't Yes, because it has a
point. But it's a point that

00:24:57.609 --> 00:24:59.607
somehow

00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:06.006
takes the city to the level of the
beehive or the termite.

00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:11.947
I would call it nest, right? Anything
that has social aspects, but it is

00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:16.597
the pride of the cultural aspects
which are the aspect that really makes

00:25:16.630 --> 00:25:24.630
man what he is and what is that? Well,
it the more you move into into the

00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.316
stuff that makes men when it is, the
more difficult is the definition

00:25:28.349 --> 00:25:31.897
because we know very well that you
cannot define God, you cannot define

00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:36.066
beauty, you cannot define sentiments,
you cannot define emotion and all

00:25:36.099 --> 00:25:41.576
those things. So it's very difficult
to say what culture is or what is the

00:25:41.609 --> 00:25:47.566
sap that makes culture into the city.
But it's felt very strongly when the

00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:53.506
city is cultured and but there are
institutions that are suggesting what

00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:59.746
it is, institutions of learning,
institutions of the play, institutions of

00:25:59.779 --> 00:26:05.336
exchange, of ideas. And I got from
from the written word, the spoken word

00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:11.657
, written word to the visual aspects
including television and radio. So I

00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:14.816
need to come in at this point say at 7
30 that you're listening to K T K B

00:26:14.849 --> 00:26:18.576
F M stereo in Mesa. And we were in the
process of talking to mr paolo

00:26:18.609 --> 00:26:23.377
Soleri about and we're finally working
into some of his theories Now in

00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:27.006
the last 60 or 70 years in the United
States, we have seen this country

00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:32.576
which is a rather large country grow
from being a very rural type uh

00:26:32.609 --> 00:26:36.657
nation into a to an urban nation, you
feel that perhaps a lot of the

00:26:36.690 --> 00:26:39.836
problems that we are experiencing in
the cities we are experiencing

00:26:39.869 --> 00:26:43.016
because of the rapid growth that we've
seen over the past half century

00:26:43.049 --> 00:26:45.506
definitely.

00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:51.336
And uh huh and this is compounded by
the, by the number, by the population

00:26:51.369 --> 00:26:59.306
, by the, by the vastness like but the
territory involved by the different

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:07.339
ethnic and cultural backgrounds and by
technology, which is it can do the

00:27:07.470 --> 00:27:14.407
most for us of the least. I can be
good or can be evil depending on what

00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:21.326
the user is that we make up. So most
of the hills of this country are ills

00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:27.026
are probably of youth in many ways
youth complicated by by the shrinking

00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:32.076
of the time schedules. We are dealing
constantly with the shrinkage of

00:27:32.109 --> 00:27:37.667
time, which means more things happen
in shorter time slots but that

00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:41.187
adolescent growth could very well put
us into a life and death type

00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:46.427
situation could Yes, because the
number and because of power we are now we

00:27:46.460 --> 00:27:52.937
are peculiarly apt destroying
ourselves but also making ourselves in

00:27:52.970 --> 00:27:58.957
something if not God like very very
exciting and very exhilarating. It

00:27:58.990 --> 00:28:03.306
depends on hospital. Do you think that

00:28:03.339 --> 00:28:06.736
what do you think are the main
problems for instance in american cities

00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:11.556
today? And we'll take those as a
specific, a specific well, I would say

00:28:11.589 --> 00:28:17.776
the same problem that is in american
society. I would say materialism is a

00:28:17.809 --> 00:28:24.937
very okay problem. Could you expand on
that? Well, we are finding out that

00:28:24.970 --> 00:28:29.526
affluence. He's not such a blessing
and we're finding out that it's not

00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:34.427
such a blessing because afghans tends
to to desensitize more than what we

00:28:34.460 --> 00:28:39.776
were expecting. So instead of making
people more sensitive to environment

00:28:39.809 --> 00:28:44.746
, to other people, to the institutions
that we have invented, we see that

00:28:44.779 --> 00:28:50.667
people tends to be to withdraw or just
to enjoy what we call the comfort

00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:56.967
of a certain environment and ignore
things which are for a very, very

00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:05.000
important, such as such as the ability
to to seek new things to not be

00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:12.627
satisfied or what there is the ability
to enjoy things of a more subtle

00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:19.857
quality. Which means in general that
we tend to uh huh to salt or to

00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:25.107
reverse the process of life, which is
the going from matter into spirit.

00:29:25.140 --> 00:29:30.677
And if materialism is something is
this this reversal so that we achieve a

00:29:30.710 --> 00:29:35.457
certain point of affluence that I call
opulence. And this condition seems

00:29:35.490 --> 00:29:41.967
to be stopping this progression
towards the spirit. I think that uh one

00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.826
reason that that that could be true is
it seems that the more affluent one

00:29:45.859 --> 00:29:50.056
gets, the more one has to pursue one's
influence. You know, it's not a

00:29:50.089 --> 00:29:54.467
situation where people are able to
attain something. And there it seems

00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:57.657
that most of the people I've known who
who are striving to be a fluid,

00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:01.137
let's say were people who said I want
to be a fluent because it's going to

00:30:01.170 --> 00:30:04.907
afford me a large amount of time so
that I'll be able to devote myself to

00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:08.917
all of these uh well spirit really
spiritual interests is what they boil

00:30:08.950 --> 00:30:13.256
down to, but it never seems to quite
happen that way. They always uh it's

00:30:13.289 --> 00:30:16.756
another cycle that they seem to get
hung up in because you have to pursue

00:30:16.789 --> 00:30:23.006
it to continue and that seems that

00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:28.766
nobody knows really exactly why it
seems that the driving force that

00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:34.707
society had at a certain point is
disappearing and we have a breakdown

00:30:34.740 --> 00:30:40.597
and when, when there are no goals to
go after goals which are beyond the

00:30:40.630 --> 00:30:46.306
individual and personal and strictly
self centered,

00:30:46.339 --> 00:30:51.967
uh huh opulence is the best thing to
do. Let's get rich or semi rich or

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:55.657
safe and comfortable and that's it. In
other words, let's pad our

00:30:55.690 --> 00:30:59.377
existence from all of these other
things around us that we don't want and

