WEBVTT 00:00:03.140 --> 00:00:05.140 mm. Yeah, 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:26.826 Paulo Soleri city is designed in the image of man and efficient, complex 00:00:26.859 --> 00:00:31.387 in one complete miniature package, a completely functional form, just like 00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:36.476 our bodies. Today, we live in the city in the image of the car, a city in 00:00:36.509 --> 00:00:41.677 fragments connected by asphalt arteries. Solari City and archaeology calls. 00:00:41.710 --> 00:00:46.546 It would gather and assemble those fragments. If you consider how we 00:00:46.579 --> 00:00:52.557 perform in our daily lives, You see that the performance demands only 00:00:52.590 --> 00:00:59.186 about 10 ft in height. What demands very large areas horizontally? So when 00:00:59.219 --> 00:01:03.307 you try to connect those areas horizontal, you're gettin troubles. When 00:01:03.340 --> 00:01:06.796 you try to connect them vertical because you're able to pile them up, then 00:01:06.829 --> 00:01:12.107 you see immediately I'll sweep. The connection becomes not only that, but 00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:15.656 there's something peculiar about the difference in the difference between 00:01:15.689 --> 00:01:20.706 the car behavioral mode and the elevator mode the car needs the road. The 00:01:20.739 --> 00:01:24.527 road becomes a divider separating separating elements, it becomes a 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:29.936 segregated elements The other later is able to do the same thing fast 00:01:29.969 --> 00:01:34.766 better much faster than economically without separating because it 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:40.296 perforate through the performances instead of separating them, coming into 00:01:40.329 --> 00:01:48.329 them and separating them. So, um, I really think that the answer, the, the 00:01:49.769 --> 00:01:55.087 instrumental answer and logistical answer to the problem of the cities is 00:01:55.120 --> 00:02:02.307 a congruence between the horizontal dimensions and vertical damage. 00:02:02.340 --> 00:02:06.887 Celery has already begun. One such city, Arcosanti and archaeology 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:10.566 designed for several 1000 people presently being built up near cordes 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.226 junction. If men can accept Arcosanti and other our colleges, if we can 00:02:15.259 --> 00:02:18.617 live their policy. Hilary hopes we will then be on the road to 00:02:18.650 --> 00:02:23.527 spirituality and obscure idea in a world where economics and politics have 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:26.886 nothing to do with justice. And more importantly, where people's 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:31.647 relationships have little to do with who they really are in Solaris book, 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.436 the bridge between Matter and Spirit is matter becoming spirit. He writes 00:02:35.469 --> 00:02:39.707 , we are what we make of our environment, heartless and popper environment 00:02:39.740 --> 00:02:43.547 does nothing more than reflect and denounce the harshness and indigent 00:02:43.580 --> 00:02:47.797 condition of our minds and souls. To change all this will require greater 00:02:47.830 --> 00:02:51.636 things than wealth and determination. It will require a definite moving 00:02:51.669 --> 00:02:56.777 away from materialism, determinism and arrogance. It will require a truly 00:02:56.810 --> 00:03:02.017 reverent attitude toward the sacrum mentality of all things. Last week I 00:03:02.050 --> 00:03:06.606 talked to paolo Soleri Arcosanti, his home and workshop in Paradise Valley. 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:09.807 I got there a little early so I spent some time just wandering around 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:14.047 watching people and looking at models of our colleges. I found Hilarion 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.476 one back workshop dressed light in the heat of the frame like Gandhi. It 00:03:18.509 --> 00:03:22.087 was there that we sat and talked for a while, salary seems like a quiet 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.156 man. He calls himself withdrawn, but he's not spear with his words. He 00:03:26.189 --> 00:03:30.307 speaks softly and distractedly as if he might be wasting his time. 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:34.226 Elaborating his ideas over the roar of the workshop fan and the voices of 00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:38.207 the workers at cassandra. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.557 Uh huh. Been reading your book the last couple of days wandering around 00:03:43.590 --> 00:03:51.367 here in your book. You talk a lot about your little one's a new one. You 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:57.957 talk a lot about complexity and miniaturization being married and uh 00:03:57.990 --> 00:04:02.017 wandering around here. I get the feeling of simplicity. Well yeah, this is 00:04:02.050 --> 00:04:04.987 this movie. Okay. 00:04:05.020 --> 00:04:11.916 Even looking at the designs of our quesadilla, you you have eliminated a 00:04:11.949 --> 00:04:16.767 lot of the needs that we find in the city. That to me is simplicity. So I 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:22.906 must I just have misinterpreted what you meant by that. 00:04:22.939 --> 00:04:27.707 I don't think so, complexity doesn't mean necessarily gadgets which are 00:04:27.740 --> 00:04:33.106 very complicated complexities, mainly 00:04:33.139 --> 00:04:39.387 her relationship with a mental Sure, you don't need necessarily a very 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:47.077 complicated machine. Yeah. Too complex environment. What makes for the 00:04:47.110 --> 00:04:55.110 complex environment is uh responsible for what you need to the needs of 00:04:55.769 --> 00:05:03.769 the life and develops the in a way the non 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:11.846 the non purely rational aspects. Yes. Uh 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:17.106 we can take two examples. So you saw the mom of uh 00:05:17.139 --> 00:05:23.796 anyone of the destruction that we are now. So they might look simple. They 00:05:23.829 --> 00:05:27.517 capable of uh 00:05:27.550 --> 00:05:29.606 certainly 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:37.106 individuals and groups in society in many different ways. So they have uh 00:05:37.139 --> 00:05:45.139 the ability to be very happy. Mhm. For this one needs and activities. A 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:55.106 lot of people today don't seem too willing to accept the the prospect of 00:05:55.139 --> 00:06:00.507 living in urban concentrations in the future there. 