WEBVTT

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Yeah,

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the

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next two hours tonight we're going to
hear from some people who are doing

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some extraordinary work in the desert
plateaus of Arizona. Yeah, going to

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be bringing you parts of an interview
that we conducted about two weeks

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ago with paolo Soleri. Yeah. Who was
the world's first archaeologist.

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Archaeology is a word that balance salary invented.

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It's a contraction of architecture and
ecology

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and hilarious,

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probably the first major architecture
figure of this century to have

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really Absorb the ecological
perspective and the amazing thing is that he

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did it about 30 years ago. Mm

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Where else are going to be? Bring you
an interview with one of his

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students,

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young man by the name of Jack
Blackwell who has a lot of very amazing

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things to say.

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Solari has

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over the course of the years of his
labors. Yeah, mm transformed himself

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from being a simple designer to a
creator of enormous and revolutionary

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schemes for new types of cities

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for years. He was

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rather misunderstood and thought to be
very far out and revolutionary. And

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it's only lately that the basic
conservatism of his approach has come to

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be understood conservative in the
sense that salary who was born in Italy

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yeah, educated in europe and the
United States has inherited the mhm best

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of the classical european traditions
of urbanism and the intellectual life.

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Mhm mhm. When he came to the United
States, he became a student of frank

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Lloyd wright

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and studied with right at his winter
desert. Okay, retreat. Mhm. Outside

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of phoenix Arizona

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At the time. This was in the 40s.

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Yeah. Taliesin West was very isolated
on the outskirts of phoenix and

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salary bought some land nearby

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in the wide open spaces of the
expanding perimeters of the phoenix suburbs

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and with his wife, Cali, he created
the co Santee foundation

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because santa is,

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is an italian word meaning before
things or some people translated against

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things.

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And the work of the cassata Foundation
has grown and proliferated

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tremendously over the years. Solari
has published, has worked widely in

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series of fantastic drawings and
notebooks and perhaps this is the wrong

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medium to sure that kind of

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information with you. But at the same
time salary has turned his

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considerable intellect onto trying to
understand the needs of the city and

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development of

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appropriate habitats for human beings
to

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grow in and to preserve the best
values of civilization. The things that

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he responds to.

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Yeah, there is a, a factor of a great
power within the universe which is

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not space nor time nor mass energy,
its complexity,

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which resolves itself into
consciousness and self consciousness and

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intelligence and so on. Yeah. And this
factor is for a moment, as far as

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we know, it might be isolated in few
spots or maybe a few billions of

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spots, who knows, but still quite
isolated. There's a phenomenon which are

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isolated from each other, but they're
phenomenon that eventually, if they

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develop enough power will call us
into, into one event

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and it's uh complexity as its own form
of infinity or immensity or or for

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power, anyone beginning now to see
what that power might be or could be

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through our action and this solar
system since it's a power which is still

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used by a very uh primitive or a very
young phenomenon, it's used is

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misused and it's made into actions
which are very often detrimental to the

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whole balance. But it is a power, the
conscience of of the human family

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seems to be one of the new factor
within the universe that my eventually

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transformed this universe totally.

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And I I take that as a it was a hint
or as a guideline and I introduced

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the idea of the urban effect as the
device as the procedure by which this

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, this new

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power in the universe might be able to
because the transcendence of matter

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into spirit.

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Mhm, Mhm, Mhm Uh huh.

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Yeah, yeah,

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yeah. Mhm.

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Mhm. All right. Mhm.

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Yeah,

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wow. Yeah, yeah,

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mm hmm.

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Yeah.

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Mhm

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Right.

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One of the ways that salary has
supported his activities over the year has

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been by teaching,

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literally thousands of students have
pass through the casa de Foundation

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in Scottsdale and now through
Arcosanti, the new city town actually, the

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first arc Ology Solaris demonstration
project of his ideas for the

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integrated town design. Mhm.

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Many of the students who have come to
live and work at the foundation have

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wanted to make a hero out of celery
and uh when will not be. And I spoke

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with him, we asked him about that

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color. The I've seen the relationship
that you have to your students

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described by the word master ship and
Jack has just essentially alluded to

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the same thing that everyone considers
you to be a

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an evolved being who has been able to
uh Mhm. I can't get past your sense

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of humor and I think

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that twinkle coming around his
knuckles, I think

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you understand what I'm trying to say
that yes, the people have gathered

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around you in order to look at what
you've done with your life. They're

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willing to

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confer upon you some authority in the
sense of wanting to learn from you

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and how do you participate in that
process with them? Well, I believe in

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leadership, but with a great
reservation, which is that we should

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understand that no matter how good the
leader is, he's still fumbling and

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seeking and probing and falling,

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falling, fighting on these days on
earth face and so on. So we should be

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very clear about that. Which brings me
to the, not to a parallel, but a

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cautionary.

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Mhm

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saying uh

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advice watch out about the guru and
the instant wisdom and paradise

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tomorrow and all those things. So we
are trying at least personally, I'm

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trying to be very clear and maybe I'm
not very clear about the fact that

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we we wish not so much to become a
privileged or perfect or utopian group.

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We would like to be very much normal
in and almost anyway, but possibly

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with some understanding of what
normality could be.

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So I have a lot of rather high I have
a long list of vision of normality,

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right? Yeah. But in many ways I feel
that what I'm telling to me is

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normality as against something very
abnormal which is happening now and

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this abnormality is expressed quite
well too well by many of the things

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that we as a technological as a
technological beings are doing and

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developing. So I see that what I'm
trying to bring back really is a sense

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of nor mighty, which has been lost. So
I sometimes I make the power

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between a very clear that using this
is doing the same old kind of

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rectangular brick as someone else that
wants to be original. So it's going

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to make a spherical breaks and then
tries to build with spherical breaks

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and I would say it well, the Los
Angelenos as an idea and the ones that

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are trying to use round breaks, I stay
with square bricks because I feel

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that I'm trying to make just a little
tiny step within the evolutionary

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process. As I said,

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well, you have been described as a
spokesman for some fairly traditional

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in the best sense ideas or some
conservative ways of looking at human

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culture, but in the sense that
associating with you essentially transforms

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whoever is doing that personally, I
don't know because I I don't feel at

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all charismatic or anything like that.
I have a vague notion that I'm not

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cut for that kind of a situation. In
fact, I don't I resent the idea of

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giving orders or telling people what
to do, but at the same time I know

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that I am in a position where I
somehow have to do something like that at

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least time and then

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but then I'm also a very private
person, so I'm not capable of great

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social interaction. I think that's
perfect unity. Well, your community has

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been described as a recreation and
modern terms of the renaissance atelier

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and actually,

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wasn't it your joining the atelier of
frank Lloyd wright that brought you

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to the desert in the first place.
Yeah, I that was a good lesson for me.

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It wasn't a lesson as an experience
and I think I'm very glad to have had

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it because I think it was a very
positive experience.

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And when I look back at it, I I see
that my response were probably quite

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different from the response of young
people now to what you might call the

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master.

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And perhaps that's because I was
slower in my thinking or I was less

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uh

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inpatient or whatever, but I never
occurred to me to discuss what's

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happening, what was happening to us
in, which might not be very good. But

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that was my reaction. I was doing
things that I found the environment very

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interesting and exciting and so I was
going about doing what was told to

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do. But those were the 40s and the
50s, they were not the 60s or the 70s.

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Now I don't know what the balance is.
I think both ways have some

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something to offer.

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He it is an element of arrogance in a
contemporary scene which I don't

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know if it's very good at the same
time. There is an element of inquiry

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and an observation and questioning,
which is very good. So I don't know

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what the balance is. You say you feel
an arrogance now in the contemporary

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, in the, in the young people, which
is probably has been caused by the by

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teachers and professors telling the
young people that, you know, look how

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beautiful you are, Look how perfect
you are. Know what you can do if you

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just freed from the coercion of
society and so on. Which I think it's

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fundamentally alive because beauty and
resourcefulness and so on are very

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relative things. And hopefully growing
up means to become and if they

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understood what was being said to
them, they would be humble. Yeah,

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willing to learn. Yeah. I think the
humility should be ingrained into the

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, into the learning process and that
goes for naturally for the master as

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much as it goes for the pupil. So what
I'd like to see is a little more

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balanced situation, maybe we're a
little more humility might be

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interesting to see the pupils and the
other things like keep grabbing at.

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It's the element of self pity. Self
pity. Yes. Which is, um, yes. But

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what about me? You know, when I get
out of it and oh, this hurts or this

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is demanding too much or I make no,
all those, all those things. And

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there's always a grain of truth in
those complaints. But then again, youth

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should be the time and the place and
in the circumstances where you can,

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you know, generosity and it's such a
great gift. I have the energy of

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youth. Yeah. The energy of use and
feel less sorry about yourself. Uh, and

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I think again, that's part a
consequence of the affluent syndrome. And

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then this explosion in the 60 of what
I feel it was only responsible

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reaction, not of the students, not the
young people, but the people

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responsible for them. This big
faculties, professors, teachers, and so on.

00:19:14.740 --> 00:19:22.740
 No. Yeah.

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Okay, mm hmm. All right. The first
time you look at a picture of one of

00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:51.207
palace hilarious, extraordinary city
designs. You're struck with the

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enormity of it and the complexity of
it. He's a virtuoso designer. In fact

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, he first came to the attention of
the design community in this country

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for his designs of ceramics and
bridges and sculptural projects and was

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acknowledged as a master of all those
forms. And he's incorporated that

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into his, um, architectural and urban
designs.

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And he's been creating on paper, at
least some projects for some very

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enormous buildings, some of them even
a mile or more across

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all of this generally gives rise to
certain kinds of chronic criticisms.

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This will be in here dehumanized and
hill or a mega structure and there

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is a certain tendency and contemporary
real estate development too

00:20:56.339 --> 00:21:01.786
put together a really big package
something that will have something for

00:21:01.819 --> 00:21:05.506
everybody in it. But as I think you'll
hear in this next section,

00:21:05.539 --> 00:21:11.306
Scolari's ideas are a little bit
different. Yeah.

00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:18.437
Mhm. Yeah. The thing which
distinguishes an archaeology from a mere mega

00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:24.546
structure or a huge building is the
development of the concepts that

00:21:24.579 --> 00:21:30.536
underlie it as a form of human
organization. Would that be fair? Yes, the

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degree of complexity which is assumed
to be able to develop their gives

00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:42.506
the degree of liveliness and fitness
and coherence with the environment

00:21:42.539 --> 00:21:47.207
and with other factors.

00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:53.367
And with as soon as you bring in the
complexity parameter, you cannot

00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:58.586
avoid the physical parameter, which
which is the support of the structure

00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:02.667
of the grid, which makes the
complexity. That's why the idea of

00:22:02.700 --> 00:22:05.107
militarization

00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:10.526
Because we could imagine that there is
something as as complex that does

00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.967
the brain, which is uh 50 times as
large of the brain. But we can only

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.597
conceive of that, we cannot probably
demonstrate the feasibility of this

00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:24.226
thing because as soon as the physical
dimension changes, you lose the

00:22:24.259 --> 00:22:29.637
swiftness, you lose the immediacy, you
lose the pertinence and

00:22:29.670 --> 00:22:32.506
responsiveness

00:22:32.539 --> 00:22:39.377
because for very simple reasons of
action and response and so on. If it

00:22:39.410 --> 00:22:44.286
takes that much time to for a message
to go from here to there in that

00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:48.306
process something is going to change
so that when the response comes in,

00:22:48.339 --> 00:22:53.046
response is for the past is not for
the present. So there was little

00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:59.056
parameter, it sounds like a
materialistic element, but it's utterly tied

00:22:59.089 --> 00:23:05.647
with the notion of consciousness of
responsiveness, of immediacy and of

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.107
liveliness.