00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:04.647
now we're finding out that this is not
only too self centered to be really

00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.197
meaningful, but it's also very
dangerous and very destructive. Do you

00:31:08.230 --> 00:31:11.806
think that there, you hear a lot of
talk about the population explosion

00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:14.576
for instance, and on one side, you
have people for instance, in this

00:31:14.609 --> 00:31:17.967
country particularly who say, well
actually the birth rate of the United

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.236
States is decreasing and there is no
population problem in this country,

00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:24.066
and on the other hand, you have people
who say, well, if we don't start

00:31:24.099 --> 00:31:28.117
doing something about the population
and by 1980 or by the turn of the

00:31:28.150 --> 00:31:31.066
century, we're going to find ourselves
in a position where there are

00:31:31.099 --> 00:31:35.187
people starving and where the owner is
to introduce the third dimension,

00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:42.326
which means in a way, uh, let's say
take a town like phoenix, cut it in uh

00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:47.476
in blocks and then take each block and
put it on top of the next. It

00:31:47.509 --> 00:31:51.086
sounds very ridiculous to explain this
way, but because you need a real

00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:54.806
ranging really of many, many things
when you do that. But by doing this,

00:31:54.839 --> 00:32:00.597
you you make of phoenix a miniature of
itself, which means you really put

00:32:00.630 --> 00:32:07.407
each city dweller in phoenix at the
center of the city. Now, I know a lot

00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.417
on some of your structures they've
been spoken of of being, for instance,

00:32:10.450 --> 00:32:15.506
one mile square and very, very tall.
And so you build, you know, you build

00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:19.816
vertically, I suppose you would say
yes. The reason for that is that if

00:32:19.849 --> 00:32:25.036
you consider how we perform in our
daily lives, You see that the

00:32:25.069 --> 00:32:31.056
performance demands only about 10 ft
in height. What demands very large

00:32:31.089 --> 00:32:36.097
areas horizontally? So when you try to
connect those areas horizontally,

00:32:36.130 --> 00:32:40.207
you get in troubles. When you try to
connect them vertical because you're

00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.796
able to pile them up, then you see,
immediately, I'll swift the connection

00:32:44.829 --> 00:32:48.657
becomes not only that, but there's
something peculiar about the difference

00:32:48.690 --> 00:32:53.677
in the difference between the car
behavior mod and elevator mode. The

00:32:53.710 --> 00:32:57.947
current needs the road. The road
becomes a divider separating separating

00:32:57.980 --> 00:33:02.107
elements, It becomes a segregated
elements. The elevator is able to do the

00:33:02.140 --> 00:33:08.417
same thing fast better much faster and
economically without separating

00:33:08.450 --> 00:33:12.806
because it perforate through the
performances instead of separating them,

00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:19.506
cutting into them and separating them.
So

00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:26.006
I really think that the answer, the,
the instrumental answer and

00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:30.397
logistical answer to the problem of
the cities is a congruence between the

00:33:30.430 --> 00:33:36.197
horizontal dimensions and the vertical
dimension. Mhm. Now, one of the uh

00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:38.597
one of the things that you mentioned
to me the other day when you were

00:33:38.630 --> 00:33:42.046
talking was for instance, that each
person would have, let's say, an

00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:45.816
apartment somewhere in the city and
what would be uh the normal, the

00:33:45.849 --> 00:33:50.326
normal living space that would be
appropriated to one person. It would

00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:57.546
depend very much on the nature of the
of the society that you are trying

00:33:57.579 --> 00:34:02.976
to serve if you're serving an indian
New Delhi, evidently you have a

00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:08.407
certain space that this person needs
because of his background. If you're

00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:13.236
serving a new yorker, it's another
space if you serve a Los Angelinos

00:34:13.269 --> 00:34:17.157
might have to be a different space. In
other words, your cities. One of

00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:21.206
the things, I think that this is one
thing I was noticing today when you

00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:24.256
were giving your lecture, a lot of
people felt that all of your cities

00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:27.867
would look the same. You know, that
they would all you would take, you,

00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:30.537
you would say, well this is the
design. You know, and we will take this

00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:33.517
design and we'll put it in phoenix and
we'll put it in new york and we'll

00:34:33.550 --> 00:34:36.827
put it in Hong kong and we'll put it
so and so and so and so and you

00:34:36.860 --> 00:34:41.006
explained at the time that uh
geographically in the first place, you could

00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.217
not build the same type of city in
each place. I believe one of the

00:34:44.250 --> 00:34:48.206
instances you gave was that for
instance, some cities would be too heavy

00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:53.037
to build in some areas of the country.
And uh could you explain that to us

00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:58.486
how you would go about deciding what
type of building each area? Yeah, the

00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:04.146
work I have done up to now was to
develop a concept, let's say based on

00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:09.287
this little discovery that complexity
has to deal with liveliness and you

00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.557
have complexity only when when you are
able to gather things which means

00:35:12.590 --> 00:35:17.126
somehow miniature I think. And then
around this, let's say discovery, I

00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:21.037
worked out some inventions in very
abstract terms and those are the

00:35:21.070 --> 00:35:26.856
material of the book. Those are
examples, very abstract examples of some

00:35:26.889 --> 00:35:32.017
of the developments that could be made
for different kinds of situations

00:35:32.050 --> 00:35:38.066
for small urban centers, large urban
centers and anything in between. So

00:35:38.099 --> 00:35:44.026
the study uh diagrams, which is what
they are, they're not blueprints,

00:35:44.059 --> 00:35:49.506
they don't try to say this is already
made city, you just build it in like

00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:56.166
yeah, a set of blocks that use,
assemble those are attempt to illustrate

00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:59.767
the concept. Now, if a commission came
evidently it would be for a

00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:04.956
specific problem. So, you would like
to get into the problem and find out

00:36:04.989 --> 00:36:09.947
what the needs are. And then with as
much knowledge as you can and how

00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:13.006
much know how that you can gather
around yourself. You go about the

00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:18.736
problem, which means that each
commissioned psychology would have a very

00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:23.436
different aspect because of the social
background, because of the

00:36:23.469 --> 00:36:29.077
geographic, topographic, geological,
climatological etcetera, etcetera

00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:33.876
aspects of it. This is one thing, one
thing that, that I find that you

00:36:33.909 --> 00:36:38.026
differ in uh in a lot of other
architects that at least I talked to and

00:36:38.059 --> 00:36:40.947
that's uh that you seem to take a lot
of different things into account

00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:44.256
when when you are are thinking of
building a structure or planning a city.