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:05.897 They're sick of and sick from the city. Yeah we have now. Well they never 00:06:05.930 --> 00:06:12.906 they never were able were allowed to really enjoy the city as it could be. 00:06:12.939 --> 00:06:19.476 Especially they see virtues in other environments. Like like a small 00:06:19.509 --> 00:06:25.757 village set that in your book you say You describe this kind of of sterile 00:06:25.790 --> 00:06:30.606 when you're describing the farms. 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:35.717 They see virtues in that as far as the community and the and the 00:06:35.750 --> 00:06:40.666 camaraderie between the people. Yeah. But it's a very elementary that's 00:06:40.699 --> 00:06:48.699 why something doesn't fit my vision of what reality is. It's a nostalgic 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:53.916 moving back to something that is irretrievable. Fortunately so, because 00:06:53.949 --> 00:07:01.949 life has to move, keep moving along, not cannot stop and then put reverse 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:10.257 gear, move back. You call it an elementary camaraderie. But it it seems to 00:07:10.290 --> 00:07:14.757 me to be in some ways linked up with what you call environmental knowledge 00:07:14.790 --> 00:07:18.687 which not knowledge stored in the mind but more more in the heart. Or 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:24.017 whatever The trouble is that environmental knowledge, it's a way of only 00:07:24.050 --> 00:07:29.866 one kind which is the kind in a sense that considered the advantage of the 00:07:29.899 --> 00:07:36.507 mind, what we call the natural economy. So that if your Children are 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:41.536 growing up in that kind of development to me, they are deprived of 00:07:41.569 --> 00:07:46.887 whatever civilization for good and evil has been able to come up with for 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:52.507 the mind of man. So, it's a novel simplify some of our solution for a 00:07:52.540 --> 00:07:57.366 problem. Which is tremendously complex. What specifically are they 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:04.197 deprived of? You mentioned are they are the pride of all the intermediary 00:08:04.230 --> 00:08:08.726 elements that we tend to call institutions that are going for the for the 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:14.447 communication for mm hmm. Trust overwhelming. Which is part of 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:22.480 civilization. And to put names on them. You can say, let's hear her 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:27.806 library disc attack uh 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:30.106 church. 00:08:30.139 --> 00:08:36.496 All the things that necessitate a certain critical temperature in order to 00:08:36.529 --> 00:08:42.106 develop to have substance and be afforded. So the little village might 00:08:42.139 --> 00:08:47.766 have a little library cannot have a substantial library. Might have a wind 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:52.096 instrument complex. A few people playing a guitar flute and so on. That 00:08:52.129 --> 00:09:00.129 cannot have a what you might call a great sound resource. Um, and if you 00:09:00.570 --> 00:09:06.537 if you look at what those institutions do, you might realize that that's 00:09:06.570 --> 00:09:12.057 part and parcel of the nature of man. You talk about two kinds of 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:16.356 knowledge, environment and synthetic. Did you give me a description event 00:09:16.389 --> 00:09:21.106 ? Yeah. Listen to acknowledge that. Well, it's not even knowledge, is its 00:09:21.139 --> 00:09:26.236 information. The information that you are you're going to transmit from 00:09:26.269 --> 00:09:34.106 this interview is going to be on the synthetic kind, which means Yeah, bye. 00:09:34.139 --> 00:09:40.707 Unknown voice is going to come out. We've got a number of sentences which 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:45.516 probably out of context very little so that this interview is going to 00:09:45.549 --> 00:09:52.707 meddle uh, environmental knowledge. Taking the same people involved would 00:09:52.740 --> 00:09:58.246 be for the viewer or the listener to come for instance and work here or 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:06.279 better there and get involved in the process of developing yeah. Things 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:10.287 which are only 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:12.606 remotely 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:20.639 discussed here or in your book. Would you call that, would you call the 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.896 information they're environmental or something? No, it's it's like I have 00:10:23.929 --> 00:10:31.929 a synthetic because it goes directly from from page into the brain and it 00:10:32.970 --> 00:10:37.797 just happened that the media is the the eye. But could be could be here is 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:42.697 instead of the group reading, you would listen to a record. Uh So what 00:10:42.730 --> 00:10:50.217 whenever we have a short mhm. Circuit that goes from a data into the brain 00:10:50.250 --> 00:10:58.250 , remote information. So all the electronic information is remote. Is it 00:10:58.389 --> 00:11:02.486 then very useful in our lives? It's tremendously important and 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:07.287 tremendously dangerous because of the remoteness and because of the very 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.486 special sharpness that it might have 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:19.519 when it deals with a very narrow band or any aspect of life. It's 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:25.116 synthetic knowledge than that has led us to where we are. And it's the um 00:11:25.149 --> 00:11:31.896 balancing of this more and more of the synthetic knowledge non balance by 00:11:31.929 --> 00:11:36.577 environmental information. Now, the environmental information is not along 00:11:36.610 --> 00:11:40.876 with the village for the wilderness. Environmental information is the 00:11:40.909 --> 00:11:47.846 wilderness. The village, town city, everything happened. So you also talk 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:55.879 about form and function, how foreign precedes from. Uh you give an 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:59.707 illustration of the giraffe. 