and not only is that we need activities in interiors, production of
furnitures and so on and that's something that we might try to get into
and then after we have served the town we would have this industry that
could go for other places. Mhm I think those who said they could be a very
good source of income and then we have the visitors and in the media, I
would like to develop and the media is the idea that we tend to again to
segregate the information from the source of information and from the
people that received information and so an attempt to take the media's and
reintegrate them in in the community and in the land on climate and so on
and we're beginning to do that right now with the festivals and so on. So
that could be a very important source of revenues. Economic.
Oh, the first little green house that would be a center in India for a
public park that we have some kind of contact going on with.
Yeah, no, we would do only and supervision.
Mhm
probably reinforced concrete. Yes. Well, we would have to consider steel
also that and the city cost
you said assistance.
Oh, I don't foresee, I don't know what kind of system, frankly. No, we
don't know. We don't know because number one is going to be a few years in
the future. Number two. Mhm things there are things that you can
anticipate and summon structure does think that possibly to anticipate too
much and structure too much might be dangerous. So you might, you might,
you might fall a certain notion and then find out that the notion was
wrong. And one of those fields is politics, afraid. So there are many
examples of different kinds of approaches and we would try to look into
them and see
well I do. There are there are in the they have political implications.
But there are mainly,
let's say like notions, one is that the discouraging or not discouraging
the unimportance of ownership that we would like to to suggest that
doesn't mean eliminate ownership. That it means that perhaps ownership can
be much less uh important in our own lives. The early is what I call
relative poverty, which is now a necessity since we are poor anyhow. And
that is an attempt to remain under the
minimum wage salary. So all of us, it's under that kind of an umbrella.
Now 2 50. Uh huh Germany's it's the use in a sense of yeah, lentils Or
pools of things. So instead of having 10,000 objects, you may have only
1000 objects in, you know, the categories of things from domestic to
industrial, that we might be involved.
Mm
You know, water is going to be one of the critical elements. So we we have
to try to make use of it more than once.
So domestic water would be recycled. Probably,
maybe you want to go on with that. Yeah,
our people.
Uh, but the difference is that I don't believe in Utopia.
Let me try to explain what I mean. I do not believe that perfection is
around the corner now I believe that I can come up with anything perfect
or any born anyone that works there. So we were we believe that an effort
has to be put in in the direction of a more coherent situation of us,
whether we ourselves and with the the ecological system. But with it very
clear knowledge that's going to be a very long process. And by long I
don't mean few generations. I mean thousands of generations. You know that
the diagram I'm taking a diagram very seriously. So that's why Utopia is a
fantasy that I'm not instantly at all. Uh huh. That doesn't mean that
we're going to succeed because we are not utopian. But it means that we do
not believe in paradise on this earth, which is going to be ready for our
Children's paradises. Somebody that was in the past and basically it was
an imagination that we have in the past. But we have to build is something
quite different. But that's not. It's involved in the idea of of a
theological structure which is quite different from the from the catholic
or protestant structure.
Well, that depends so much on what kind of membrane an envelope you put
around the body. So if your house is well insulated, that's what that's
what you're after.
Okay, well that that's what I mean. You a certain amount of energy
produced by your body. So you keep it in or you let it out. So if you rent
it out, you lose it. If you keep it in, you're going to be able to make
use of it. So you can recycle it one way or the other. But basically is
that uh you insulate your hitters that is policed by you within the the
environment that you're using an interior environment.
No.
Mhm. Uh uh No. Self sufficiency is in many ways. It's an illusion. It's a
dangerous illusion. What you like to to project is that kind of reliance?
Self reliance. Which tells you that you can barter with your neighbors,
whatever you cannot do, which is what happens naturally. So uh if self
sufficient means self reliance, it's fine. If suspicion means that you
seal off the community and the community can be anywhere because it
doesn't have to depend on anything else, then I would say no. That's an
illusion. It's Utopia again.
So you specialize in a few or many activities and those activities are
giving you the means to go out and buy or barter other things that you are
not doing.
And since every one of us needs thousands of items, we know very well that
nobody can do all those items well within its own daily activities
mm
you are Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah. You you have to make a distinction there, which is the difference
between a prototype and a production, the normal production cycle. We are
we're working with the prototype and as such, many of those objections or
those things are irrelevant. It you know, you could imagine of
a dictator
from Iran coming in and say I'm going to finance finance the prototype.
And you have to decide if you want to accept this kind of financing. And
one reason to accept could be that you're trying to develop a prototype
that then could be could be made available for the market. And that goes
for other things like why there and not here? Why three instead of 5000 or
20,000? Uh, why go about it, building it this way and so on. Those are
irrelevant questions when you see the process for what it is. Which is
trying to trigger a much larger process. So what we're doing is model of
overeating or of a catalyst idea then produce a marketable object at this
point. The market comes later and you might to invest in uh, in the market
planning as much as you invest in the prototype. Mm And maybe more.
Huh?
Yeah.
Well, the we tend to believe this is very new. But it's very old. No, a
few thousands of years old. This idea that people are clustering
associating and working together. That's a typical characteristic of the
human species. So in a way Los Angeles is the strange one not what we are
trying to do and as such. it is a strange one because it's it's very young
, only two or three generations and it's a very tiny part of the human
family. So it's an exception and it's a very limited exception of that.