00:36:44.289 --> 00:36:48.557
You know, you do take into account the
social background, you do take

00:36:48.590 --> 00:36:52.617
take into account a lot of the
cultural aspects that other architects seem

00:36:52.650 --> 00:36:55.646
to ignore. Do you think that this is
perhaps some of the problem that

00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.247
we've run into in our cities? The fact
that we have considered things

00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:02.166
strictly from an architectural
standpoint and not from a social standpoint

00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:08.227
? Well, I must say that it's easy to
say, you know, they are taking care

00:37:08.260 --> 00:37:11.717
of the situation is, but it's very
difficult to do. So, I'm not pretending

00:37:11.750 --> 00:37:16.177
that to say that I know that those
things, so I'm going to take care of

00:37:16.210 --> 00:37:23.967
them, but I I know that the problem
the urban problem is in a way the most

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.847
complex problem we are faced with
because it's so inclusive, it includes

00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:31.396
the person, it include the society, it
includes the institutions, include

00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:37.796
the environment, pollution, the waste,
everything. So that demands the

00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:44.336
inclusion in the project phase of as
much know how as you can. Yeah, at

00:37:44.369 --> 00:37:49.236
the same time, just because it's a
complex, you cannot simulate it because

00:37:49.269 --> 00:37:53.606
you can simulate only problems of
which you have knowledge of all the

00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:59.097
parameters. So you go to the moon, you
stimulate the moon trip. You know,

00:37:59.130 --> 00:38:06.816
gravitational laws, astronomy gives
you all the details you need physics

00:38:06.849 --> 00:38:12.666
so that you don't even need to do the
trip itself. You just get your

00:38:12.699 --> 00:38:16.416
machines going and you simulate it.
Well, this is not feasible when you're

00:38:16.449 --> 00:38:21.916
dealing with human the human spirit,
let's say take the most non separable

00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:29.586
kind of stuff so that you must have
enough courage to decide that at a

00:38:29.619 --> 00:38:32.816
certain point of your story, in your
development, in your collection of

00:38:32.849 --> 00:38:37.376
data in your simulation, that you have
to go beyond it and you have to

00:38:37.409 --> 00:38:42.977
verify which means you have to build
and then check And this is expensive.

00:38:43.010 --> 00:38:47.456
This is one of my questions is this
you've told me some of your reasons

00:38:47.489 --> 00:38:51.106
behind the model city that you're
building. But is this one of the reasons

00:38:51.139 --> 00:38:55.307
the fact that that you are, this is
the first step in and seeing exactly

00:38:55.340 --> 00:38:58.256
what it would be. Uh

00:38:58.289 --> 00:39:01.697
there is comes a moment when talking
about something or writing about

00:39:01.730 --> 00:39:09.730
something or collecting mountains of
data becomes. So while a nonsensical

00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:15.316
, I think especially now when when the
problems are so immediate. So you

00:39:15.349 --> 00:39:20.577
have to get into the pragmatic
condition and do your best. Now you have

00:39:20.610 --> 00:39:25.546
sort of termed are coined the term our
ecology and I was wondering if you

00:39:25.579 --> 00:39:30.727
might give us a definition of that
particular word. Yeah, it was trying to

00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:36.287
connect and just happened at the
ecological

00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:41.376
fashion came about connect ecology and
architecture. So architecture

00:39:41.409 --> 00:39:48.256
should be an activity that involves
the environment of men. So our ecology

00:39:48.289 --> 00:39:56.289
, it stands symbolizes this this
fusion of the environment and the man,

00:39:56.610 --> 00:39:59.947
the natural environment and the man
made environment. I need to come in at

00:39:59.980 --> 00:40:03.557
this point and say this is Katie KB
FM, stereo and Mesa. And we are

00:40:03.590 --> 00:40:08.376
talking to mr palmo salary are
Ecologist, We will call him at this point.

00:40:08.409 --> 00:40:12.686
Uh, yeah, it's very difficult to
figure out what to call somebody Paula. I

00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:16.557
could, you know, you end up having to
reel off, you know, because man is a

00:40:16.590 --> 00:40:19.907
complex animal. You have to reel off
all of these descriptive terms. So

00:40:19.940 --> 00:40:24.117
we'll just say that and let it go
there. When how did how did you go about

00:40:24.150 --> 00:40:28.787
deciding that you wanted to do it? And
when did you decide? Well, now is

00:40:28.820 --> 00:40:31.557
the time that I want to do it,
etcetera. Could you just tell us a little

00:40:31.590 --> 00:40:35.376
bit about how the model city? Well
those things happen, you know in time

00:40:35.409 --> 00:40:40.336
you you feel a certain way, a certain
point and you feel a certain

00:40:40.369 --> 00:40:44.456
frustration and you decided what
you're doing is really important enough

00:40:44.489 --> 00:40:51.217
to to demand for a greater effort. And
slowly you get you convince

00:40:51.250 --> 00:40:56.456
yourself that you must do something
about moving from the theory from the

00:40:56.489 --> 00:41:02.617
paper into the the reality. And this
fact was the fact that we were

00:41:02.650 --> 00:41:08.046
developing a certain power of
attraction to not only young young people

00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:13.867
but two people maybe decided I might
as well go about it and try to build

00:41:13.900 --> 00:41:21.900
something even if it sounds foolish
and for the fun it's a word. And when

00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:27.727
when exactly exactly did you start
building C well three years ago we got

00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:32.436
hold of the of the land which is about
four schemas of that. We control

00:41:32.469 --> 00:41:37.727
the foundation of the foundation and
we We're still buying the land, we

00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:43.077
have 860 acres that We own 331

00:41:43.110 --> 00:41:46.977
of the things that we lease the
government lease, where is it located? Its

00:41:47.010 --> 00:41:52.327
cordes junction east coast disjunction
and it's a little range. It's quite