00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:12.957
Do you see specialization within each
of these cells? And I see arcosanti

00:23:12.990 --> 00:23:20.990
as a cell uh a series of units of
perhaps scattered across the landscape

00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:27.847
with lots of what's called green
space, but in Arizona it's not

00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:34.006
necessarily green of green belt of

00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.957
there will have to be communication
between those units as well. No

00:23:38.990 --> 00:23:42.367
community can be totally self
sufficient in this day and age. There's

00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.467
always something that's dependent upon
someone else to be doing. And there

00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:50.667
will be a degree of specialization
than in each area. Say that in

00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:56.907
manufacturer I think so there was your
cloning, you know things and as we

00:23:56.940 --> 00:24:00.967
can as we are repelled to an idea of
cloning in creatures organisms,

00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:06.796
living systems. I think we should
repel the idea of cloning anything. I

00:24:06.829 --> 00:24:12.836
mean the cloning is really the
condition of the origin. There is a

00:24:12.869 --> 00:24:15.107
particle

00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:20.236
there are a few particles which are
self identical, there. Myriads of

00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:23.917
party which are self identical. And
you start from there. So the more you

00:24:23.950 --> 00:24:28.667
move away from that condition, the
moria too. In many ways that define the

00:24:28.700 --> 00:24:34.117
originality. It's certainly a very
radical idea for american consciousness

00:24:34.150 --> 00:24:39.177
to try and absorb since a virtually
our whole psychological sense of

00:24:39.210 --> 00:24:44.546
security as we move across the
landscape is developed by finding the same

00:24:44.579 --> 00:24:46.996
thing everywhere. And this has been
pointed out over and over again that

00:24:47.029 --> 00:24:52.377
the crummy hamburger that you eat in
phoenix is going to be identical to

00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:59.586
the one and find your feeling over
equal nausea and the gas stations and

00:24:59.619 --> 00:25:03.197
all these other repetitive elements of
the american landscape are an

00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:08.847
attempt to give people a sense of
location. Now you're saying that you're

00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:14.526
encouraging originality within the
structures that you're creating. Yes,

00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:18.276
yeah, not so much functional
originality, but especially original. You

00:25:18.309 --> 00:25:25.697
know what the means might have a
repetitive character to them. But the end

00:25:25.730 --> 00:25:31.907
is too, it's not too come out with the
originality

00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:35.707
and his eyes like saying, well the
brakes are always the same, but you can

00:25:35.740 --> 00:25:42.677
build a mansion, a humble house,
castle and you can build a nice humble

00:25:42.710 --> 00:25:49.187
house or ugly open house and so on. So
I'm not against the repetitiveness

00:25:49.220 --> 00:25:54.207
or or discipline or

00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:00.207
order or hierarchy, but I would be
careful in believing that since this

00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:06.387
works nicely here, let's make a clone
somebody else, someone else. All

00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:12.786
right, So this is another kind of
appropriate response to condition which

00:26:12.819 --> 00:26:16.607
you take into your design

00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.776
priorities. When you approach
something, there's an element which is an

00:26:20.809 --> 00:26:23.607
element of

00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:31.516
presence. We we always say that we are
we are building for a client for a

00:26:31.549 --> 00:26:36.847
group of individuals or a society. The
fact is that we're building for

00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:41.717
something which is not there as yet.
If if I'm going to build a house for

00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:46.336
a client in the house is going to take
two years, we built hopefully the

00:26:46.369 --> 00:26:51.586
original client is not what's going to
be the final client. So we have to

00:26:51.619 --> 00:26:54.867
be very careful and that person will
have transformed himself in the

00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:59.036
meanwhile. Yeah. And part of the
transformation might have been the

00:26:59.069 --> 00:27:01.167
actually

00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.016
in the house. But our side of this
this factory, the fact is that this

00:27:06.049 --> 00:27:12.607
person has grown into something else.
So there is an anticipation

00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:17.907
parameter in the process which we tend
to ignore. And we say, well,

00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:21.586
everything is given. We're going to
get together in this room and we're

00:27:21.619 --> 00:27:24.917
going to say that we need this in
this, in this, in this. And so we're

00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:30.066
going to be able calling to what our
needs are. Well, if we take others as

00:27:30.099 --> 00:27:34.357
strictly the guidelines, then
eventually we're not doing anything that is

00:27:34.390 --> 00:27:38.367
future oriented. We're doing something
which is passed orient. So we have

00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:44.607
to let you have to always inject this
element of mystery on the ability

00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:52.640
and of suffering somehow, which is
part of making the future.

00:27:53.539 --> 00:27:59.197
So you have no fixed vision of what
the way things should be. But it's an

00:27:59.230 --> 00:28:07.230
art

00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:22.607
suffering somehow, which is part of
making the future.

00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:28.147
So you have no fixed vision of what
the way things should be. But it's an

00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:33.776
ongoing vision that itself is
transformed as it progresses. Yeah, you

00:28:33.809 --> 00:28:38.897
think that you can see modalities by
which the future is becoming the

00:28:38.930 --> 00:28:44.197
present and the modalities are very
much suggested by history and more by

00:28:44.230 --> 00:28:49.937
evolution as a more comprehensive
process. So you're trying to have some

00:28:49.970 --> 00:28:54.086
faith and to keep faith to those
majorities at the same time, you have to

00:28:54.119 --> 00:29:01.707
be very careful in in projection,
which are to define and to final and if

00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:08.707
you look at any kind of we call it
science fiction's things. The one thing

00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:14.006
that kills you is the mediocrity and
the board that you find in the

00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:18.157
environments which are designed all
the custom which are developed and

00:29:18.190 --> 00:29:23.576
that shows how difficult it is to
anticipate. It's uh so you're really

00:29:23.609 --> 00:29:28.506
trying to set up the conditions for
creativity in the best sense. Well,

00:29:28.539 --> 00:29:32.496
which again, it's very arrogant in
many ways, but you're trying at least

00:29:32.529 --> 00:29:40.529
to keep things uh unstable enough. So
that might happen naturally also to

00:29:41.869 --> 00:29:49.036
have a to define priorities that you
feel, I feel important. Sounds very

00:29:49.069 --> 00:29:51.407
dullest.

00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:59.276
It seems so much about more as though
you're going down the list of the

00:29:59.309 --> 00:30:06.306
data jing. It's uh it's so in the flow
of being in that movement and being

00:30:06.339 --> 00:30:12.066
flexible and approaching problems and
working around them and finding new

00:30:12.099 --> 00:30:16.947
solutions and always putting the
pieces together as you go along. Yes, at

00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:19.996
this point maybe we should, we should
introduce the opposite aspect, which

00:30:20.029 --> 00:30:25.707
is the continuity and permanency
tradition

00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:31.347
because without those pyramids, I
think we are just, we don't have a

00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:35.707
ground to stand on. How do you feel?

00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:41.046
Uh let's see, I feel strongly, I feel
strongly in since I come from an

00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:44.306
environment which is not the american
environment and you know, we have a

00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:48.816
certain ability to compare because I
have been both of them. I feel very

00:30:48.849 --> 00:30:54.197
deprived environmentally when I'm risk
in this country private in the

00:30:54.230 --> 00:30:59.937
sense of the not finding many things
that mankind has been able to do in

00:30:59.970 --> 00:31:04.197
other places because of more time,
basically more time to develop a

00:31:04.230 --> 00:31:07.207
culture and tradition.

00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:13.506
So I would be very careful about the
instant whatever it is played,

00:31:13.539 --> 00:31:18.707
motorcycle civilization and again,
here to find a balance between the

00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:23.776
permanency of something and the
necessity of transforming a constant

00:31:23.809 --> 00:31:27.907
transformation. Well, part of
understanding the dow is close to

00:31:27.940 --> 00:31:33.336
acknowledge the fact that whatever you
do has repercussions on all sides

00:31:33.369 --> 00:31:36.726
that it influences everything else. I
think that's very much of what

00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:43.236
you're, you're implying in the
evolutionary process that you are and it is

00:31:43.269 --> 00:31:51.269
an outflow an outbreak from the past,
which is similar to the only thing

00:31:51.369 --> 00:31:56.107
that we have to work with.

00:31:56.140 --> 00:31:59.917
So when you, when you tend to make,
let's say some kind of a jump or leap

00:31:59.950 --> 00:32:06.597
in many in many ways in terms of media
or instruments, then maybe you

00:32:06.630 --> 00:32:11.717
should be real careful in trying to
remind yourself that is also the other

00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:19.167
aspect which is not to leave but to
gently move into the future. Mhm. With

00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:26.907
a full consciousness of the uh
mankind's achievements in the past. Yeah,

00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:31.937
well and and the struggle and the and
the weight and uh and the cost of

00:32:31.970 --> 00:32:39.970
those achievements. Mhm. Okay.

00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:49.207
Mhm.

00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:55.006
Okay. one of the main things that has
made the work of Palo salary

00:32:55.039 --> 00:33:02.407
attractive to young people over the
last 15 or 20 years has been the

00:33:02.440 --> 00:33:10.440
consistency and the wisdom of his
moral position as someone who has

00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:17.986
embraced the simple life and economy
of means in his work for many years

00:33:18.019 --> 00:33:25.556
and has consistently been able to
support his creative work out of his

00:33:25.589 --> 00:33:31.556
teaching and bill making activities.
He's almost a model for this kind of

00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:36.117
thing.

00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:43.506
And it's his moral position that comes
out in the talk that we had

00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:49.506
uh huh

00:33:49.539 --> 00:33:56.796
there is a constituency which doesn't
exist yet. Our unborn Childrens and

00:33:56.829 --> 00:34:01.586
sooner or later we had to, we had to
get to turn to this constituency and

00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:07.506
say, well, am I doing something which
is at least neutral if not damaging

00:34:07.539 --> 00:34:09.907
for them.

00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:15.686
And uh really then according to what
the answer is, you should try to

00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:22.847
behave. We did. So even if you come
out with, say with a structure which

00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:30.227
is going to be pervaded by opulence
and majorities, but it responds in

00:34:30.260 --> 00:34:35.206
physical terms to a greater
congruence,

00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:40.396
an ecological equity. Then what you
pass to your Children at least is a

00:34:40.429 --> 00:34:45.816
better instrument. The instrument is
also a finality. It's not just the

00:34:45.849 --> 00:34:50.126
media, it's also a message. And this
is very true in architectural

00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:54.557
environment. When you, when you make a
glass, it might be a little less

00:34:54.590 --> 00:34:58.747
true because the glass, if it's
impermeable, if it's, you can handle it.