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:07.740 How do you get along that and learn to use it uh to survive our Cassani is 00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:13.136 based on that and that. Uh you would build it and then then people would 00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:19.126 would go through uh a spiritual ization as they lived in. No, that's only 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:26.386 part of it. I think it's in the same paper, I'm saying that the city needs 00:12:26.419 --> 00:12:33.957 to be the place where two kinds of conditions are satisfied. one is the 00:12:33.990 --> 00:12:38.707 satisfaction of functions which we know of in the bathroom, in the kitchen 00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:46.407 , in the garage, a laundry place, you need a police station or whatever. 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:51.736 Those are known entity of the city. So the design of the city better 00:12:51.769 --> 00:12:57.276 cater to those necessities at the same time. That's not the neck of the 00:12:57.309 --> 00:13:03.256 giraffe which is developing uh someone sent without without apparent 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:08.947 meaning meaning is going to come out later on. So while you design the 00:13:08.980 --> 00:13:14.016 city in functional terms, you have to keep very present in your mind and 00:13:14.049 --> 00:13:18.177 the mind of the team that is going to design that there are elements which 00:13:18.210 --> 00:13:22.807 are not clear. They're not rational. They're not logical. There are 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.506 mysterious, they are 00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:29.697 geological magical, what are we going to call them? And those are the 00:13:29.730 --> 00:13:34.506 elements are going to make really make or break the city. Do you expect 00:13:34.539 --> 00:13:38.657 men to see those elements before they they pick up an idea like 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:45.467 understanding well in an activity that the elements of 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:50.856 and they're unexplainable is present. So it's not that what I do as that 00:13:50.889 --> 00:13:56.526 character has. But when you're dealing with a comprehensive problem like 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:04.559 the environment, that element has Mr and how can you get it in? It depends 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:10.846 on the substance of the minds that are in the back of it because you 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:14.807 cannot pinpointed, you cannot. 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:21.667 Mhm. Program it. We just have to somehow approach the problem in the city 00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:27.197 with the frame of mind which we accept, 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.547 reverential 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:35.276 vetoes, the residential, 00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:41.947 the condition that the mind has to begin. Which industries, in our present 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:49.236 situation, living in a city, a city like phoenix, we seem to have lost 00:14:49.269 --> 00:14:52.976 ourselves to the point where we really don't understand our pain and the 00:14:53.009 --> 00:14:57.817 suffering that we're going through a kind of numb to it. And so uh an idea 00:14:57.850 --> 00:15:02.986 like Carcassonne to is we can't see it clearly, it doesn't it doesn't 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:08.307 bring forth what it brings forth for you for men in the city, they're so 00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:13.427 involved, so involved in their own suffering for so long, that artist 00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:19.337 johnny isn't what it is to you, the suffering is self inflicted and the 00:15:19.370 --> 00:15:27.370 self inflicted by by the stubbornness of man to be practical 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:35.639 so little by little, we we answer to our problems or distress or yeah, see 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:46.126 uh yeah, frustration with what we call very practical solutions and we add 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:53.687 up this mountain of practical solutions which are utterly unreal, 00:15:53.720 --> 00:16:01.720 so that the structure of phoenix is an unreal uh response, two Very real 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:08.077 challenges, but no one seems to be seeing they're going totally in the 00:16:08.110 --> 00:16:11.886 wrong direction. They see well, coming up with more solutions to their 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.606 situation, the proof is in the pudding 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:20.667 you act like you expect man to come around more through coercion and 00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:27.736 reverence to coercion of reality. There's no way about not two ways about 00:16:27.769 --> 00:16:35.769 it? Reality. It's a very uh stern and demanding. 