00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:56.807
a beautiful piece of land as a
biography area cutting through a little

00:41:56.840 --> 00:42:04.336
canyon. We have some farmland, we have
power water access road and last

00:42:04.369 --> 00:42:08.566
year we setup a little camp as a base
camp and this year we're starting

00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:13.217
the building itself. We are trying to
keep visitors away from it because

00:42:13.250 --> 00:42:17.546
we are really trying to get set up And
it's very difficult. I know in the

00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:20.546
initial stages to get things done and
explain what you're doing at the

00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:23.267
same time. How many people do you have
up there working at the price of

00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:30.006
time? We have about between 60 and 70
people from March until the middle

00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:35.436
of November. But this involves about
300 different persons because they

00:42:35.469 --> 00:42:39.756
come, most of them come for about six
weeks workshops And they come in

00:42:39.789 --> 00:42:45.077
groups of 60 or 70. No, the workshops
overlaps. That's why we have two

00:42:45.110 --> 00:42:50.506
groups always pleasant there. So the
groups are between 25 and 35 each. So

00:42:50.539 --> 00:42:54.557
they sum up to about 60. And and then
we have uh we have a certain number

00:42:54.590 --> 00:43:01.657
of staff members that are keeping the
continuity and know how do you draw

00:43:01.690 --> 00:43:04.347
those? Do you draw those people who
are working on it from the

00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:09.166
architecture students who come to
study under you? No. At this point they

00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:15.416
really come as a, as they happen to
find out about the work and they're

00:43:15.449 --> 00:43:20.666
right and we send them a certain
information

00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:25.247
material, including an application
form. So if they get into, they apply

00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:29.307
for it and then they established a
date and they come, how do you go about

00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:35.186
choosing the people who will be there
in a way the selection is a negative

00:43:35.219 --> 00:43:42.017
selection in the sense that we put
fairly stiff demands on them with this

00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:47.407
information package what sort of
demands, where we are telling them that

00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.686
they mustn't believe that they come in
a city they're going to come to

00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.747
begin the building of a small town. So
they are pioneering there in the

00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:02.756
wilderness. The facilities are minimal
and primitive

00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:07.416
secondly, to work hard because the
premises are that we're going to build

00:44:07.449 --> 00:44:11.566
something for the use of a certain
society that which they might be part

00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:17.186
later on. So they're not to come there
to find a society nor to find the

00:44:17.219 --> 00:44:20.586
facilities for the society. They come,
they come there to begin this

00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:26.776
process that works at a half hour day
there to pay in order to work. So

00:44:26.809 --> 00:44:31.057
it's a pretty stiff demand. In other
words, the people, the people who

00:44:31.090 --> 00:44:34.597
really do come are the people who are
very interested in. You do you run

00:44:34.630 --> 00:44:39.456
into situations where you have to weed
people out very often, very rarely.

00:44:39.489 --> 00:44:45.387
That doesn't mean that it's easy
because for one I'm not what you might

00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:51.247
call a social social person. I tend to
be introverted if anything. And

00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:57.896
then the demands we're putting them
are quite demanding and many, many of

00:44:57.929 --> 00:45:00.856
the people that come are not used to
physical labor. For instance,

00:45:00.889 --> 00:45:04.387
especially many of the girls, we have
quite a number of girls. The

00:45:04.420 --> 00:45:07.637
conditions are, the land is beautiful.
The conditioners are not the

00:45:07.670 --> 00:45:14.579
easiest because we have hot weather,
cold weather, rain, wind, and so on.

00:45:14.590 --> 00:45:16.590
But things are working out. We're learning quite a bit. Could you tell us

00:45:20.349 --> 00:45:23.907
a little bit about the city itself,
what, what the, what the structure

00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:28.756
will be like, what sorts of things
will be available inside and etcetera?

00:45:28.789 --> 00:45:34.767
Well, it's really going to be a mini
minimal city. We should call it a

00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.956
town really and it's going to be about
for about 3000 people if it's never

00:45:38.989 --> 00:45:44.816
going to be completed And it occupies
1% of the land that we have, which

00:45:44.849 --> 00:45:50.367
is a very important point. It's 10
acres of the 860 acres. We use only 10

00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:56.256
acres for the building. The remaining
is for the disposal of the dwellers.

00:45:56.289 --> 00:46:00.847
 Um, it's going to be an average of

00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:07.557
26 or so floors. But some part of it
goes higher than that. It's so small

00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:11.267
that you actually don't need any
transportation system inside. You just

00:46:11.300 --> 00:46:17.927
walk there are elevators naturally
throughout the building. And you are

00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:23.947
wherever you you live your private
life, you're in contact with the inside

00:46:23.980 --> 00:46:29.347
and outside. So that you participate
in most the outer life, the country

00:46:29.380 --> 00:46:33.717
life. And uh, whatever city life you
might have there in a very minimal

00:46:33.750 --> 00:46:40.896
way. And we intend to put the accent
on research because the, the

00:46:40.929 --> 00:46:48.316
experiment itself is an inquiry on a
possible uh, alternative to the urban

00:46:48.349 --> 00:46:53.537
sprawl into the urban tangle in
problems we are facing now. So you're

00:46:53.570 --> 00:46:57.657
working out your theories and you're,
you're becoming some kind of a

00:46:57.690 --> 00:47:03.157
guinea pig for it. Can you really
verify what you are talking about and

00:47:03.190 --> 00:47:05.847
you're paying for it?

00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:09.876
This is uh, this is one thing that how
do you draw the funds for, for

00:47:09.909 --> 00:47:13.396
instance, for the city? This is uh, do
you have any idea how much it's

00:47:13.429 --> 00:47:17.816
going to cost you to build this? To
build this town? A very, very big idea.

00:47:17.849 --> 00:47:23.706
If you put the price tag on about
$10,000 per person, which means not

00:47:23.739 --> 00:47:26.967
just living quarters, but the
facilities that the utility the city can

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:33.077
give in terms of social and cultural
aspects That for 3000 people be 30

00:47:33.110 --> 00:47:36.666
millions. But I think that's a little
conservative or optimistic if you

00:47:36.699 --> 00:47:42.586
want. But is that what you said, if
the city ever gets built when you were

00:47:42.619 --> 00:47:47.287
speaking a few minutes ago, Do you
have any doubts that it will?