00:34:58.780 --> 00:35:04.206
If it's not today into dangerous, you
can accept it. But that's a very

00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:09.537
specific function. When you move into
the functional of an environment

00:35:09.570 --> 00:35:15.787
which is molding people, then the
instrument cannot just be purely a

00:35:15.820 --> 00:35:19.407
device has to be also a message

00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:24.506
which brings in the hysteric question

00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:29.146
speaking molding people. One of the
things that interest me when you first

00:35:29.179 --> 00:35:34.146
arrived in the United States was your
work in the desert in using the sand

00:35:34.179 --> 00:35:37.206
form and pouring concrete over them
and then hollowing them out and

00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:42.307
creating living spaces that were
almost imperceptible from the landscape.

00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:50.340
And uh, that appealed to my hobbit
like nature. And I was quite startled

00:35:51.170 --> 00:35:54.736
when you started moving up out of the
earth and creating these miniaturist

00:35:54.769 --> 00:36:01.506
, these condensed communities. And I
had to question myself as to how I

00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:08.947
was responding to it, but beyond my
own particular view of that, how do

00:36:08.980 --> 00:36:16.717
you see the change taking place in
phoenix, for example, just sprawling

00:36:16.750 --> 00:36:21.097
acres now of

00:36:21.130 --> 00:36:26.217
individual houses, each with their own
swimming pool, each with a very

00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:31.017
wide road in front of each with a
driveway and carport everything, you

00:36:31.050 --> 00:36:38.827
know, of self sufficient units. How do
you, in that one sense that this

00:36:38.860 --> 00:36:45.697
belongs to me? They certainly aren't
self supportive of

00:36:45.730 --> 00:36:50.367
How do you see the consciousness
changing and people willing to live

00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:56.727
tightly together and not want their
own piece of land? Well, the answer

00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:03.117
could be on a number of levels. One
level of the observer of equity. The

00:37:03.150 --> 00:37:07.597
journey is the level of the ecosystem.

00:37:07.630 --> 00:37:11.956
And not only is the level of maybe the
fundamental level of what's this

00:37:11.989 --> 00:37:17.497
scope of life ultimately on the level
of equity, evidently I can't afford

00:37:17.530 --> 00:37:23.767
a swimming pool if I wanted, but I
can't afford it because

00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:31.800
millions of other people and pay for
them. And so that can go on up to a

00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:38.606
point and I had to look at my
conscience and make a decision and they

00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:42.986
might come where we Westerners and
special americans might have to make a

00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:48.497
decision because that's decision is
going to make

00:37:48.530 --> 00:37:54.467
for for a life or non life for our
Children, anyhow. The other level of

00:37:54.500 --> 00:37:57.367
conferences that

00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:03.436
I don't think I don't think it makes
sense, especially in a Arab land for

00:38:03.469 --> 00:38:06.986
instance, we have also improved for
one person or two persons. We have

00:38:07.019 --> 00:38:11.967
also improved, but At least we pretend
to say that there are 25 or 30

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:17.816
people. Cause anti that can use it
naturally. Sandy, well, we'll have more

00:38:17.849 --> 00:38:19.986
than that.

00:38:20.019 --> 00:38:25.706
And they point you were making at the
beginning of looking at something

00:38:25.739 --> 00:38:32.137
that almost disappears in the
landscape totally different. You can make a

00:38:32.170 --> 00:38:37.407
paragon a parallel which maybe it's
not fair. But Michael ST it'll point

00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.447
you can say there's a meadow, which is
a very nice thing. And then

00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.247
suddenly you have this gigantic tree
sticking out of it. And would be I

00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.787
would be hard put to say that the
meadow

00:38:49.820 --> 00:38:56.577
or suffer and is legitimate. Industry
is illegitimate in fact. But that's

00:38:56.610 --> 00:39:02.276
only fits only to a point. But if you
if you look at what you might call

00:39:02.309 --> 00:39:09.006
the organic paul. Again, the
ecologically fitting, then I think what fitz

00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:15.986
is not the underground room, but it is
above ground.

00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:19.887
Three dimensional creature.

00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:25.727
And that's because there are there are
again the question but the ultimate

00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.787
request, ultimately a question of
understanding communication, learning,

00:39:30.820 --> 00:39:35.807
intensity, and all those things that
cannot be developed in those isolated

00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:39.267
cells. You have to have a community of
things. And since there are

00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:44.887
community of physical things, besides
being a community of mental things,

00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:49.367
you have to go back to the how
complexity is achieved. How can you have

00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:55.186
complexity without taking in the
physical parameters. So this which at

00:39:55.219 --> 00:40:00.307
first I might look more organic has to
be sacrificed for the greater

00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:05.336
organize city of. So it's not organic.
It's romantic. That's nostalgic,

00:40:05.369 --> 00:40:11.747
right? Which is not evil per se that
when you multiply it no, by the

00:40:11.780 --> 00:40:19.780
millions, which is what we are now, it
becomes evil. No, it's the society

00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:24.276
based on aristocracy. Could have could
have extravaganzas because they

00:40:24.309 --> 00:40:28.227
were for three few people. But as soon
as this organza function people

00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:35.086
becomes the norm, then you really got
a problem. So while the automobile

00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:43.119
was a a toy For let's say one or 2% of
the population, it was one thing

00:40:44.380 --> 00:40:50.177
when this story became the instrument
for survival for everyone

00:40:50.210 --> 00:40:55.206
that big consequences. And so it's for
everything else including swimming

00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:58.776
pools. So we have to be careful of
things that are designed solely for our

00:40:58.809 --> 00:41:03.686
own benefit. We have to think broader
just because they are feasible and

00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:07.436
because they have some appeal
evidently there are a many things are

00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:12.086
appealing, but we have to watch out
what they mean when they are

00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:19.477
translated into the collectivity into
what dear fellow will do.

00:41:19.510 --> 00:41:24.517
Do I want these sort of fell do what I
do. And then I have to watch out

00:41:24.550 --> 00:41:30.097
the size of things and the clutter of
things and a number of things. And

00:41:30.130 --> 00:41:34.526
so and by the other fellow, in many
cases you mean millions of other

00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:39.497
people that that's a better thing that
brings in the necessity of

00:41:39.530 --> 00:41:44.276
frugality and

00:41:44.309 --> 00:41:49.606
can't escape it, I guess of awareness.
That's really what it comes down to

00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:54.936
it. It's really involved awareness and
then performance because I can be

00:41:54.969 --> 00:42:00.867
aware of many things and then go my
merry way without acting apartment.

00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:06.017
So that brings in the question of
hypocrisy and the vision you offer, the

00:42:06.050 --> 00:42:11.666
experience that you offer to people is

00:42:11.699 --> 00:42:17.867
certainly very radically different
from what America has traditionally

00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:24.666
meant to people. It's been an
expansionist traditionalists uh situation. I

00:42:24.699 --> 00:42:30.077
mean this country was at least in its
present form. Leaving aside the

00:42:30.110 --> 00:42:36.146
native american culture founded by
european refugees. People who who had

00:42:36.179 --> 00:42:41.847
had it with traditional european
cultural forms. Uh we're not able to uh

00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:44.847
pursue their lives and the ways that
they wanted to, they founded a

00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:52.416
country which is based on a very a
vision of kind of openness and

00:42:52.449 --> 00:43:00.449
expansion. And Now 250 years later
we're seeing that we're having to

00:43:01.699 --> 00:43:07.867
reconsider some of those very
fundamental concepts and it's just kind of

00:43:07.900 --> 00:43:10.066
uh

00:43:10.099 --> 00:43:17.066
this is a counter psychology almost
that you're offering to people.

00:43:17.099 --> 00:43:23.867
Well, I think there's a link between

00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:31.900
uh huh the belief that there's always
an X frontier and possibly the

00:43:33.570 --> 00:43:39.827
inability to set limits to one's own
greed and one's own acquisition and

00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:46.267
was the feeling of the sacredness of
on the ship or whatever.

00:43:46.300 --> 00:43:51.026
Yeah. And I think there's been an
elemental exploitation in this country

00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:55.747
not because the people in this country
were less good or terrible because

00:43:55.780 --> 00:43:59.856
it just happened in this country was
such a cornucopia. I mean It was

00:43:59.889 --> 00:44:03.336
harsh and difficult but was there
available. So there's always the

00:44:03.369 --> 00:44:06.666
possibility of exploiting this piece
of ground, exhausting it and then

00:44:06.699 --> 00:44:12.807
move 500 yards and repeat the same
thing. So I'm wondering sometimes if

00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:16.677
the vastness of this country wasn't
one of the reasons for the character

00:44:16.710 --> 00:44:20.956
of our society and

00:44:20.989 --> 00:44:25.686
and at this point we are beginning to
understand that exploitation and

00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:29.557
accumulation and

00:44:29.590 --> 00:44:36.847
uh huh It's they're not really what we
should be after. I sense you don't

00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:42.936
you can't look at yourself as a
european anymore and yet you're not really

00:44:42.969 --> 00:44:46.287
embracing the mythologies that have
sustained America is that just make

00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:51.407
you a cosmic citizens? Well,

00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.256
I don't know. But as far as
citizenship, I always said that I would rather

00:44:55.289 --> 00:45:00.157
lose one and to acquire one in a sense
of you know, eventually it would

00:45:00.190 --> 00:45:06.876
make very much sense ah in terms of
law that I am american swiss or indian

00:45:06.909 --> 00:45:11.046
so on, but for the moment we'll stick
with it and maybe we have to accept

00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:16.646
those conditions but again, since we
are a privileged society in the sense

00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:22.327
that we have so much, maybe we should
try to begin to consider those

00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:29.657
aspects as if not illegitimate As very
interesting.

00:45:29.690 --> 00:45:31.856
Thanks

00:45:31.889 --> 00:45:34.657
Yeah

00:45:34.690 --> 00:45:38.597
mm

00:45:38.630 --> 00:45:45.956
please. Okay mm

00:45:45.989 --> 00:45:49.747
the best article I've been able to
find on the work of sala salary comes

00:45:49.780 --> 00:45:56.077
from a book by William Irwin Thompson
called passages about earth and in

00:45:56.110 --> 00:46:00.436
the chapter on individuals who have
become institutions, He talks about

00:46:00.469 --> 00:46:07.296
salary, he says, if man is to find his
place in an arc ology, he must not

00:46:07.329 --> 00:46:11.767
move about in bourgeois upward
mobility. He must not move about in the

00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:16.307
ecologically burdensome culture of
wealth with its cars, ski doos and

00:46:16.340 --> 00:46:22.006
cabin cruisers. Like a man in the
Middle Ages, he must know his place and

00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:25.896
like a man in the Middle Ages to know
his place, he must live in a

00:46:25.929 --> 00:46:29.916
spiritual culture that makes up for
all the toys that he has lost from the

00:46:29.949 --> 00:46:34.836
old bourgeois materialistic,
democratic days. The return of the Middle

00:46:34.869 --> 00:46:39.606
Ages is clear in salaries thought says
William Irwin Thompson, the

00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:44.807
prostate or not, Solaris culture is
catholic and his our ecologies, a

00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:48.546
medieval cathedral towns,

00:46:48.579 --> 00:46:53.927
we didn't have very much time to tim
power down on this subjects, but

00:46:53.960 --> 00:47:01.247
before he escape from us, we made one
more attempt.