What we're trying to do is to carry on the process as it's been
established and developed for thousands of years and passes the urban
condition.
And that doesn't mean that we have all the answers. We have hardly any
answer. But that's where we have to work at since we have so many, so few
answers were to work at it even other.
But but basically it comes back to the to this notion of what life is it
scattering is isolation is um
remoteness is all those things. It's perhaps the opposite. It's gathering
it's complex. Ification is interdependent and so on. And once we make up
your mind we should be coherent with it. But we cannot say its complexity
and then say in Los Angeles is the consequence if it is complexity, Los
Angeles is a degeneration of the process.
Well, new york but in new york somehow it has the characteristic of the
gigantic of the wasteful on the
the thing that cannot work because the technologies are not appropriate
and so on.
Yeah.
Oh. Mhm.
I haven't seen a primal arcosanti is that we don't have what we are
seeking. So it's difficult to demonstrate what what it would be once you
don't have it. So that's the main problem, we are there because we believe
that the the function of the city is a fundamental function, but we are in
the wilderness.
That's why you really have to, you have to be future oriented in order to
be there. Otherwise you don't make any sense. It's a sacrificial condition
and that demands demands quite a bit. It's a cave to be there six weeks or
six months And enjoyed experience. Another thing is to be there six or 7
or 10 years knowing that you would like to go much faster and you cannot
do it and knowing that all the things you believe in are not existent.
Yeah,
Well, but you if you're in a corner of 50th and uh and I don't know
husband. I'm just saying the same thing. It's just that the one you see it
because it's up to you don't, you don't see because it's done. But I mean
that's the, that's the logical. That is it's minimal. So but the thing is
to see what you might gain by having that, which is not really that it's a
, it's a volume as against having that, then you begin to have options and
you might want to decide. But the idea that you are free because you live
in phoenix. It's totally, it's a nonsense. It's absolute nonsense. We are
caused by the phoenix grid. And if you were older or old and where you are
poor, you will find out that phoenix kills you. So there is no freedom
there. I mean, there's a very limited freedom. So we try to find out bring
in audio problems, environment pollution, resources, energy segregation,
and so on and see where the answer might be focusing and they're not
focusing on phoenix. They're focusing on something very different.
The things that were very willing to accept any kind of coercion which
comes with you. So, I'm born in that kind of corrosion. So I accepted we
had a not willing to investigate the possibility of having limitations of
freedom that my might produce greater freedom in totality because they
have novelty or because we're not used to them or because they need they
need work experimentation
and positive experimentation has failed. Sure,
But we don't we don't think of Nothing of investing three or 4 billions of
dollars in failing an aircraft so that we find out how the craft aircraft
could fail. But we're not willing to invest $1 million dollars in a open
expo yet to deliver. Well, that's the most complex problem we're faced
with is not the airplane Mr Urban Commission. So there is a total,
irrational way of looking at things, appointment.
Mhm
We're done and very, very, very, very quickly unless you go thousands of
feet, you stay within 30 40 50 maybe 100 floors. You're not at every 10 ft
, You have a landscape practically speaking. So that's that's where the
efficiency comes in. And naturally, if it was, that wasn't true, we would
not be three dimensional, we would be flat. So humanity which would be
like a leaf. But we cannot do it because to contain what we have in a flat
area for me, for my being, I would need probably campus
in order to do what I'm doing. So I am a campus to campus or you may see
immediately the, the total irrelevance of that approach. The approach is
three dimensional,
20 Stories, 50 Stories.
Mhm Yeah, well they're not miles. There are one mile and so on that there
is you're confusing the presentation of a counselor that wants to show the
possibilities with the actual performance.
So that's why I was saying those are, those are
symbols, those are abstractions and so on. That doesn't mean that
eventually we might, we might not do that because of the materials, but
you don't need to go any more than a few dozens of stores to have a three
dimensional system. But but I mean you got what I mean, that you need only
use it in bedroom to have performances going on while you need hundreds of
feet high performance is going on. And naturally uh
the development of life showed that very clearly the
vegetable kingdom could not go beyond a certain kind of conscious of, of
sensitivity. And the reason the fundamental reason probably was because
the vegetable kingdom has to spread out itself in order to capture the
energy of the sun. So you needed the next step which was the folding of
that system in a tray dimensional system in order to produce eventually
sensitivity, consciousness of consciousness and eventually freedom. But
now now if we decided we go back to the vegetable then we have to get to
examine our conscience and decide if this is honest. Yeah.
No
solar.
Yeah. How
well. Hold on. Okay we are. We're working with the Environmental research
center in Tucson at the university. They are our consultant
and they have been given us a guidelines for the development of India. And
they seem to be quite exciting excited about the process because it seems
to be working quite well
I believe. Yeah. Mhm.
Everything continues one way or the earth.
No, I haven't.
The question is uh as the population increases, how those structure adapt
up to a point I would be on the point they would have to make a new
development which again, it's very organic. You if you can see the whole
thing
but there's a difference between the the inner life of a system and the
dimension that this system can develop into. And as we know in any kind of
biological system dimensions. It's very fundamental. You cannot have an
elephant which is 1/5 of the size will have a man which is 20 times the
size of a normal person. But what you have is the reproduction only Only
in very elementary societies, you can have something that can go on
endlessly. One example is the coral that does our societies, which are
very mhm LTD in social terms, and naturally, they don't have any culture.