00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:54.467
Well, I don't like to be, you know, to
optimistic at the same time. I

00:47:54.500 --> 00:47:57.347
don't have any doubts that we are
going to carry on the parts that we have

00:47:57.380 --> 00:48:03.186
now and possibly make it larger and
larger every year. So that as we are

00:48:03.219 --> 00:48:05.887
dealing now with a few hundreds of
people, maybe within five years, we are

00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.347
dealing with a few thousands of
people, which means that we are going to

00:48:09.380 --> 00:48:17.380
increase the productivity and and the
results that now only beginning to

00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:23.606
be visible, What sorts of social and
cultural things will there be in the

00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:27.927
city available to the people there?
Well as it is going to be in a way

00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:32.537
like a campus because it involves a
high percentage of young people and

00:48:32.570 --> 00:48:36.287
this is because the young people are
in a way more available for this kind

00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:42.307
of experience. They're the ones that
can afford a certain time and money

00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:47.577
expands. And also they are very
interesting because it's might be part of

00:48:47.610 --> 00:48:53.767
their own future being in a way the
accent on young people is going to be

00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:58.526
very much of a campus like life, but
at the same time we would like to

00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:05.037
involve in fact, we're going to try to
to put pills into communities

00:49:05.070 --> 00:49:10.117
elderly because one thing I think we
can do is to take care in the way of

00:49:10.150 --> 00:49:18.057
the jury attic problem, which is a now
I'm very sad in many ways, I agree

00:49:18.090 --> 00:49:21.537
with you think it seems as though
we've almost isolated old people into

00:49:21.570 --> 00:49:25.967
parks in their homes, you know, So we
would like to have elderly people

00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:29.387
that are willing to work with young
people and somehow give their own

00:49:29.420 --> 00:49:33.586
wisdom or skills to the community. And
I think they might find it very

00:49:33.619 --> 00:49:39.936
rewarding because we have a bite
people's around very willing to work and

00:49:39.969 --> 00:49:46.376
and and it's nice to have a community
where you have all ages involved

00:49:46.409 --> 00:49:52.606
active actively and with hope and and
some kind of the goal to work

00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:58.977
towards how do you go about financing
a project like this? This is going

00:49:59.010 --> 00:50:04.376
to make you laugh um, until the
payment for the land is completed, which

00:50:04.409 --> 00:50:10.077
is going to be next year. We are only
able to use the money, the fee money

00:50:10.110 --> 00:50:15.756
that the students are being. That
means that whatever we do in materials,

00:50:15.789 --> 00:50:23.057
equipment and know how an energy is
through this fee. So this is a minimal

00:50:23.090 --> 00:50:28.506
amount of cash to this year to add the
performance of the students

00:50:28.539 --> 00:50:33.026
themselves. So it's not just the cash,
but is the label that, that those,

00:50:33.059 --> 00:50:37.506
those young people are bringing it.
And I imagine it would be impossible

00:50:37.539 --> 00:50:41.097
to put a price tag on that on the
labor that they do themselves. I mean,

00:50:41.130 --> 00:50:43.927
there's no telling how much money it
would cost you to get that done if

00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.997
they were to hire professional people
to come in. So that's, that's one of

00:50:48.030 --> 00:50:54.606
the assets naturally, that's not going
to be sufficient. But if it is, if

00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:59.117
it comes to be only that we're going
to go on that way, which means we're

00:50:59.150 --> 00:51:03.407
going to go very slowly. But so what,
that's one thing that doesn't seem

00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:06.376
to bother you. And that's one thing I
find sort of admirable about you.

00:51:06.409 --> 00:51:09.977
The fact that you, when you have been
blocks set in your way. You don't

00:51:10.010 --> 00:51:14.356
seem to mind particularly, you may
mind, it doesn't stop you from

00:51:14.389 --> 00:51:19.356
continuing on. Yeah. It's not that you
don't mind? But there is no point

00:51:19.389 --> 00:51:25.997
in a getting yourself tangled up in
frustrations and desperation. And it

00:51:26.030 --> 00:51:30.907
doesn't, it doesn't build into
anything. So you might as well take to the

00:51:30.940 --> 00:51:36.686
best of what you have then go on from
there have any uh, for instance,

00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.896
governmental figures or people who
might be able to help them in the

00:51:39.929 --> 00:51:44.227
financial aspect of the town
approached you or shown any interest in it.

00:51:44.260 --> 00:51:48.456
Yes, A number of people have shown
interest, but for the moment, verbal

00:51:48.489 --> 00:51:52.307
interest, as I was saying at the
beginning, there is going to take a

00:51:52.340 --> 00:51:56.387
little more hardware on the spot to
convince people that we are really

00:51:56.420 --> 00:52:02.077
going about it seriously. This is not
a whim or a joke or for the past

00:52:02.110 --> 00:52:06.517
time and this is a serious thing. We
have many lives involved in this,

00:52:06.550 --> 00:52:13.347
including my family's life and we had
to sacrifice many things in order to

00:52:13.380 --> 00:52:21.380
do this. But I'm lucky that my wife
and our Children are are very, very

00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:27.436
willing to do that. So, there's no
problem there. And we tend to be tend

00:52:27.469 --> 00:52:32.436
to have very small needs as far as
persons. So our lives are very simple.