00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:09.146
Mhm

00:47:09.179 --> 00:47:17.179
felt like you've been working for 30
or more years pursuing your vision

00:47:17.369 --> 00:47:21.057
for a

00:47:21.090 --> 00:47:27.927
an integrated man. Uhh one that would
take advantage of the the best of

00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:32.026
the past traditions of humanity and
also

00:47:32.059 --> 00:47:36.506
at the same time, not turn your back
on the new possibilities that our

00:47:36.539 --> 00:47:44.539
technology and our present did uh
scientific development offers us

00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:50.626
and you've been really remarkably
successful in articulating your ideas

00:47:50.659 --> 00:47:56.646
and turning them as much as possible
into built form.

00:47:56.679 --> 00:48:03.717
Ah I would like to know what you feel
you may be able to achieve in the

00:48:03.750 --> 00:48:11.236
remainder of your life in order to
express these ideas.

00:48:11.269 --> 00:48:16.986
Well one thing would be to be able to
develop enough a prototype which

00:48:17.019 --> 00:48:23.436
might begin to function and
demonstrate and also be a place for

00:48:23.469 --> 00:48:29.526
for improvements and changes and
corrections and so on. And you're honest

00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:32.936
to develop the parallel

00:48:32.969 --> 00:48:37.747
mm model which I tend to quiet on this
cattle ology at this point. Some

00:48:37.780 --> 00:48:44.436
kind of geological geological mm
model. Because I think that at this point

00:48:44.469 --> 00:48:48.617
we really need something of that sort.
And in a way I feel that some of

00:48:48.650 --> 00:48:55.467
the at least many of the traditional
geologists are. I'm not responding to

00:48:55.500 --> 00:49:00.876
that. Can you tell us what that word
means to you? Anthology? Yes. Well

00:49:00.909 --> 00:49:05.526
pathology. I think the website said
something about the science or the the

00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:09.436
inquest inquiry into the final

00:49:09.469 --> 00:49:16.126
final aim. Finality. So I don't
believe that we at this point we can we

00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:22.606
can think in those terms, no, not as a
truth or as an existing thing but

00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:29.236
as an hypothesis and we know now that
the truth is somehow based based on

00:49:29.269 --> 00:49:36.236
fulfillment of hypothesis more than
existing things or rules.

00:49:36.269 --> 00:49:41.427
So you make a model. Then you try to
fulfill it to develop those

00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:46.296
conditions which are making the model
reality uh there to come up with a

00:49:46.329 --> 00:49:52.767
model which which makes sense Or
hopefully it's transcends what exists now

00:49:52.800 --> 00:50:00.800
in good better in metal terms. So we
have been inventing theologies for

00:50:01.570 --> 00:50:08.927
for ages. I mean in fact man appeared
when theology was invented I guess

00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:13.327
what we want to go over time.

00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:21.360
Yeah. Mhm.

00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:29.460
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:33.460 --> 00:50:41.460
One of the most for both of them.

00:50:43.260 --> 00:50:45.526
Mhm.

00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:49.227
You know what?

00:50:49.260 --> 00:50:52.927
Okay. Yeah.

00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:56.836
Yeah.

00:50:56.869 --> 00:51:00.407
The opportunity that we had to
interview palace salary came about as a

00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:05.296
result of one of his infrequent visits
to san Francisco. Yeah. And he

00:51:05.329 --> 00:51:12.356
brought with him some of his uh huh
assistants and students. Yeah. one of

00:51:12.389 --> 00:51:18.396
them was a young man named Jack
Blackwell. Jack was described as one of

00:51:18.429 --> 00:51:22.827
the real veterans of Arcosanti

00:51:22.860 --> 00:51:28.907
since he had been there for six years.
Sure made him one of the senior

00:51:28.940 --> 00:51:32.126
citizens.

00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:38.017
Yeah. Right after paolo made that last
remark about man appearing when

00:51:38.050 --> 00:51:41.796
theology was embedded, everyone broke
up and said how do you know that

00:51:41.829 --> 00:51:47.619
bologna. Jack said well you real
that's the story you really ought to get.

00:51:48.559 --> 00:51:50.559
Well after the exhibition of the great model of Arcosanti was

00:51:55.360 --> 00:52:03.360
finished at the cow palace, that's
part of a big garden and ecology and so

00:52:04.889 --> 00:52:10.217
on and so forth. Type of show. Jack
Blackwell was kind enough to come back

00:52:10.250 --> 00:52:14.717
into the studio and give us a

00:52:14.750 --> 00:52:22.517
Yeah, very heart felt very open, kind
of deep interview that showed me how

00:52:22.550 --> 00:52:30.550
much he has absorbed from salary and
how truly

00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:36.747
I'm talking with Jack Blackwell who
has been working with paolo Soleri for

00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:42.677
a number of years now. Jack maybe uh
we could start by, if you could

00:52:42.710 --> 00:52:48.727
describe to us how you came to get
involved with power and where that has

00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:51.416
led you

00:52:51.449 --> 00:52:57.097
you have to start with childhood. I
think I grew up in a place it would be

00:52:57.130 --> 00:53:05.130
ah maybe the idyllic suburbia as
opposed to the a tract home reality. And

00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:11.157
its very first manifestations, what we
call suburbia is really a as much

00:53:11.190 --> 00:53:18.376
of a utopian venture is as our
colleges are today. In a lot of ways, if we

00:53:18.409 --> 00:53:23.717
use the term utopian with a little bit
of caution.

00:53:23.750 --> 00:53:27.617
I grew up in that community which the
residents themselves got together

00:53:27.650 --> 00:53:35.117
and and financed and built and it was
very open place socially. At the

00:53:35.150 --> 00:53:42.217
same time it was water indirectly on
nature.

00:53:42.250 --> 00:53:47.956
Those impressions still remain very
strong and they've always been my

00:53:47.989 --> 00:53:51.927
frame of reference in dealing with
environments. The fact that I can move

00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:56.927
very freely around the local social
environment with a lot of

00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:00.646
reinforcement. I think this came back
in the Haight ashbury in a lot of

00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:08.026
ways. Ah and the fact that virgin
nature, so to speak, it was right there

00:54:08.059 --> 00:54:12.706
right there. This

00:54:12.739 --> 00:54:15.506
it was

00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:21.537
remained in my mind as the tract homes
began to cover this land. And

00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:24.407
really turn it into

00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:29.537
survey as we know it, the kind of
mentality involved in that is much

00:54:29.570 --> 00:54:34.407
different. The exploitative economics

00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:42.440
vis a vis kind of cooperative
economics. My parents in there, friends are

00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:49.139
involved in this is this was not a
radical socialism or anything like that.

00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:54.717
It was very middle class upbringing
and what you might call culturally

00:54:54.750 --> 00:55:00.887
barren if you're city dweller. But the
emotional level was there and the

00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:03.606
living outdoors,

00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:08.206
contacting nature as a child, the
ability of a child to move freely.

00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:13.407
Thanks. It's incredibly critical.

00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:16.907
My education is

00:55:16.940 --> 00:55:22.706
liberal arts at a school in
southwestern Ohio

00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:30.739
Joed the Army in 1966. Out of a desire
for experience and who break out of

00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:35.907
the path towards

00:55:35.940 --> 00:55:42.356
typical career in society. I guess
that college was heading me too. Ah I

00:55:42.389 --> 00:55:49.606
was influenced by people like Henry
miller, iron rand, uh

00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:57.639
people who counseled the doctrine of
looking to yourself for knowledge

00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:03.787
and this was all new to me and the
environment of my upbringing,

00:56:03.820 --> 00:56:11.756
The army, ironically enough sent me to
san Francisco eventually 1967,

00:56:11.789 --> 00:56:19.789
which was very important time to be
here. I believe

00:56:20.329 --> 00:56:25.477
the whole experience of that era is
it's impossible to summarize. And I

00:56:25.510 --> 00:56:28.796
only say that

00:56:28.829 --> 00:56:34.296
Altamonte, is it maybe a focal event

00:56:34.329 --> 00:56:41.236
because there we turned up all the
demons under all the rocks and realized

00:56:41.269 --> 00:56:45.396
that the road towards

00:56:45.429 --> 00:56:49.026
better times was going to involve a
lot more work than maybe a lot of us

00:56:49.059 --> 00:56:51.896
had anticipated

00:56:51.929 --> 00:56:57.456
at that point, I came in contact with
Solaris ideas.

00:56:57.489 --> 00:57:01.697
I realized in my own mind that

00:57:01.730 --> 00:57:04.896
We had two roads

00:57:04.929 --> 00:57:11.506
basically possible for for our
generation to work within one was could be

00:57:11.539 --> 00:57:17.097
called Mysticism, one could be called
the

00:57:17.130 --> 00:57:23.497
the emerging electronic hardware's

00:57:23.530 --> 00:57:27.336
and of course, rock music, it was the
beginning of an interface of those

00:57:27.369 --> 00:57:33.697
things for it, for the early bands. I
think that was the case.

00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:40.267
Ultimate told us there wasn't enough
somehow, that wasn't enough and I and

00:57:40.300 --> 00:57:43.896
that thing to tame

00:57:43.929 --> 00:57:49.646
the animal and us and therefore we
didn't really have the basis for a new

00:57:49.679 --> 00:57:53.477
civilization

00:57:53.510 --> 00:58:00.086
in that medium. But sorry,

00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:03.986
included the the morphology,

00:58:04.019 --> 00:58:07.686
physical arrangement of things

00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:11.186
in our environment

00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:19.219
as as the overriding factor and how we
can relate to one another.

00:58:20.110 --> 00:58:23.387
And the Haight Ashbury,

00:58:23.420 --> 00:58:28.827
there was a synthesis of people on the
level I think historically is

00:58:28.860 --> 00:58:31.086
unprecedented.

00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:34.086
And uh

00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:38.447
there's certainly been a lot of
cynicism about it in the meantime. But I

00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:43.787
have to hang in there and say that
I'll stick by that.

00:58:43.820 --> 00:58:49.287
It's something that I could never let
go.

00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:54.287
Person raised in a very small town,
middle class environment,

00:58:54.320 --> 00:59:00.787
but with a certain amount of a
communal integrity

00:59:00.820 --> 00:59:06.057
being exposed to synthesis that really
represents what the city is all

00:59:06.090 --> 00:59:12.347
about as an institution historically

00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:16.287
in evolutionary terms.

00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:18.986
So,

00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:23.086
where do we go after the heat? Well,

00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:27.287
I think we go towards trying to
establish

00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:35.320
more of a duration, all basis for it.
That level of of intensity and we

00:59:35.420 --> 00:59:39.956
all took a lot of drugs. But it seems
in the meantime, people are taking a

00:59:39.989 --> 00:59:45.396
lot of drugs to its not having the
same effect. Well, the reason may be

00:59:45.429 --> 00:59:47.986
the premises

00:59:48.019 --> 00:59:50.186
and

00:59:50.219 --> 00:59:55.847
the openness to which which we all
entered the situation.

00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:03.276
I believe that's typical of i
historical golden ages.

01:00:03.309 --> 01:00:09.206
I believe what we're after, what's
hilarious after in its own way as a

01:00:09.239 --> 01:00:16.276
society where okay, standing on the
street,

01:00:16.309 --> 01:00:21.376
there's an energy present which

01:00:21.409 --> 01:00:29.177
next to impossible for you to be
anything but positive and creative

01:00:29.210 --> 01:00:35.077
about the group you're involved in and
about the environment you're in.