00:16:38.139 --> 00:16:44.187 Yeah. Reality. Do you think that eventually will come to to the solution 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.866 which you've reached? You outline a few alternatives. We have robot like 00:16:48.899 --> 00:16:54.827 lives? Well, that's that's to be seen as Yeah. If I had a solution, I 00:16:54.860 --> 00:17:01.516 would say yes, men will come around yet. I don't have a solution. I have a 00:17:01.549 --> 00:17:06.806 methodology. The methodology has to be implemented which means between 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:13.137 between the methodology which is some kind of a guideline and the 00:17:13.170 --> 00:17:21.170 application of it. There is quite a bit of a struggle since function. It 00:17:21.529 --> 00:17:29.529 comes after form. You can't be sure. Only only as I was saying uh the part 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:34.347 or whatever the problem is, which is transcendental, which means it 00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:39.286 doesn't have the answer into the causes because it's something the effect 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:45.187 transit ended because okay, I might not be understanding your answer, but 00:17:45.220 --> 00:17:50.296 I'll say what I was going to say. If function does come and perform in the 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:56.336 case that you say, then you can be sure that man will become a more 00:17:56.369 --> 00:18:02.647 spiritual creature, more in tuned to the universe after he moves into on 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:10.680 the second. That's right. Just because it's there are no real guidelines 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:17.627 or rationalization about this. Uh 00:18:17.660 --> 00:18:23.907 You I would say this mystery, We don't know if we are succeeding or not. 00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:28.907 So most of the time we do not succeed, but that's that's part of the 00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:34.907 toughness of life. Is there any way you can you can make more certain 00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:40.756 things will succeed? Yeah, you can make a more servants certain by trying 00:18:40.789 --> 00:18:46.607 to be true to what you feel the important things are and 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:52.907 try to preach a little bit also to live a 00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:57.556 we go through a lot of loneliness in the city. The city seems to at least 00:18:57.589 --> 00:19:03.476 in my case, it seems to numbing to individual people. So many pastors in 00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:08.546 my life in one single day and so many seem to want something of me and I 00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:12.387 do the same, I want something of them that I've become very numb and 00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:17.957 distance to them and that contributes to myself image of myself, which 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:22.197 also contributes to my loneliness and everything I always looked on. That 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:26.746 is, it's the product of being in any place where there was a large number 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.506 of people and I still anarchists are, they will be a place where there are 00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:35.947 a large number of people in a miniaturization, more concentrated than they 00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:42.086 are now in phoenix and I, and that leads me to apartment. I think it might 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:48.306 help you into this camp laundry if you try to understand what life seems 00:19:48.339 --> 00:19:52.657 to be about and you see immediate one thing you see immediately here, the 00:19:52.690 --> 00:19:56.006 life is cooperation 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:04.039 getting together, um, interaction working out a problem that seemed to be 00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:08.137 insurmountable and so on. And this is not, this is not something that has 00:20:08.170 --> 00:20:14.306 been going on only in the last few generations has been going on for about 00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:20.927 3000 millions of years. So it's a substantial teaching that we have. If 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:26.427 you if you take away this aspect which is a corporation interaction, you 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:33.207 destroy life, it's it's automatic. So if there is something which is very 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:38.447 clear is the matter in order to be sensitized to become sir matter or 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:45.296 spirit or mental stuff or conscience or compassion, anything like that has 00:20:45.329 --> 00:20:53.329 to follow that path. Mhm. Have you intellectualized how a change will come 00:20:53.329 --> 00:20:57.157 about in our Cassani or is that again part of the transcendental area that 00:20:57.190 --> 00:21:02.246 can be verbalized how well you can see immediately the functional aspects 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:10.279 , you can see that for the same size of population for the same thing that 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:17.586 this population can do and has available Arcosanti is going to be a far 00:21:17.619 --> 00:21:22.607 smaller bureaucratic machine, far smaller garbage collection machine, a 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:30.640 far smaller postal delivery machine, a far smaller uh huh market place 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:36.256 machine and so on. So that means that is going to be able to do much more 00:21:36.289 --> 00:21:39.006 with much less 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:45.576 what in the area of environmental knowledge or information as well as what 00:21:45.609 --> 00:21:50.986 you described as accumulated to things that we've come up with a history 00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:57.217 of man, things like books and our and other things also included is the 00:21:57.250 --> 00:22:04.597 rest of the universe correct nature