00:52:32.469 --> 00:52:35.887
This is a good, good attraction for
the young people because they see

00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:43.407
that we are doing what we are
preaching in a way. Um, so I think once a

00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:47.847
institutions or people or the
government see that something that is going

00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:51.827
on, no matter the indifference that
might be around, I think they're going

00:52:51.860 --> 00:52:56.686
to come around and help. Do you find
that you find it sort of strange that

00:52:56.719 --> 00:53:00.967
you had to undertake this, not you,
not you as an individual, but that one

00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:05.097
would have to undertake something like
this on an individual basis in the

00:53:05.130 --> 00:53:08.776
face of all of the problems that that
seemed to be in front of this

00:53:08.809 --> 00:53:11.577
country at the particular time. Do you
find it a little strange that

00:53:11.610 --> 00:53:14.486
perhaps the government isn't doing its
own experimenting and building its

00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:17.856
own experimental cities and trying to
come to some some answers of their

00:53:17.889 --> 00:53:22.396
own? Yeah, I find I find it strange,
but that somehow connects to my

00:53:22.429 --> 00:53:29.517
theory that the most practical uh
human being, which is the american

00:53:29.550 --> 00:53:35.376
pragmatic man finds itself at this
point in a very silly position which

00:53:35.409 --> 00:53:41.506
cheers that the practical civilization
is becoming unrealistic and utopian

00:53:41.539 --> 00:53:48.026
in a very central sense. Can I read a
quote from the new york times,

00:53:48.059 --> 00:53:54.197
really follows that? Well, it's done
by I believe her name is ada Louise

00:53:54.230 --> 00:53:58.767
huxtable. This is an age that only
recently ceased to discredit its

00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:02.867
intellectuals and still distressed
ideas. It's a society that is enshrined

00:54:02.900 --> 00:54:06.666
pragmatism and subjects every thought
and action to the decisive test.

00:54:06.699 --> 00:54:10.177
Question is it practical? Based on
whether or not it is practical. We

00:54:10.210 --> 00:54:13.376
have built our world one practical
decision after the other has led to the

00:54:13.409 --> 00:54:17.697
brink of cosmic disaster and there we
sit in pollution and chaos according

00:54:17.730 --> 00:54:21.197
the end of the earth, and just how
practical can you get? I thought that

00:54:21.230 --> 00:54:26.017
was a really interesting opening to
some of your theories. We discussed

00:54:26.050 --> 00:54:30.986
that she came to the exhibit and we
discussed that and I have my, you know

00:54:31.019 --> 00:54:34.106
, I make a distinction of sharp
distinction between practicality and

00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:38.066
reality, and I feel that most of the
time when we are very practical, we

00:54:38.099 --> 00:54:44.227
are very unreal. And I know not in a
pragmatic sense, not in a idealistic

00:54:44.260 --> 00:54:48.517
sense, but in a realistic sense, in a
day to day living sense, we are, we

00:54:48.550 --> 00:54:54.126
are really losing track of the the
bulk of reality by becoming so

00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:59.747
practical about details and this is,
this is evident at this point. One of

00:54:59.780 --> 00:55:04.166
the criticisms if uh if I might be
able to bring up some criticisms

00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:08.467
concerning your ideas on city planning
and things is that the human being

00:55:08.500 --> 00:55:12.626
would lose a great deal of his privacy
and being subjected to a very

00:55:12.659 --> 00:55:17.876
communal atmosphere like your city
would be uhh do you how do you feel

00:55:17.909 --> 00:55:23.626
about that? I feel very strongly
because it I feel that privacy is

00:55:23.659 --> 00:55:30.526
absolutely fundamental. We must be
able at any point of our daily life to

00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:35.057
be as private as we want and as public
as we want. So, the two things are

00:55:35.090 --> 00:55:39.396
not exclusive. In fact, you can really
be, let's say public when you know

00:55:39.429 --> 00:55:44.447
that you can retreat in your privacy
and my solicitor. So in order to have

00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:49.117
both of them to serve both of them
very well. And this is feasible. In

00:55:49.150 --> 00:55:55.977
fact, it's one of the very important
aspects of their ecology. How would

00:55:56.010 --> 00:56:01.086
you go about this? How would you
americans seem to be in some ways even

00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:04.227
more private than than other peoples
of the world? And definitely there

00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:07.836
are a lot more indignant about anyone,
anyone trespassing on their privacy.

00:56:07.869 --> 00:56:12.287
How would you go about safeguarding
that? Well, in very physical terms,

00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:19.336
there is a certain gait, let's say uh
door or uh separating elements that

00:56:19.369 --> 00:56:24.666
puts a boundary between the public and
the private and this. This doesn't

00:56:24.699 --> 00:56:27.977
have to be the door to your apartment.
Can be the door to your house or to

00:56:28.010 --> 00:56:33.137
your home because you can build a very
large mansion. Yeah, instead of on

00:56:33.170 --> 00:56:37.267
the ground at a certain level. So it's
not exclusively and parliament

00:56:37.300 --> 00:56:42.037
leaving, which for many people might
not be attractive. It's a living uh

00:56:42.070 --> 00:56:46.486
different levels. And this has its own
advantages besides the fact that it

00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:49.697
connects everybody to the center of
the city. As I was saying as advantage

00:56:49.730 --> 00:56:55.677
, for instance, giving you a sweeping
view of the landscape, which is a

00:56:55.710 --> 00:57:03.710
great I think a spiritual um asset. It
allows you to look not into the

00:57:04.769 --> 00:57:08.557
back back yard of somebody else, but
into into the backyard of nature.

00:57:08.590 --> 00:57:12.177
Let's say the front yard of nature.
This is something we were talking

00:57:12.210 --> 00:57:15.066
about the other day about how
americans seem to, they seem to be building

00:57:15.099 --> 00:57:19.796
, you know, nine ft fences now to
protect their privacy as opposed to to

00:57:19.829 --> 00:57:24.347
really doing something so that they
can. I think, I think what I'm trying

00:57:24.380 --> 00:57:27.416
to get at is that americans seem to
approach privacy very much on the

00:57:27.449 --> 00:57:33.956
physical aspect and very rarely on a,
on a mental or social. Uh yeah,

00:57:33.989 --> 00:57:40.896
there is one thing that points at that
and uh, it is that we have a great

00:57:40.929 --> 00:57:46.546
pride and a great effort is put in
this country to make everyone the

00:57:46.579 --> 00:57:51.506
possessor and the older of a number of
physical things. The hardware that

00:57:51.539 --> 00:57:56.997
surrounds the american housewife, for
the american man. It's incredible

00:57:57.030 --> 00:58:01.566
the hardware and the energy needed to
ground the hard way. And then when

00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:07.186
we move into the mental, we see that
we become more and more collectivized.