01:00:35.110 --> 01:00:41.537
In the 60s, we were developing that
type of consciousness with him and

01:00:41.570 --> 01:00:44.776
environment

01:00:44.809 --> 01:00:52.197
which was very unrelated to the
consciousness in many ways. Mhm san

01:00:52.230 --> 01:00:54.876
Francisco

01:00:54.909 --> 01:01:02.077
was built in the early 20th century.
Most of it uh huh.

01:01:02.110 --> 01:01:05.977
With the economic drives being
predominant

01:01:06.010 --> 01:01:12.577
with segregation of individuals on a
as we know, victorian

01:01:12.610 --> 01:01:15.177
model.

01:01:15.210 --> 01:01:22.876
So we found in the sixties, within
that more apology

01:01:22.909 --> 01:01:26.977
victorian society, they couldn't grow

01:01:27.010 --> 01:01:31.876
the consciousness

01:01:31.909 --> 01:01:35.276
that we had for a moment

01:01:35.309 --> 01:01:39.986
for a long period of time. Or at least
not that great intensity except

01:01:40.019 --> 01:01:45.796
through the incredible resources and
energy of youth that just by its

01:01:45.829 --> 01:01:53.456
nature is not put off. But in the long
run we have to confront

01:01:53.489 --> 01:01:57.577
the physical morphology of our
environments

01:01:57.610 --> 01:02:04.776
as perhaps the determining factor in
and how much synthesis as possible

01:02:04.809 --> 01:02:10.977
within a group of people. So Larry was
doing this. He was doing it Well in

01:02:11.010 --> 01:02:18.666
the 50s. Mhm. So it seems like it has
been a concern of architects and

01:02:18.699 --> 01:02:24.467
town planners since time immemorial.
But sure,

01:02:24.500 --> 01:02:30.427
One of the things that came out of the
late 60s was a sense of criticism

01:02:30.460 --> 01:02:35.916
of the of the existing society, people
feeling that no matter how

01:02:35.949 --> 01:02:39.486
beautiful the environments were, that
we could create for ourselves. And

01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:47.519
you say you describe one of the
idyllic suburban, quote suburban

01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:52.236
environments which our culture did
manage to create and I think a lot of

01:02:52.269 --> 01:02:56.197
that was rationalized around the
rearing of Children, a good place for my

01:02:56.230 --> 01:03:02.177
kid to grow up, not like what I had to
do. I'm sure people who came out of

01:03:02.210 --> 01:03:10.210
the basically european type cities
which were rebuilt on our shores in the

01:03:11.269 --> 01:03:17.137
in America by european residents, uh I
wanted to create something

01:03:17.170 --> 01:03:21.086
different and they did, but then it
was realized that underneath that

01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:26.767
where all the implicitly held
assumptions and cultural patterns and values

01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:33.287
that were who people were and I feel
that a lot of energy has gone into

01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:37.867
changing that figuring that the the
changes in the physical environment

01:03:37.900 --> 01:03:42.756
will will naturally follow that. Uh I
think you're right, I think you're

01:03:42.789 --> 01:03:46.807
absolutely right, The changes will
follow, but they will follow slowly

01:03:46.840 --> 01:03:53.267
because environments change much
slower than our consciousness does. Right.

01:03:53.300 --> 01:04:01.300
So arcosanti, the work of redeveloping
human settlements around or

01:04:01.300 --> 01:04:07.356
integrated models is it's very
logically and simply

01:04:07.389 --> 01:04:09.657
the

01:04:09.690 --> 01:04:13.557
expression of

01:04:13.590 --> 01:04:18.387
a consciousness which must already
exist to a certain extent in order that

01:04:18.420 --> 01:04:21.557
those things could happen and it's
trying, trying to come out in a

01:04:21.590 --> 01:04:28.057
physical and appropriate physical
form. Yes. And also it's use it or lose

01:04:28.090 --> 01:04:32.947
it I guess. So for me anyway, if
you've got that consciousness well great

01:04:32.980 --> 01:04:38.697
, that's fine. But you won't even have
it tomorrow unless it has some

01:04:38.730 --> 01:04:44.626
place to flow. That's that's valid.
And there are entropic dead ends where

01:04:44.659 --> 01:04:49.557
many people's consciousness as has had
to flow because of the arrangement

01:04:49.590 --> 01:04:56.157
of things now. And I think we will
lose it if we don't

01:04:56.190 --> 01:04:58.456
shortly

01:04:58.489 --> 01:05:00.856
device

01:05:00.889 --> 01:05:06.126
more efficient use us for it. Our
ecology is being the the primary one

01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:10.166
that I have in my mind at this moment.
You yourself were not trained as an

01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:17.626
architect or a designer and as I
understand it, your your role within the

01:05:17.659 --> 01:05:23.177
Arcosanti work is that of a teacher
and somebody who is coordinating

01:05:23.210 --> 01:05:29.197
educational programs and sort of
reinforcing or making clarifying the

01:05:29.230 --> 01:05:34.847
ideas which are the underpinning
intellectual structure of the whole thing.

01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:40.356
Is that fair? That's one role
definitely. And what is along with that

01:05:40.389 --> 01:05:44.727
goes hand in hand, the role of the
builder

01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:52.356
and that's I'm trying to live what I
see is as the archaeologists in the

01:05:52.389 --> 01:05:58.697
making lifestyle, which is to
integrate the activity of building designing

01:05:58.730 --> 01:06:05.947
, Conceiving of environments with the
activity of

01:06:05.980 --> 01:06:08.947
what you might call spiritual

01:06:08.980 --> 01:06:13.947
ah advancement and growth.

01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:19.066
And as I said earlier, those two
realities for me, all right, the same

01:06:19.099 --> 01:06:24.727
thing in many ways I came to Solaris
without a formal architectural

01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:31.057
background, self taught and what I
would consider to be what Buckminster

01:06:31.090 --> 01:06:37.447
Fuller calls comprehensive design
science.

01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:40.046
Trying to

01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:44.646
integrate generalities from a number
of perspectives.

01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:48.097
But and I see that as the only way in
which the present generation can

01:06:48.130 --> 01:06:56.130
really come to grips with. It's
historical destiny with

01:06:56.380 --> 01:07:03.097
we developed a refined degree of
specialization to to an extreme, which is

01:07:03.130 --> 01:07:07.467
certainly valid in evolutionary terms.
But people like salary are

01:07:07.500 --> 01:07:13.206
important because they've gone beyond
those boundaries and try to

01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:16.347
synthesize

01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:21.747
all knowledge again in a way that's
why you could almost call salary and

01:07:21.780 --> 01:07:26.537
other contemporary people of that
nature profits. This is what I see the

01:07:26.570 --> 01:07:32.947
profit does performs for society
historically. So as a self taught person

01:07:32.980 --> 01:07:40.980
, my approach to arcosanti is as a
learning system in which

01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:47.916
there's really an instant testing of
the validity of one's behavior. If

01:07:47.949 --> 01:07:52.977
it's not real good environment, there
is intense enough that it's going to

01:07:53.010 --> 01:07:59.106
blow you out. That sounds pretty off
the wall. Well let's try to clarify

01:07:59.139 --> 01:08:05.697
that. But you mean to work real tests
for definitely your ideas and on

01:08:05.730 --> 01:08:12.137
many levels. Yeah. Including just
playing physical endurance.

01:08:12.170 --> 01:08:18.467
Began as a as a laborer and I got
involved in building a large piece of

01:08:18.500 --> 01:08:25.097
public sculpture that Apollo designed
for the city of phoenix. So one ton

01:08:25.130 --> 01:08:33.130
cor 10 steel woman flying through
space. It's about 20 x 20 ft x eight ft.

01:08:34.569 --> 01:08:39.456
Well that's steel plate. Yeah. Through
that involvement, I got interested

01:08:39.489 --> 01:08:45.916
in the metal trades and became the
welder at Arcosanti. But there's no way

01:08:45.949 --> 01:08:51.746
that someone with all the metaphysical
balance that we all carry our can

01:08:51.779 --> 01:08:59.779
do welding without without a real
sense of of Mhm. Mhm. Using that as a

01:09:01.100 --> 01:09:03.237
metaphor.

01:09:03.270 --> 01:09:10.137
What holds the city together in a way
this molten steel, incredible heat,

01:09:10.170 --> 01:09:16.637
blinding light. All these things have
have more than a casual significance.

01:09:16.670 --> 01:09:20.267
And they certainly did for me. And
there's a romantic adventure to the

01:09:20.300 --> 01:09:28.300
early days of our cassini which it's
still there in some ways. So

01:09:29.170 --> 01:09:34.937
you kind of well, the head now in the
in the promotional uh brochures that

01:09:34.970 --> 01:09:38.156
you send out to people, you kind of
stressed the aspect that this is

01:09:38.189 --> 01:09:41.696
really going to be hard work and you
may have to do some things you don't

01:09:41.729 --> 01:09:46.626
want to do. And I do. I seem to
remember that the sense of adventure was

01:09:46.659 --> 01:09:51.137
much more present in the message that
was being put out in the early days.

01:09:51.170 --> 01:09:55.706
Huh? I'm not sure probably many people
are still attracted to that as the

01:09:55.739 --> 01:10:00.036
adventure has simply changed levels as
far as I'm concerned. And it's it's

01:10:00.069 --> 01:10:03.086
a much more complex adventure. And
it's going to get much more complex

01:10:03.119 --> 01:10:07.687
because we're trying to or trying to

01:10:07.720 --> 01:10:14.857
Integrate 40 500 minds more so than
has ever been done historically, as

01:10:14.890 --> 01:10:20.357
far as I'm concerned. So it's 4500.
The ultimate population for our

01:10:20.390 --> 01:10:23.996
Cassani, Or is that a number of
people? That's the projected population.

01:10:24.029 --> 01:10:26.317
The number of people that are working
on the project now is in the

01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:33.326
hundreds At times it is above 100. But
the number of people Working there

01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:40.619
full time is still about 25. I see
those people changed quite frequently.

01:10:42.359 --> 01:10:44.359
Well how do you get from well into running a to try to give people an

01:10:48.189 --> 01:10:52.727
experience of evolution? Ah

01:10:52.760 --> 01:10:58.227
you get there by realizing that our
Cassani

01:10:58.260 --> 01:11:02.996
as we worked on it in the early years.
It was moving awfully slowly and

01:11:03.029 --> 01:11:08.527
although it's very easy to feel
satisfaction about erecting a wall panel

01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:14.326
which takes you all day and takes a
huge amount of involvement in energy.

01:11:14.359 --> 01:11:19.126
Yeah. And people have done it
themselves and feel the accomplishment.

01:11:19.159 --> 01:11:23.746
It's a very ego gratifying thing. In
the end you have to confront the

01:11:23.779 --> 01:11:30.366
scale of the undertaking and the fact
that it would never be completed at

01:11:30.399 --> 01:11:35.527
the rate we were moving. So what can
be applied, what energy can be

01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:38.826
applied to

01:11:38.859 --> 01:11:45.626
give us the wherewithal for that
quantum leap into

01:11:45.659 --> 01:11:51.126
uh huh building the town itself,

01:11:51.159 --> 01:11:57.666
I found that energy personally and
it's hilarious ideas and after several

01:11:57.699 --> 01:12:02.317
years of immersion in that. And then
the thought of Teilhard de Chardin an

01:12:02.350 --> 01:12:04.817
and then

01:12:04.850 --> 01:12:08.906
relating those to many, many other
thinkers

01:12:08.939 --> 01:12:13.437
and many people who came to
Carcassonne and shared their energy and

01:12:13.470 --> 01:12:17.817
intellect and ideas.