will we have, how will we have better 00:22:04.630 --> 00:22:10.496 in tune with that part. Environmental information. Once in orchestra by 00:22:10.529 --> 00:22:15.306 being true to the trust of life which is to become more knowledgeable, 00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:17.736 understand 00:22:17.769 --> 00:22:25.286 and hopefully wise to eat so that we can work with it. It will be more 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:31.667 than more of a state of mind than a no, no, no, no. It deals very much 00:22:31.700 --> 00:22:38.046 with the physical aspects of the whole system because we are not by far we 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.996 are not pure spirits. So our spirit is conditioned to all our physical 00:22:44.029 --> 00:22:49.407 being. So the psychosomatic man has to be totally considered 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:55.417 And uh but to be true to nature as we call it is to be true to something 00:22:55.450 --> 00:23:00.226 which usually we don't we don't really mean when we say nature when 00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:06.667 speaking of Pakistan and that transcendental changes the spiritual ization. 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:13.306 We will go hopefully you know yet always keep that in mind. That's right. 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:18.726 You talk about pain and loneliness and the loss of it down to what you 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:24.887 describe as residual suffering which you say is compassion is born of that 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:28.107 as well as as joy. 00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:32.407 I would I would say that 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:37.056 the most important resultant is creation which I call in the state of 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:42.427 genesis. Yeah. Then you'll have to define creation as differentiated from 00:23:42.460 --> 00:23:48.407 compassionate joy. Mm hmm. Um 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:56.440 compassion comes comes somehow from the from the perception. Mhm That 00:23:58.910 --> 00:24:05.107 oh what do we call life for reality is something as I was saying before. 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:13.140 Very demanding and in this demanding process. Lots of suffering is 00:24:13.829 --> 00:24:19.937 involved. Joy might be called. Somehow the other facet though, life is a 00:24:19.970 --> 00:24:25.006 very demanding thing just because it is so demanding is able to exhilarate 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:32.427 mhm. People or beings in some instances and those those are very often 00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:35.947 most of the time a very short instances. So joy, it's a burst of 00:24:35.980 --> 00:24:43.980 liveliness and go back to something give nous of feeling and conception uh 00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:50.566 hysteric process is somehow the making use of those elements to create 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:57.667 something. So the passion enjoy. Yeah. Which are part of the anguish as 00:24:57.700 --> 00:25:02.786 far as a valid aesthetic process. The only valid one could be Is the one 00:25:02.819 --> 00:25:07.187 born of compassion. Yeah. The difference I think between the beauty that 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:11.576 we call the natural beauty and the beauty that man is able to create now 00:25:11.609 --> 00:25:16.377 and then is that this second one is a compassionate beauty is the 00:25:16.410 --> 00:25:23.806 equivalent in human terms of the beauty of nature coming before Amanda. 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:31.717 Yeah. As it stands now in our situation in the city, what do you see art 00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:38.647 as born of compassion? No, it's just an extravagant or maybe a result of 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:46.680 fear or frustration or uh and we go to college boredom. So there's very 00:25:48.089 --> 00:25:55.927 little I think or what I call aesthetic happening again in this age. This 00:25:55.960 --> 00:26:02.617 time of ours. We are very much inclined even when we think we do, we work 00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:09.246 around aesthetics inclining, producing tools for something that we don't 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:12.836 know what's going to be at. So we are really they're the Instrumental 00:26:12.869 --> 00:26:18.617 ization at this point of the next step. Unfortunately we we don't know 00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:22.296 what the next step is. We don't even care about it. So in that sense we 00:26:22.329 --> 00:26:29.746 become instruments ourselves because we we lack the impetus or the trust 00:26:29.779 --> 00:26:36.457 of the belief. I hope that something better can come along. R casada is 00:26:36.490 --> 00:26:42.986 your creation. Is the framework ever since. From what I understand, it's a 00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:47.447 combination of spontaneity and planning. The framework is planning in your 00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:52.107 creation. I make a distinction that I would call it an invention. 00:26:52.140 --> 00:26:55.826 Hopefully it will be something more than that. But that's that's again 00:26:55.859 --> 00:27:00.617 it's the long neck. The risk is not granted. Can we say that that 00:27:00.650 --> 00:27:04.607 invention is the product of compassion? 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:10.006 Hopefully. Yeah. Right. But I make a distinction between compassionate 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:12.536 pity or 00:27:12.569 --> 00:27:15.506 poisonous. 00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:20.967 Mhm. Compassion is not necessarily the act of the pious person might be 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:24.707 something quite different 00:27:24.740 --> 00:27:29.407 in a way it's on a skill 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:37.440 which hopefully tries to encompass more elements than what the act of pity 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:47.026 of pious nous. My intel mm hmm. Your life? The function come after the 00:27:47.059 --> 00:27:55.059 form. Did you? In a Mhm. In many instances, yes. How did you conceive? 