00:58:07.219 --> 00:58:10.787
I think it should be the opposite. We
can collective eyes the physical

00:58:10.820 --> 00:58:15.526
because it's not just an instrument,
it's not the meaning of life. And if

00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:18.856
we collectivized the physical chances
are we're going to find more freedom

00:58:18.889 --> 00:58:24.597
for the mental. I think You can,
there's a number of uh, examples that you

00:58:24.630 --> 00:58:28.287
can use for that number one government
encroachment would be, I guess

00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:32.166
about the easiest, you know, the, the
easiest thing to swing at, for

00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:34.706
instance, you know, wiretapping, you
know, all of the different things

00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:37.546
that we've seen come into being over
the last 10 years that didn't exist

00:58:37.579 --> 00:58:41.227
before. And the fact that there always
seemed to be people in your

00:58:41.260 --> 00:58:44.186
neighborhood who are more than willing
to know to want to know what's

00:58:44.219 --> 00:58:48.217
going on in your home and things. But
do you feel that perhaps, I think

00:58:48.250 --> 00:58:51.217
government, government encroachment
would be a very good example. Do you

00:58:51.250 --> 00:58:54.097
feel that perhaps one of the reasons
that governments have taken that step

00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:57.956
is due to the fact that the cities
have become so spread out and it's so

00:58:57.989 --> 00:59:03.097
hard to to see what keep things
together. Yes. That they feel that it's

00:59:03.130 --> 00:59:07.546
necessary, otherwise they wouldn't
know what was what was going on. In a

00:59:07.579 --> 00:59:11.776
way, bureaucracy feeds upon itself and
administration physical itself. So

00:59:11.809 --> 00:59:19.336
the more you need a large bulk of
organizational systems, the more those

00:59:19.369 --> 00:59:22.407
those systems are going going to
become larger. So what we have to do is

00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:27.307
to try to find a way of reversing the
process, make bureaucracies into

00:59:27.340 --> 00:59:34.686
minimal systems so that they become
really quick in their own reaction and

00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:39.057
the responses are going to be
commensurate to the needs. And in order to

00:59:39.090 --> 00:59:45.327
do this, you have to set up more
efficient systems. And one of my points

00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:49.316
that I make on our colleges that for
instance, phoenix needs, I don't know

00:59:49.349 --> 00:59:55.787
how many policemen And it's where
there are 500 policemen patrolling

00:59:55.820 --> 01:00:00.037
Phoenix physically well, in an ecology
of the equivalent size, probably

01:00:00.070 --> 01:00:04.686
you will need 50. This means that your
police force is going to become

01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:09.916
less bureaucratically inclined is
going to be more effective. It's going

01:00:09.949 --> 01:00:14.316
to be known better by the by the
population because we also know the

01:00:14.349 --> 01:00:19.256
population. That's right. So that this
is this is goes for any kind of

01:00:19.289 --> 01:00:24.197
service for the city, garbage
collection, mail delivery, all sorts of

01:00:24.230 --> 01:00:32.230
delivery of foodstuff or any kind of
hardware or software. Yeah. Mm. And

01:00:33.309 --> 01:00:36.856
this means really the shrinking of the
bureaucratic machinery to a

01:00:36.889 --> 01:00:41.697
fraction of what it is. And this is
absolutely central to the humaneness

01:00:41.730 --> 01:00:46.077
of any kind of system. Over the years,
we've seen the United States

01:00:46.110 --> 01:00:49.336
government and without any political
inference of any kind, it has become

01:00:49.369 --> 01:00:52.967
less responsive and less responsive
and less responsive to the people. And

01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:56.936
I think that to me, it's not a case of
maliciousness, so much as it's a

01:00:56.969 --> 01:01:00.947
case of a there's really no other
choice. The way the way conditions are

01:01:00.980 --> 01:01:04.586
at this particular time. And I think
that from that standpoint, you would

01:01:04.619 --> 01:01:08.807
make government, whether it be city or
regardless of what scale you want

01:01:08.840 --> 01:01:12.256
to take it on, it would be much more
responsive to citizens. I think so

01:01:12.289 --> 01:01:17.977
because because it would be more uh
huh the challenge is coming up would

01:01:18.010 --> 01:01:23.126
be with the feedbacks would be quicker
and the channels to go through will

01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:30.776
be shorter. So that everything would
become more more attuned to the needs.

01:01:30.809 --> 01:01:36.166
Um which is again it's very well
exemplified by by any any animal

01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:41.927
structured by any biological system
where you see that any challenge that

01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:45.376
comes is swiftly recorded

01:01:45.409 --> 01:01:50.307
and the response comes and most of the
times response is the right scale

01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:58.340
at the right moment with the right and
the polarization, the right kind of

01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:03.336
response when the animal becomes too
big and the dinosaur might be a good

01:02:03.369 --> 01:02:08.756
example. Very popular example, the
animal becomes sluggish because you

01:02:08.789 --> 01:02:12.697
lose the food and it takes five
minutes to find out your was the food but

01:02:12.730 --> 01:02:16.396
then your blood is gone and you die
off. Which is very much what's

01:02:16.429 --> 01:02:20.126
happening in big cities Now the
government, it seems that a lot of times

01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:23.577
the government either under response
or over response. A lot of, a lot of

01:02:23.610 --> 01:02:27.856
times you see uh you see the
government use what I call overkill. And I

01:02:27.889 --> 01:02:30.916
don't mean it in the literal sense of
the word, but it is, it's overkill.

01:02:30.949 --> 01:02:34.927
They they use five times maybe the
energy that they need to take care of

01:02:34.960 --> 01:02:38.646
a specific problem. Whereas if they
had that problem right there at their

01:02:38.679 --> 01:02:41.577
fingertips, then they would know that
they would need that that exertion

01:02:41.610 --> 01:02:46.456
of force that they display. And then
there are very mechanical aspects

01:02:46.489 --> 01:02:53.396
which are also very fundamental one
for instance is the traffic that we

01:02:53.429 --> 01:02:57.727
are, we are now using computers to
make the red lights to synchronize them

01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:01.657
and so on. Well the more again, you
cannot use the size of those things,

01:03:01.690 --> 01:03:05.847
the more effectiveness you're going to
have in a production of swiftness

01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:10.927
and flow. A lot of people talking
particularly concerning the ecology and

01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:14.597
the state that the world's in and a
lot of people seem to give us no hope