01:12:17.850 --> 01:12:23.057
It seemed that Carcassonne was no
different from the human race in general

01:12:23.090 --> 01:12:30.616
, in lots of ways we're bogged down
and cynicism were bogged down in the

01:12:30.649 --> 01:12:34.116
in an overflow of

01:12:34.149 --> 01:12:39.387
self consciousness and reflection that
Is happening on a mass scale in the

01:12:39.420 --> 01:12:41.897
20th century.

01:12:41.930 --> 01:12:47.826
We're vastly in need of confidence
building at the very deepest level of

01:12:47.859 --> 01:12:50.916
our beings.

01:12:50.949 --> 01:12:57.406
That's the species as a whole. And
classical religions are not giving it

01:12:57.439 --> 01:13:05.317
to us anymore. Imagine there's no
heaven

01:13:05.350 --> 01:13:10.916
season you try,

01:13:10.949 --> 01:13:18.949
no hell been loan

01:13:57.750 --> 01:14:04.107
arcosanti is as it presumes to be an
arrow had an evolution.

01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:10.107
It really requires that we work out

01:14:10.140 --> 01:14:12.807
the motivation

01:14:12.840 --> 01:14:18.506
and clarity of aim there first,

01:14:18.539 --> 01:14:23.427
as presumptuous as that sounds,

01:14:23.460 --> 01:14:26.706
I've begun to find the

01:14:26.739 --> 01:14:32.006
the source of that clarity and
motivation and they're interrelated

01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:37.906
commitment to do this work which is a
vast reorganization of not only

01:14:37.939 --> 01:14:41.376
people's heads but

01:14:41.409 --> 01:14:49.409
the day to day where we live.

01:15:07.539 --> 01:15:10.406
Yeah,

01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:18.439
I have the feeling that what Solari
has gotten and

01:15:18.539 --> 01:15:22.807
absorbing the perspective of Teilhard
de Chardin,

01:15:22.840 --> 01:15:29.906
the whole idea of a cosmic evolution
leading through

01:15:29.939 --> 01:15:33.107
human beings to another state

01:15:33.140 --> 01:15:39.647
somewhere in the future. The trends
that we extrapolate from that and the

01:15:39.680 --> 01:15:44.506
significance of the position of men
today

01:15:44.539 --> 01:15:49.187
in that in that process.

01:15:49.220 --> 01:15:57.220
I think so. Larry is taking a step
beyond any classical religion

01:15:57.829 --> 01:16:00.897
and saying that

01:16:00.930 --> 01:16:06.006
there is no pre existing God that's
created this universe. Ah the universe

01:16:06.039 --> 01:16:09.496
began

01:16:09.529 --> 01:16:15.897
not by chance by probability, but by
the simple

01:16:15.930 --> 01:16:23.930
logic that to have something is more
probable than to have nothing

01:16:25.800 --> 01:16:29.796
and that by loss of great numbers. The
first synthesis in the universe

01:16:29.829 --> 01:16:33.196
came into being

01:16:33.229 --> 01:16:35.876
gradually.

01:16:35.909 --> 01:16:41.727
Is this process of synthesis unfolds.
It leads us through the rise of life

01:16:41.760 --> 01:16:47.477
and planetary systems. It leads us to
the rise of thought and it leads us

01:16:47.510 --> 01:16:53.296
to the present.

01:16:53.329 --> 01:17:01.329
As far as I'm aware, this whole idea,
the evolution of thought towards

01:17:01.329 --> 01:17:08.506
higher level has been expressed in
every occult system of self

01:17:08.539 --> 01:17:16.237
enlightenment, but it's hilarious
expressing it on the level of planetary

01:17:16.270 --> 01:17:21.897
man. Not not how do you as an
individual

01:17:21.930 --> 01:17:27.437
control and create the universe, but
but as a social thing that you as an

01:17:27.470 --> 01:17:30.097
individual are

01:17:30.130 --> 01:17:36.786
a seamless web with other individuals
in the world, in the world of the

01:17:36.819 --> 01:17:41.496
flesh and thought creating itself.

01:17:41.529 --> 01:17:46.796
Of course. Hillary, that is God at
this point

01:17:46.829 --> 01:17:50.696
in our universe, there is nothing
beyond

01:17:50.729 --> 01:17:58.729
thus. You and I, leading us protecting
us, taking care of us after we're

01:17:59.239 --> 01:18:01.387
dead

01:18:01.420 --> 01:18:06.456
or helping us to get through the next
day

01:18:06.489 --> 01:18:14.489
or helping us to create to transform
the material world.

01:18:15.220 --> 01:18:18.887
Salary expresses

01:18:18.920 --> 01:18:26.920
this thought that man's intelligence
is not in the process of discovering

01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:31.977
the truth. It is in the process of
creating it.

01:18:32.010 --> 01:18:40.010
And such revelations as we have
through classical religions represent

01:18:40.920 --> 01:18:45.786
our ability to imagine the future

01:18:45.819 --> 01:18:52.687
and in fact classical religion has has
needed up to this point because in

01:18:52.720 --> 01:18:58.506
a way our consciousness is that of an
infant to it, imagine past

01:18:58.539 --> 01:19:01.487
perfection that existed

01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:07.006
for salary. This proposition is
reversed. The classical religions are

01:19:07.039 --> 01:19:14.616
valid only in so much as these images
of mhm of grace, of the garden of

01:19:14.649 --> 01:19:19.687
Eden and so forth. Were

01:19:19.720 --> 01:19:26.557
we're like metaphysical architecture.
They were

01:19:26.590 --> 01:19:31.487
the way in which the mind must

01:19:31.520 --> 01:19:38.737
take hold of itself and give itself
direction on a societal,

01:19:38.770 --> 01:19:45.187
At a societal level and individual
level two. But

01:19:45.220 --> 01:19:48.286
these were only simulations

01:19:48.319 --> 01:19:56.319
that nothing such as that existed
except in the imagination of of us.

01:19:58.520 --> 01:20:06.520
And that in fact that perfection, that
total enlightenment only exists

01:20:09.010 --> 01:20:11.456
as a possibility.

01:20:11.489 --> 01:20:15.737
It exists as a possibility. And at
this point in history where at a time

01:20:15.770 --> 01:20:21.767
when the classical religions are
actually holding us back that to imagine

01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:29.439
that some one something, some other
force. It's going to bail us out.

01:20:32.909 --> 01:20:34.909
There's a negative influence on evolution because at this point man must

01:20:37.210 --> 01:20:43.326
take total responsibility for life.
There's no other alternative. And any

01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:49.857
religion which teach us that that
responsibility lies elsewhere for salary

01:20:49.890 --> 01:20:57.177
anyway. And I've come to agree, uh
lets us off the hook to the extent that

01:20:57.210 --> 01:21:05.210
a total creative power is night
present interactions

01:21:05.810 --> 01:21:09.397
at this point, man must take total
responsibility for life. There's no

01:21:09.430 --> 01:21:12.376
other alternative.

01:21:12.409 --> 01:21:19.237
And any religion which teaches that
that responsibility lies elsewhere for

01:21:19.270 --> 01:21:25.477
salary anyway. And I've come to agree
uh lets us off the hook to the

01:21:25.510 --> 01:21:32.977
extent that our total creative power
is not present interactions

01:21:33.010 --> 01:21:41.010
and then even and can lead to stopping
it of the growth of consciousness.

01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:50.246
10 yards short, Hannah's

01:21:50.279 --> 01:21:55.376
expressed the idea that

01:21:55.409 --> 01:21:59.277
reflection must ultimately

01:21:59.310 --> 01:22:06.647
be able to see awaiting the way ahead
of itself. That's

01:22:06.680 --> 01:22:14.067
that's worth pursuing higher destiny.
Or it will the board itself, it will.

01:22:14.100 --> 01:22:22.100
The structure of consciousness is such
that it cannot exist. Ah well,

01:22:23.500 --> 01:22:27.467
commit mental suicide as it were.

01:22:27.500 --> 01:22:32.397
Consciousness introduces a choice into
life. It introduces the power of

01:22:32.430 --> 01:22:36.637
life to take account of itself and
determine whether it should continue or

01:22:36.670 --> 01:22:43.967
whether it should stop

01:22:44.000 --> 01:22:50.416
Solari. I think it represents a
breakthrough. He's going to say that yes,

01:22:50.449 --> 01:22:57.626
all the classical religions are valid,
but what we need now as a religion

01:22:57.659 --> 01:23:01.267
and he uses the term. So I'm not

01:23:01.300 --> 01:23:05.067
not bastardizing it.

01:23:05.100 --> 01:23:10.267
A religion which can include and go
beyond

01:23:10.300 --> 01:23:17.256
all those traditions, a planetary
religion. And it's the religion of God

01:23:17.289 --> 01:23:22.696
making it's the religion that we
believe that through taking total

01:23:22.729 --> 01:23:29.996
responsibility for it. What has made
us what we stand for that is All of

01:23:30.029 --> 01:23:36.166
life, all 15 billion years that we
know about scientifically Anyway,

01:23:36.199 --> 01:23:39.067
Weston

01:23:39.100 --> 01:23:42.876
and each one of us

01:23:42.909 --> 01:23:49.967
and nowhere else we are, we are life
at this point.

01:23:50.000 --> 01:23:56.366
And we are life taking

01:23:56.399 --> 01:24:02.956
taking an evolutionary dead end,
scattering into entropy or consolidating

01:24:02.989 --> 01:24:08.696
and intensifying. There's there's no
middle ground between those two. This

01:24:08.729 --> 01:24:14.376
consolidation and intensification in
its physical manifestation takes the

01:24:14.409 --> 01:24:22.409
form of the city designs, the
archaeology is intense, densely organized

01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:29.046
cities and in the personality and the
individual. Uh the consolidation and

01:24:29.079 --> 01:24:35.357
intensification. How does that
manifest?

01:24:35.390 --> 01:24:41.036
I think it comes in terms of an
internal revolution which shakes you tear

01:24:41.069 --> 01:24:49.069
roots in the same way. Perhaps drugs
have shaken some of us. Ah That's the

01:24:50.470 --> 01:24:58.470
only general metaphor I can I can come
up with.

01:24:58.689 --> 01:25:04.756
It comes in the coming of age of
mankind from

01:25:04.789 --> 01:25:08.956
for merely experimenting for merely
discovering

01:25:08.989 --> 01:25:15.756
how the world works, crafting more and
more power over its workings. Mhm.

01:25:15.789 --> 01:25:23.789
Uh huh Through our understanding of
nature. Mhm. It evolves to the state

01:25:25.100 --> 01:25:33.100
of an adult man, an adult humanity
which

01:25:34.189 --> 01:25:41.557
maybe has a grain of seriousness there
that it didn't have before and that

01:25:41.590 --> 01:25:45.756
and I'm not describing a state that I
have reached or salary is reached.