00:27:56.210 --> 00:28:02.806 Well, even in santa, you had some certain 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:07.556 directions which were given to me by the methodology was safe. Good said 00:28:07.589 --> 00:28:14.697 his quality at the same time by nature because of my nature. I don't know 00:28:14.730 --> 00:28:18.806 what he 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:23.907 I came up with my cold forms, which are not totally and absolutely 00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:27.107 justifiable by that methodology. 00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:31.447 So, I might come out with something very extravagant. If I feel I might 00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:36.736 come up with something pretty good. If I don't feel you talk about the 00:28:36.769 --> 00:28:42.417 last period since the Industrial Revolution, up to this time being, period 00:28:42.450 --> 00:28:46.707 of preparation for what is to come, 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:53.026 then you also say that that mhm. This vision of our casada and this vision 00:28:53.059 --> 00:28:59.887 of man without sadness and only with the residual suffering is something 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:04.407 that will come after generations. 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:10.177 I'm not sure I got Okay, I'm just trying to say that vision of man as a as 00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:15.046 a joyful, compassionate deal with everything, losing all this suffering, 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:20.556 but that residual suffering will come after generation. Yeah, there are 00:29:20.589 --> 00:29:28.236 there are kinds of sufferings that are not, in a way are superfluous. We 00:29:28.269 --> 00:29:36.269 torment ourselves. Yeah. Two to a length which is not necessary at the 00:29:37.789 --> 00:29:42.556 same time. One of the one of the drawbacks of this civilization is the 00:29:42.589 --> 00:29:48.957 pursuit of happiness. Okay, if we pursue pursue happiness, definitely know 00:29:48.990 --> 00:29:54.306 you're never going to get anywhere. We are not going to be joyful because 00:29:54.339 --> 00:29:58.907 the pursuit of happiness is like a grain 00:29:58.940 --> 00:30:03.207 effort, I'm going to be happy, I'm going to be happy. Well, that doesn't 00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:08.486 make sense. You have to try to be worthy and if you're worthy, you'll get 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:16.066 some moment of joy. They're going to be drowned almost in order what I 00:30:16.099 --> 00:30:22.667 might call the anguish, which is you cannot get rid of because it's part 00:30:22.700 --> 00:30:30.127 of the the nature of life. Life is a very fragile, very isolated, very 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:38.160 tenuous phenomenon at this point, it's somehow comforting to know, I guess 00:30:38.619 --> 00:30:44.576 it rises out of any compassion. I feel that someday the human race will be 00:30:44.609 --> 00:30:49.026 free of all the things that seems to put itself through now. But but in my 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:54.036 lifetime it's not going to be, I feel that I need to be, but I'm still 00:30:54.069 --> 00:31:00.256 surrounded like by ideas that built cities like phoenix, by automobiles, 00:31:00.289 --> 00:31:06.707 by by crummy food, by ownership, by all those ideas as well. 00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:10.897 I could say I got news for you, but I don't know, I don't want to mean 00:31:10.930 --> 00:31:16.046 that I know better, but it's not your generation are going together, we're 00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:21.286 not going to get it for possibly thousands of millions of generations have 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:25.996 , we must put ourselves in the perspective of Augusta. I just have to 00:31:26.029 --> 00:31:29.197 believe that I can do it in my own lifetime. And any man, you know, I 00:31:29.230 --> 00:31:33.086 think you have to believe that what your behavior and what you're going to 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.947 do all of your life is going to be a little speck, a little break building 00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:43.467 this creature which I call the image of God. So if you don't, if you 00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:47.806 cannot believe that, and if you cannot take your anguish, try to make use 00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:51.917 in those terms, then you're going to be frustrated no matter what's going 00:31:51.950 --> 00:31:55.786 to happen, you're going to feel that you're wasting wasting your life, but 00:31:55.819 --> 00:32:00.667 you're not wasting your life your life. You can your life is an infinite 00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:06.336 national parcel of something much bigger, much greater than and much more 00:32:06.369 --> 00:32:12.107 powerful. But this thing is in the making, it's not there for the taking 00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:16.877 has not been given to us in the past doesn't exist that outside of 00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:24.667 ourselves. It's us making us from the virus up to 00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:30.407 come on smack. So I 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:34.806 I admitted to being confused. But 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:42.147 when you talk about the transition from mattered to spirit, it's an idea 00:32:42.180 --> 00:32:47.806 that I've heard so much about lately are in the past few years, you know, 00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:51.826 just because I've directed myself in that area that that I'm familiar with 00:32:51.859 --> 00:32:58.607 it, but not really a new comprehension of 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:06.586 maybe maybe you should try to to see spirit not as a you know, as a 00:33:06.619 --> 00:33:14.437 perfect, the utterly beautiful, utterly everything. But consider the 00:33:14.470 --> 00:33:18.607 origin of the spirit what spirit might have been at the beginning? 