01:03:14.630 --> 01:03:18.677
whatsoever, as far as working out
these uh what really monumental problems

01:03:18.710 --> 01:03:23.807
that we face now, Do you feel that
way? All of your, all of your theories

01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:29.186
to me seem to be a very positive
nature and not not preaching negatives

01:03:29.219 --> 01:03:32.967
are negativism. And I was wondering,
do you feel that you feel that we can

01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:37.157
do? We have a good chance of working
our way out of this. I think so life

01:03:37.190 --> 01:03:42.097
is a very tough, very improbable, but
very tough kind of phenomenon and I

01:03:42.130 --> 01:03:48.447
think we're going to succeed, but we
must, I think face the fact that the

01:03:48.480 --> 01:03:52.387
environment is going to be taken care
of and with environment mankind only

01:03:52.420 --> 01:03:58.206
if we approach the environmental
problem in one way, reverentially, if you

01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:03.287
approach it in a coercive way, we're
only going to get some results. If

01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:06.256
you're going to approach it only
through self interest, you're going to

01:04:06.289 --> 01:04:10.867
get some results, but definitely not
enough results only by reverently

01:04:10.900 --> 01:04:15.887
facing it. Your words do it out of
love. We are going to get answers. So

01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:19.997
what we have to do is to produce
Lovable centers where people are really

01:04:20.030 --> 01:04:24.876
willing to be there because they love
it. And that's I think that's the

01:04:24.909 --> 01:04:32.909
only uh answer that has a future.
Well, we didn't get to cover one tent of

01:04:33.610 --> 01:04:37.057
what I hope to cover. And I mean that
sincerely

01:04:37.090 --> 01:04:40.756
I would like to I would like to have
you back on perhaps a few months

01:04:40.789 --> 01:04:45.066
later when you have continued
construction on on your town. And maybe you

01:04:45.099 --> 01:04:48.336
could give us a sort of a progress
report and cover some of it because we

01:04:48.369 --> 01:04:51.876
didn't even get into, We didn't even
get into that as much as I wanted to.

01:04:51.909 --> 01:04:56.137
But that's nice of you to say that. I
would, I would really like uh I

01:04:56.170 --> 01:04:59.597
would like for you to come back
perhaps at the first of next year and talk

01:04:59.630 --> 01:05:03.276
about it some with us if you could.
And I have thoroughly enjoyed having

01:05:03.309 --> 01:05:07.597
you here. I mean, thank you very much.
I would like to say one thing if

01:05:07.630 --> 01:05:11.807
you are as dissatisfied as I am over
the sketchy way we've covered things

01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:16.336
today. I would like to remind you that
tomorrow night mr salary will be

01:05:16.369 --> 01:05:19.617
giving an illustrated lecture, an open
format, the phoenix art museum

01:05:19.650 --> 01:05:23.017
auditorium. And I forget exactly the
Singer Auditorium, that's what it's

01:05:23.050 --> 01:05:26.566
called or something like that in the
museum. I don't know, but it is in

01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:29.597
the phoenix art museum which is
located in Central and Mcdonnell. And if

01:05:29.630 --> 01:05:33.467
perhaps your interest has been pricked
a little bit by the interview

01:05:33.500 --> 01:05:37.396
tonight or if we left some questions
unanswered in your mind, we would

01:05:37.429 --> 01:05:41.467
like to invite you up there tomorrow
night. It will be at 7:30 and it's

01:05:41.500 --> 01:05:46.186
going to include uh slides of I
suppose the new city that's coming up and

01:05:46.219 --> 01:05:52.456
some of your ideas, the size of the
buildings we have in the slice of the

01:05:52.489 --> 01:05:55.947
work that I've been doing, including
the building that we're beginning now

01:05:55.980 --> 01:05:59.767
, and also at the end of that, then
you don't have a question and answer

01:05:59.800 --> 01:06:02.497
session where people wanted to see in
questions that you like I've been

01:06:02.530 --> 01:06:07.157
doing tonight and they could do so.
Right, Yes. All right, good. So that's

01:06:07.190 --> 01:06:10.336
tomorrow night at 7:30 at the Phoenix
Art Museum in the auditorium there

01:06:10.369 --> 01:06:13.827
at central and McDonnell and admission
is free to the public. And we would

01:06:13.860 --> 01:06:17.376
like to invite you to uh perhaps go up
and get answers to any of the

01:06:17.409 --> 01:06:20.276
unanswered questions. And once again,
I want to remind you of the fact

01:06:20.309 --> 01:06:26.517
that paolo Soleri's exhibition is now
at the phoenix art museum. And uh I

01:06:26.550 --> 01:06:30.026
saw it today, it's well worth going to
see and it's something that I hope

01:06:30.059 --> 01:06:32.637
everybody in the valley will get an
opportunity to look at before it

01:06:32.670 --> 01:06:35.666
leaves and that will be november the
seventh. It will be running through

01:06:35.699 --> 01:06:39.347
that time and we need to put in one
thing, this is Paula and his wife

01:06:39.380 --> 01:06:41.896
always want us to tell you this so
that you won't get mad at them when you

01:06:41.929 --> 01:06:45.126
go up there and find it out, admission
is a dollar for adults and 50 cents

01:06:45.159 --> 01:06:48.896
for students, which I don't think is
the least bit outrageous. And thank

01:06:48.929 --> 01:06:52.907
you again. Thank you. I've enjoyed it.
We have been talking to paolo

01:06:52.940 --> 01:06:57.486
Soleri, our Ecologist for the last
hour and a half about some of his ideas

01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:00.986
and we do want to remind you that
tomorrow night on forum will be talking

01:07:01.019 --> 01:07:03.887
to a couple of the people from People
for Peace, which is a high school

01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:08.086
peace organization and one of the most
active high school organizations in

01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:11.566
the city. We'll be talking to brad
scott and mike mike nellis and some

01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:14.227
other goodies later on in the week,
This has been Bill Compton, you're

01:07:14.260 --> 01:07:19.347
listening to four.

01:07:19.380 --> 01:07:27.380
You've been listening to forum, heard

01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:31.827
monday through friday nights at seven
o'clock on Katie KV FM, stereo and

01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:33.860
Mesa.