01:25:45.789 --> 01:25:52.956
Although you touch upon it sometimes a
sense of unity with the universe

01:25:52.989 --> 01:25:59.557
that's not pastoral. It's the sense of
unity with the universe that

01:25:59.590 --> 01:26:02.946
imbues our actions with

01:26:02.979 --> 01:26:06.347
great integrity.

01:26:06.380 --> 01:26:11.296
But there I'd clarify that and say
what this internal revolution

01:26:11.329 --> 01:26:19.329
represents is more anguish for us.
It's not a way out of our anguish.

01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:24.946
It's in a way plunging deeper into it
because

01:26:24.979 --> 01:26:30.067
and a hilarious scheme of things.
There is no total enlightenment possible

01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:35.086
until Actually evolution completes
itself until this universe which began

01:26:35.119 --> 01:26:41.246
15 billion years ago at some point in
the future reaches

01:26:41.279 --> 01:26:48.546
it's what Taylor calls it spiritual
pole, it's complete

01:26:48.579 --> 01:26:52.946
are transformation

01:26:52.979 --> 01:26:59.847
from matter from pure matter into pure
spirit.

01:26:59.880 --> 01:27:06.147
Today's man today's person isn't it is
an absolutely unprecedented and

01:27:06.180 --> 01:27:12.067
critical position along the path of
this universe. At least the section of

01:27:12.100 --> 01:27:18.946
it that we know about planet earth.
It's the only place where

01:27:18.979 --> 01:27:26.446
reflection exists, where human
consciousness exists.

01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:32.946
It really puts us on the hot seat.
Hilarious philosophy could not

01:27:32.979 --> 01:27:37.717
can barely be accepted today but it
could not have been accepted by for

01:27:37.750 --> 01:27:40.647
instance

01:27:40.680 --> 01:27:44.546
Nici one person's salary

01:27:44.579 --> 01:27:51.046
refers to as an influence influencing
factor. Um

01:27:51.079 --> 01:27:56.046
May have achieved this insight on a
personal level.

01:27:56.079 --> 01:28:00.336
Um

01:28:00.369 --> 01:28:05.217
That blew his mind. Perhaps it will
blow a lot of our minds before they

01:28:05.250 --> 01:28:09.336
come to grips with it. I think it will
blow our minds if we don't come to

01:28:09.369 --> 01:28:15.906
grips with collectively that the
responsibility that's

01:28:15.939 --> 01:28:22.937
that impinges on man at this point
can't be faced by any individual alone.

01:28:22.970 --> 01:28:26.836
 Ah Even salary

01:28:26.869 --> 01:28:32.296
are people like him. It's by the
structure of evolution. It must be a

01:28:32.329 --> 01:28:40.036
collective experience. So all our
pursuit of individual enlightenment.

01:28:40.069 --> 01:28:47.347
It's valuable. Yeah as the development
of our organism are thinking

01:28:47.380 --> 01:28:52.517
organism and I think there's no
getting around that. In fact we have to we

01:28:52.550 --> 01:29:00.550
have to take the lonely uh huh monks
position, the hermit's position. They

01:29:01.369 --> 01:29:04.237
okay.

01:29:04.270 --> 01:29:09.536
Mhm. The seeker of one's own soul
position.

01:29:09.569 --> 01:29:17.569
For a time. We must come back from
that into into collective action right.

01:29:19.170 --> 01:29:21.170
Which

01:29:21.569 --> 01:29:25.296
I don't know if we're really facing up
to that right now. at least we're

01:29:25.329 --> 01:29:28.467
not at arcosanti

01:29:28.500 --> 01:29:35.036
totally facing up to it. And I think
many communities get around it by

01:29:35.069 --> 01:29:38.237
appointing someone as

01:29:38.270 --> 01:29:44.166
Mhm. That's the voice of God and and
trusting that voice which may be a

01:29:44.199 --> 01:29:51.737
valid to some extent but and hilarious
theory and philosophy,

01:29:51.770 --> 01:29:54.437
each one of us

01:29:54.470 --> 01:30:00.166
stands in that position. It can't be
shoved off, it can be shoved off to

01:30:00.199 --> 01:30:03.996
those who are older and more
experienced, but ultimately each individual

01:30:04.029 --> 01:30:08.126
has to come to terms with the same

01:30:08.159 --> 01:30:10.326
Mhm.

01:30:10.359 --> 01:30:13.027
Responsibility

01:30:13.060 --> 01:30:19.137
for his own existence that people like
to er and salary. I have already

01:30:19.170 --> 01:30:24.847
done to some extent yet. Coming coming
to grips with it collectively. It's

01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:28.717
the thing that hasn't been done yet.
It hasn't been done by classical

01:30:28.750 --> 01:30:33.857
religion as I see it only in very in a
very ritualized way. We're not

01:30:33.890 --> 01:30:38.196
talking about rituals here. The
experience that I'm trying to create them

01:30:38.229 --> 01:30:43.826
, the people in the workshops is it's
very far from

01:30:43.859 --> 01:30:46.027
stylized

01:30:46.060 --> 01:30:49.427
uh

01:30:49.460 --> 01:30:53.227
water down

01:30:53.260 --> 01:30:58.567
experience of what life represents. I
think our position now is that we

01:30:58.600 --> 01:31:06.600
can really get we'll tr to express it
as being not only

01:31:11.340 --> 01:31:16.746
as being a kind of crossroads where
not only our own ideas but things

01:31:16.779 --> 01:31:18.927
themselves

01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:26.126
radiate from. That's the position of
us today, opening ourselves to it is

01:31:26.159 --> 01:31:31.027
that's the problem

01:31:31.060 --> 01:31:36.826
do we have to help each other? I don't
think we can do it alone

01:31:36.859 --> 01:31:40.027
or should either

01:31:40.060 --> 01:31:44.427
it's hilarious ideas

01:31:44.460 --> 01:31:47.326
represent a good

01:31:47.359 --> 01:31:51.616
a good summary of where we're at where
human consciousness is at on this

01:31:51.649 --> 01:31:55.527
earth. That is that

01:31:55.560 --> 01:32:01.767
man is just now peeking his head above
childhood and taking account of the

01:32:01.800 --> 01:32:09.800
fact that were the gods such as God
exists at all. Not a perfect god by

01:32:10.260 --> 01:32:15.977
any means. And certainly it's an
anguishing position. As I've said, this

01:32:16.010 --> 01:32:22.557
is the way in which mhm The energies
can be generated to move life on to

01:32:22.590 --> 01:32:28.607
another level. as similar to the
statement that was made uh in the late

01:32:28.640 --> 01:32:33.637
60s and the preface to the whole earth
capture that we are as gods. So we

01:32:33.670 --> 01:32:37.576
might as well get good at it. You
might as well get good at it. Except

01:32:37.609 --> 01:32:44.656
that even even saying that we are God
is so heavy that it's going to take

01:32:44.689 --> 01:32:48.927
a generation or so forgot to thinking
sure,

01:32:48.960 --> 01:32:54.817
I don't know. Do you think people are?
Mhm. Are ready to

01:32:54.850 --> 01:32:59.916
accept the responsibility for their
evolutionary destiny?

01:32:59.949 --> 01:33:03.817
I think we have no choice whatsoever.

01:33:03.850 --> 01:33:08.487
Not at all. Well, we'll do that or we
will destroy ourselves. And the

01:33:08.520 --> 01:33:12.836
evidence is growing. That is exactly
what we're doing. The only certainty

01:33:12.869 --> 01:33:20.317
that I can endorse at this point,

01:33:20.350 --> 01:33:27.517
that's a life represents the rise of
complexity through the means of

01:33:27.550 --> 01:33:30.616
gathering things into

01:33:30.649 --> 01:33:35.916
more efficiently performing bundles.

01:33:35.949 --> 01:33:39.817
Human city is not.

01:33:39.850 --> 01:33:47.097
Is an infant example of this at
present. During the time that present

01:33:47.130 --> 01:33:53.206
cities with which all of us are
familiar san Francisco in particular came

01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:57.217
into being

01:33:57.250 --> 01:34:03.916
mm And possibly through the the
intensified intellectual spiritual

01:34:03.949 --> 01:34:07.607
possibilities of those situations.

01:34:07.640 --> 01:34:10.706
We've evolved

01:34:10.739 --> 01:34:17.107
to new technologies side by side one

01:34:17.140 --> 01:34:20.206
the ability to

01:34:20.239 --> 01:34:25.836
transform matter and to control it in
much and much much more effective

01:34:25.869 --> 01:34:28.366
and

01:34:28.399 --> 01:34:35.227
and broadway's represented by perhaps
going to the moon. It's a good

01:34:35.260 --> 01:34:40.107
example

01:34:40.140 --> 01:34:46.446
to do anything we want virtually
anything we want with. Mhm. Electronic

01:34:46.479 --> 01:34:48.906
circuitry,

01:34:48.939 --> 01:34:52.006
structural technology.

01:34:52.039 --> 01:34:58.847
Ah At the same time during this period
of human history we've come into a

01:34:58.880 --> 01:35:02.597
scientific understanding

01:35:02.630 --> 01:35:09.107
of our origins on a much wider scale
than we had before. So

01:35:09.140 --> 01:35:11.506
so that

01:35:11.539 --> 01:35:16.086
men like Apollo and tired taking
advantage of this wider intellectual

01:35:16.119 --> 01:35:22.006
scope. The compression

01:35:22.039 --> 01:35:28.107
of human beings and the intensified

01:35:28.140 --> 01:35:35.687
sphere of thought that within which
great minds operate today

01:35:35.720 --> 01:35:40.107
as opposed to earlier earth

01:35:40.140 --> 01:35:43.006
as possible

01:35:43.039 --> 01:35:50.706
to achieve a synthesis between the
physical and the spiritual

01:35:50.739 --> 01:35:52.906
evolution

01:35:52.939 --> 01:35:57.706
of life. Mhm.

01:35:57.739 --> 01:36:01.996
That gives us the wisdom

01:36:02.029 --> 01:36:06.796
to apply these technologies

01:36:06.829 --> 01:36:11.996
toward the direction which life

01:36:12.029 --> 01:36:19.196
has always been seeking that is to
transform itself

01:36:19.229 --> 01:36:22.196
from matter into spirit

01:36:22.229 --> 01:36:27.397
by means of the route of complexity.

01:36:27.430 --> 01:36:31.187
Ah

01:36:31.220 --> 01:36:37.336
This has been done at any time in
human history. I believe when culture

01:36:37.369 --> 01:36:41.717
has been at its height and the things
that we regard as great have been

01:36:41.750 --> 01:36:44.097
achieved.

01:36:44.130 --> 01:36:50.796
But to do so self consciously
deliberately.

01:36:50.829 --> 01:36:53.897
There's a new idea

01:36:53.930 --> 01:36:58.196
at least on a scale of society.

01:36:58.229 --> 01:37:03.196
That is why to me, Arcosanti
represents

01:37:03.229 --> 01:37:05.796
bud

01:37:05.829 --> 01:37:13.357
an incipient bud something incredibly
new and pretentious for the human

01:37:13.390 --> 01:37:16.597
race.