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:26.006 Tennessee at the beginning, Spirit was they a kind of very vague and very 00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:33.236 dumb and dull perception what things were around around you. And I mean by 00:33:33.269 --> 00:33:38.796 this not you were conceived so the conception of life itself at the 00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:46.707 beginning of life as soon as matter or mass energy, for some reason, 00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:52.457 promote away from the deterministic or the reduction mystic, the structure 00:33:52.490 --> 00:33:59.357 of the universe. Spirit was born. So if you can conceive that it is very 00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:04.647 dim consciousness. The first manifestation of spirit then maybe. And then 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:11.847 you try to follow it almost cinematically to the evolution of life. Then 00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:17.756 the fact that now spirit is still are very in a sense, very limited and 00:34:17.789 --> 00:34:21.006 dull and unwise 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:25.206 and 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:27.706 yeah, 00:34:27.739 --> 00:34:35.739 full of holes and unexplainable thing. I think you can accept possibly 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.907 your condition and the condition of 00:34:39.940 --> 00:34:46.206 any other person. A mission of any animal condition of any plant. And so 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:54.239 but if we say spirit is everything and has always been there and now and 00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:58.586 we are just trying to go back to that perfection. Then I think we are in 00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:00.807 for 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:05.606 for total distributions for 00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:13.639 for a breakdown all rooms. Yeah. I'd like to talk about our history on a 00:35:14.090 --> 00:35:19.657 practical basis. Just for a little while you talk about uh the idea of 00:35:19.690 --> 00:35:26.637 Arcosanti bringing about a an entire political and economic change. How 00:35:26.670 --> 00:35:31.106 can one Stark Asana is completed and and functioning? How can it exist in 00:35:31.139 --> 00:35:37.467 a in a nation where we're still adhering to the old ideas of the hope is 00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:42.827 not that would exist in a steady state environment. The hope is that it 00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:49.717 would be a trigger or the match that lies with a fire. Mm hmm. It doesn't 00:35:49.750 --> 00:35:56.546 do that. It might be just turning claim of heritage. Mm hmm. People are 00:35:56.579 --> 00:36:03.046 privileged. People are lost. People that are trying to survive and make it 00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:07.296 until they have to die 00:36:07.329 --> 00:36:12.296 once people. So I see it as a dynamic 00:36:12.329 --> 00:36:18.296 point. Which might help to change. Not just 00:36:18.329 --> 00:36:26.329 the rise in that point with the life. Oh, labor circles, once people are 00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:33.097 in are cast on a the setup as far as labor goals will be different from 00:36:33.130 --> 00:36:37.316 what we find it now. Is it morning? Well, that would be very much in the 00:36:37.349 --> 00:36:43.376 hands of the people. I'm not, I don't legislate their job trying to the 00:36:43.409 --> 00:36:47.756 final environment. Their jobs are described in the book. It's not so nice 00:36:47.789 --> 00:36:53.097 job. I think you put it. Oh well, yeah, but I think that I was trying to 00:36:53.130 --> 00:36:56.816 suggest very strongly that we should not leave an illusion that we are 00:36:56.849 --> 00:37:02.577 going to get rid of old oils and all sorts of routines and so on. In fact 00:37:02.610 --> 00:37:08.606 , I said that routine years can be made, made it to grace so that uh we 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:13.767 can enjoy even the humblest kind of activities that were engaged in. One 00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:18.537 of the not so nice jobs you mentioned was police work. And that implies 00:37:18.570 --> 00:37:22.816 more than oil and routine. A policeman has to have something. There's 00:37:22.849 --> 00:37:28.597 another person involved in that job criminal or something. Yeah. Well 00:37:28.630 --> 00:37:35.497 there is, I think there are aspects of police work which are not enjoyable 00:37:35.530 --> 00:37:38.927 when you have to resort to violence. For instance. I don't think that's 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:41.597 enjoyable. 00:37:41.630 --> 00:37:48.206 So if you can have a society that might do with less violence and 00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:56.097 including mental violence, then the police work might be transformed into 00:37:56.130 --> 00:38:04.130 Mhm. Into a doctor who knows what no single knows what politically, how 00:38:04.539 --> 00:38:10.247 will things be administered in Arkansas. There again, uh you have to ask 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.066 the people are going to be there. We are beginning now to have those 00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:17.807 things coming up. It's something you don't want to share your thoughts. 