01:37:16.630 --> 01:37:21.897
It's at Arcosanti that people

01:37:21.930 --> 01:37:28.496
myself, people like you

01:37:28.529 --> 01:37:35.097
Are taking into their hands these two
phenomenon, an understanding of

01:37:35.130 --> 01:37:41.647
how life has come to be, what it is,
what it's striving for the rise of

01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:45.897
the spirit in this universe

01:37:45.930 --> 01:37:53.496
and and our intellectual powers to
understand and manipulate matter

01:37:53.529 --> 01:38:01.529
deliberately, which in the past has
has been done

01:38:01.720 --> 01:38:04.987
mainly as a means of survival.

01:38:05.020 --> 01:38:10.876
Arkansas represents a reversal of
priorities in terms of design and I

01:38:10.909 --> 01:38:16.027
think we also represent a reversal of
priorities in terms of design. Human

01:38:16.060 --> 01:38:24.060
beings have changed the orientation of
life from one

01:38:25.020 --> 01:38:28.887
in which chance

01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:32.387
competition for space,

01:38:32.420 --> 01:38:36.756
survival of the fittest in physical
terms have determined the design of

01:38:36.789 --> 01:38:42.987
organisms into it a new level in which

01:38:43.020 --> 01:38:47.576
the outcome of those chances and those
design changes. That is human

01:38:47.609 --> 01:38:52.187
thought has taken hold

01:38:52.220 --> 01:38:56.256
of life locally

01:38:56.289 --> 01:39:04.187
and began to transform it. So the city
as it presently exists

01:39:04.220 --> 01:39:07.887
as a machine created

01:39:07.920 --> 01:39:12.987
for the economic reasons of survival

01:39:13.020 --> 01:39:18.506
at its deepest level. To be human, to
be analogous to what we are in

01:39:18.539 --> 01:39:21.487
nature, that is

01:39:21.520 --> 01:39:26.687
an organism in which the spirit

01:39:26.720 --> 01:39:30.086
is a predominating factory.

01:39:30.119 --> 01:39:33.786
The city must be reorganized

01:39:33.819 --> 01:39:39.187
along the priorities

01:39:39.220 --> 01:39:42.786
of achieving it.

01:39:42.819 --> 01:39:47.206
A human ecology. What salary refers to
as a human ecology. That is an

01:39:47.239 --> 01:39:54.987
environment in which thought the
interaction of minds and ideas.

01:39:55.020 --> 01:40:00.717
It's facilitated as well as

01:40:00.750 --> 01:40:08.750
and effectively by the physical
infrastructure which we all must operate

01:40:10.109 --> 01:40:14.267
in that Arcosanti is unique and in
that lies our salvation in the sense

01:40:14.300 --> 01:40:16.277
that

01:40:16.310 --> 01:40:18.977
we must

01:40:19.010 --> 01:40:23.177
keep that priority.

01:40:23.210 --> 01:40:28.977
If we're to avoid sinking into having
our colleges become what many people

01:40:29.010 --> 01:40:32.376
fear. Ah

01:40:32.409 --> 01:40:40.409
the ultimate expression of statism of
centralized control

01:40:42.609 --> 01:40:47.336
of all the things, incipient an
industrial culture as a exists now without

01:40:47.369 --> 01:40:54.677
a head, without a soul in many ways,
blindly

01:40:54.710 --> 01:40:59.677
grasping at more and more power,

01:40:59.710 --> 01:41:03.937
if human evolution has reached a state
in which we can consciously take

01:41:03.970 --> 01:41:09.977
control of it, then there's not only
there's not only hope for the earth,

01:41:10.010 --> 01:41:12.277
but

01:41:12.310 --> 01:41:15.166
there is the hope of something more
than has ever existed on the earth.

01:41:15.199 --> 01:41:20.937
And that that is what Arcosanti
represents to me the beginning of that, we

01:41:20.970 --> 01:41:23.076
are privileged

01:41:23.109 --> 01:41:29.076
all of us to be at it at an incredibly
potent staged

01:41:29.109 --> 01:41:33.267
and the movement of life in the world,

01:41:33.300 --> 01:41:35.977
There will only be one

01:41:36.010 --> 01:41:41.177
time in the history of this planet
when

01:41:41.210 --> 01:41:44.177
life

01:41:44.210 --> 01:41:49.156
deliberately takes hold of itself on
the scale

01:41:49.189 --> 01:41:52.777
of collective human minds

01:41:52.810 --> 01:41:59.847
and builds more complexity, more
connection, more possibility for love.

01:41:59.880 --> 01:42:04.916
That's what it's the best way I could
describe it into itself one first

01:42:04.949 --> 01:42:12.949
time, I think Carcassonne is that that
time and therefore

01:42:13.500 --> 01:42:17.246
the incredible amount of hassles that
go into building it are really

01:42:17.279 --> 01:42:21.467
meaningless when you consider it in
those terms, looking ahead if you

01:42:21.500 --> 01:42:29.387
could to that thing which is in your
mind that is being created here, what

01:42:29.420 --> 01:42:37.420
do you feel that that would be like,

01:42:39.199 --> 01:42:44.616
I don't think we have anything to
refer to historically? Uh huh. That

01:42:44.649 --> 01:42:49.767
could convey the power of it. Except

01:42:49.800 --> 01:42:54.677
let me ask if you're in love, you're
in love with someone. Uh Mhm. That

01:42:54.710 --> 01:43:02.710
sounds sounds kind of weird, that's
the way it seems to me. Yeah,

01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:10.666
we could have a society in which more
people would be in love.

01:43:10.699 --> 01:43:16.166
That's what I'm looking for.

01:43:16.199 --> 01:43:22.086
But the beauty of the beauty of
arcosanti is also the danger. We don't

01:43:22.119 --> 01:43:26.576
know what will be there. We don't know
and there's no way to even begin to

01:43:26.609 --> 01:43:29.567
predict.

01:43:29.600 --> 01:43:34.397
It's a change for me, the change that
we're embarked on is the change of

01:43:34.430 --> 01:43:41.647
the magnitude of reflection coming
into existence 3,000,003 million years

01:43:41.680 --> 01:43:43.866
ago.

01:43:43.899 --> 01:43:49.267
That's what the integration of many
minds

01:43:49.300 --> 01:43:54.967
really integrating. Not just

01:43:55.000 --> 01:44:01.557
an occasional glimpse of connection
but an organic connection between us

01:44:01.590 --> 01:44:09.590
which is only incipient and and very,
very fragile and

01:44:09.890 --> 01:44:14.987
unrealized at this point. Any time
that we've experienced that on an

01:44:15.020 --> 01:44:19.876
individual level between two people
that's a glimpse but we're after on a

01:44:19.909 --> 01:44:24.317
societal level, do you expect that
that will be achieved in your lifetime

01:44:24.350 --> 01:44:29.456
?

01:44:29.489 --> 01:44:37.489
I expect that will have taken the
first step in that direction

01:44:39.180 --> 01:44:42.177
and I'm convinced that it will be
achieved, whether it's in my lifetime or

01:44:42.210 --> 01:44:45.557
not,

01:44:45.590 --> 01:44:52.756
but I'm glad and scared to death that

01:44:52.789 --> 01:44:57.796
that where the generation is going to
embark on that for the first time.

01:44:57.829 --> 01:45:05.829
It's just this is something totally
new in a lot of ways

01:45:07.590 --> 01:45:10.116
and it's

01:45:10.149 --> 01:45:15.557
that's where we're at as a generation
too though. I mean all of us who

01:45:15.590 --> 01:45:23.590
for whatever reason were drawn into
any experimentation at all. Uh huh.

01:45:23.590 --> 01:45:30.076
They know in their hearts that oh
being alive, that's what being alive is

01:45:30.109 --> 01:45:36.897
is for it's just that that chance that
risk the challenge, the challenge

01:45:36.930 --> 01:45:44.076
above all that that we have to keep
engaging ourselves with and the

01:45:44.109 --> 01:45:50.336
challenge on this earth right now.
Yes,

01:45:50.369 --> 01:45:55.196
as crazy as it might sound is that is
the construction of that thing out

01:45:55.229 --> 01:46:02.647
there and that may say in Central
Arizona,

01:46:02.680 --> 01:46:07.847
he can be fully alive

01:46:07.880 --> 01:46:15.880
by only by engaging yourself in the
greatest challenge open to our

01:46:16.119 --> 01:46:21.847
particular evolutionary moment. That's
something that's not for everybody

01:46:21.880 --> 01:46:28.557
might not even be for me ultimately,
but but it's there, it's available

01:46:28.590 --> 01:46:36.546
and if we don't get the best minds
involved in it. Yeah,

01:46:36.579 --> 01:46:44.579
it may be a chance that doesn't come
again.

01:46:44.689 --> 01:46:49.017
Well, you've been involved with this
work for the last five years of your

01:46:49.050 --> 01:46:54.046
life to work at Arcosanti continues

01:46:54.079 --> 01:47:00.826
the energies of that was hilarious.
And the people that he has been able

01:47:00.859 --> 01:47:08.859
to bring around him seems to continue
year after year. Mhm. Growing and

01:47:09.109 --> 01:47:13.647
reaching into the public imagination
and

01:47:13.680 --> 01:47:20.506
all I can say is I really wish you all
the fruits of the intense work that

01:47:20.539 --> 01:47:24.866
you're doing both out there on that
mesa in Central Arizona and on

01:47:24.899 --> 01:47:31.347
yourselves in the process of
transformation.

01:47:31.380 --> 01:47:34.647
Thank you.

01:47:34.680 --> 01:47:42.680
Mhm.

01:47:46.979 --> 01:47:53.996
You've been listening to Stephen Hill.
Mm and Jack Blackwell, director of

01:47:54.029 --> 01:48:02.029
educational programs at Arcosanti
builder Dreamer,

01:48:02.069 --> 01:48:05.536
walking together

01:48:05.569 --> 01:48:11.836
toward the vision of a more perfect
future.

01:48:11.869 --> 01:48:15.937
If you'd like information about
Arcosanti,

01:48:15.970 --> 01:48:21.067
the workshop programs which happened
every six weeks, which entailed

01:48:21.100 --> 01:48:26.137
construction work discussions with
paolo Soleri,

01:48:26.170 --> 01:48:30.937
four day seminars and living on the
site

01:48:30.970 --> 01:48:36.836
or events that happened on the equinox
ists and solstices

01:48:36.869 --> 01:48:40.836
or the arts festival, which happens in
the fall.

01:48:40.869 --> 01:48:48.237
You can write to the Coast santa
Foundation. That's C O S A N. T. I

01:48:48.270 --> 01:48:53.437
Foundation 6433

01:48:53.470 --> 01:49:01.470
Doubletree Road Scottsdale Arizona
85253.

01:49:07.569 --> 01:49:13.437
So many topics tonight. Such promise
for

01:49:13.470 --> 01:49:21.470
a new vision, A bright future,

01:49:22.369 --> 01:49:25.437
all brought to you by

01:49:25.470 --> 01:49:28.036
new dimensions.

01:49:28.069 --> 01:49:33.336
Mhm. We want to thank you for
listening

01:49:33.369 --> 01:49:37.637
for being with us

01:49:37.670 --> 01:49:45.137
for sharing the faith in the future.

01:49:45.170 --> 01:49:53.170
Mhm. This is KQED FM SAn Francisco.

01:49:53.369 --> 01:49:55.609
Good night.