00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:23.717 You must have had some thoughts. Well, it's first of all, I'm not I'm not 00:38:23.750 --> 00:38:30.456 that knowledgeable about politics, but politics is an instrument. So, if 00:38:30.489 --> 00:38:37.177 we establish Mhm. Uh those things are priority, then evidently we think 00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:42.197 that that man has to be fundamentally a political animal or fundamentally 00:38:42.230 --> 00:38:48.236 an economic animal. That's not true. Man is fundamentally a religious or 00:38:48.269 --> 00:38:52.316 creative animal. By saying, you're not knowledgeable in politics. You're 00:38:52.349 --> 00:38:57.396 implying that people who know about politics will then decide what goes on 00:38:57.429 --> 00:39:00.997 in our Cassani and people who know about politics out here and don't know 00:39:01.030 --> 00:39:06.686 about. Well, it's about that's part that's part of being able to integrate 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.447 the remote information with the environmental information. And if you can 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:17.827 define an environment which is strong enough to really engage people in 00:39:17.860 --> 00:39:22.256 that kind of information, understanding than possibly the political mind. 00:39:22.289 --> 00:39:29.477 My gear itself to a larger chunk of reality, which is what it was not 00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:34.137 what's happening now. The political animal is a very abstract the best 00:39:34.170 --> 00:39:41.646 example is what we did with Vietnam. If there is a clear cut indication of 00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:48.416 what the synthetic mind very bright mind can come up as far as distortion 00:39:48.449 --> 00:39:56.057 of reality is to see what McNamara Yeah. Rostov and the Bundys were able 00:39:56.090 --> 00:40:02.776 to call a cop in asia fantastic 00:40:02.809 --> 00:40:06.876 twist 00:40:06.909 --> 00:40:12.197 in every day. They should have, they should have being asked to do some 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:18.137 physical work. But like the chinese do every six months or so I'm involved 00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:22.017 with people that do that kind of work for their life, then maybe they 00:40:22.050 --> 00:40:28.807 would begin to understand what yet this person is. Is there anything going 00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:32.117 on in the world now that you would see is something that can be 00:40:32.150 --> 00:40:37.126 incorporated or presenting on that basis? Political or economic? Well, I 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:41.847 wish I knew more about china know so little what's happening there. I wish 00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:48.396 I knew more about Israel, that's something good and what happens in this 00:40:48.429 --> 00:40:54.296 country in many communities. So I'm not, I would never dream of saying 00:40:54.329 --> 00:41:01.356 that everything that is around now, he's bad or irrelevant. Yeah, I would 00:41:01.389 --> 00:41:05.307 say that what we have is very precious. We just have to try to be more 00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:11.836 discriminative. So I'm not for destroying or or for for a sterile created 00:41:11.869 --> 00:41:17.236 . I think I have some right to criticize because I think I can often 00:41:17.269 --> 00:41:22.876 alternatives. Is there any historical precedents for for something like 00:41:22.909 --> 00:41:28.836 Carcassonne and and more than that is in looking back over the path, man 00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:33.787 is taken, you know, in recorded history. Do you see that he's gone the 00:41:33.820 --> 00:41:39.396 wrong way completely. And that's what's led him to think when the 00:41:39.429 --> 00:41:46.086 technological thing exploded because of the ability we had to latch on of 00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:52.486 energy and introduce instruments. Could use energy by the by the boat we 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:57.796 went a while. Yes, that was a dangerous synthetic knowledge. That's right. 00:41:57.829 --> 00:42:02.066 And the exhilaration of power that comes from having power available. So 00:42:02.099 --> 00:42:08.557 the intelligence of man works for for the spirit and works also against 00:42:08.590 --> 00:42:12.997 the spirit. That's why we have to be very careful when we get into using 00:42:13.030 --> 00:42:18.467 technology. 00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:23.367 Mhm. 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:28.267 Mhm. 00:42:28.300 --> 00:42:36.300 Yeah. Mhm. 00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:31.699 No, 00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:45.889 mm. 00:44:56.079 --> 00:45:04.079 When the trolley is clean reach, a 00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:03.637 feeling of I was some crazy guy in the desert digging holes. Now I'm a 00:46:03.670 --> 00:46:11.126 crazy guy with some crazy theories but it was becoming accepted so that 00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:17.557 people start to read about recent. Once we get something going on in in 00:46:17.590 --> 00:46:22.816 terms of bricks or mortar or concrete that will come and look and then at 00:46:22.849 --> 00:46:28.057 that point someone might decide that there's something very positive there. 00:46:28.090 --> 00:46:33.767 We are finding out that affluence. He's not such a blessing and we're 00:46:33.800 --> 00:46:38.086 finding out that it's not such a blessing because afghans tends to to 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:42.927 desensitize more than what we were expecting. So instead of making people 00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:48.836 more sensitive to environment, to other people, to the institutions that 00:46:48.869 --> 00:46:54.376 we have invented, we see that people tends to be to withdraw or just to 00:46:54.409 --> 00:47:00.736 enjoy what we call the comfort of a certain environment and ignore things 00:47:00.769 --> 00:47:08.769 which are for a very, very important, such as such as the ability to to 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:16.960 seek new things to not be satisfied, or what there is the ability to enjoy 00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:24.146 things of a more subtle quality, which means in general that we tend to 00:47:24.179 --> 00:47:30.467 because to start or to reverse the process of life which is going from 00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:38.500 matter into spirit. 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:49.679 Yeah.