the graduate plus of energy and environment theory um from a shoe. And
we're speaking with paolo Soleri
about his concepts related to energy and environment. And I suppose that
may be a good place to start Is
from your point of view. How would you define environment?
Right?
Mm hmm.
But it depends on how far off reach with major connections. Maybe we
should just start from an individual point of view and then go as far a
field as our global responsibilities
should take us.
Uh the immediate environment which is it starts with your clothing and
home
social. Oh
connections what what terrorist is
are material dependent as well Really cycles of life,
Economic, social, political, cultural, religious.
But that's what the beyond the immediate
So
you can extend your voters show them
nation all the species, all those pieces the world and the cosmos.
Oh and I suppose we ought before taking that any further option identify
how you would describe environment choosing energy mm particularly as it
relates to the environment definition.
It's a risk of that element which is always present is always being
whenever the week we act and since Caroline we constantly so being arrived
to the consumers. Uh huh.
And if we can't forget that. So the mystical energy speaks in in terms of
large chunks of it. I love what I need specifically what uh cooking a meal
morning car
getting something implemented. Just a biological existence. We have this
energy. So to paraphrase you equate it with being alive
and with what is that an energy means a lot. Love needs energy without
energy. There is no facility of blood. So it's kind of the stables which
we just why do you not associated with liveliness? And it seemed like the
quality of energy would have to do with the quality of life. And margins
you know if you should try to cause myself as the object. When you find
out that basically alive, let's go. I'm optimistic
person. So the cosmos
numbering system, they would sell energetic system. Mm Believe this car
which is not alive. You will have a space liveliness which are making use
after an incident. Shoes. Yeah, strategies fundamentally alone. Leaving.
There is a tiny particles which are agents by the meeting came over to
exist. Probably
transform.
Uh huh. You know the class is composed primarily of architects and
engineers. Yeah. You Yeah at least at the beginning as an architect. I
wonder if we could talk about in general terms about professional
responsibilities particularly as it relates to brought our own developed
talents on.
Okay, for instance without how do you see your
responsibilities or ambitions in relationship to energy?
We'll try to read two pages. It's gonna be quick
got.
Mhm
Well let's accept it
here.
Oh
That this was a statement that has to be contained within five minutes. It
was a description of a meeting
san Francisco for what he called in january. The revolutions and so we
have five minutes. Each speaker respect. Not everyone good. Would you like
to discuss it after each paragraph? That be the way to ensure?
Well, the first paragraph is a single sentence because of the birth of
consciousness within a quite possibly meaningless universe. And because
consciousness moves mindful of values, reality might now be seeking and
pursuing meaning.
You're implying there. But there's something very timely.
But by timely, I mean this service system talk to manage abuse the parents
of conscious. Mhm. But you see that as being very
much of the present at that time span.
My fundamental hypothesis is that reality equipped with consciousness is
attempting to create its own semen. This reverses theological thinking,
head to toe that which religion places at the origin deceived the divine
power. The fountain is seen at the end. Instead, Kozma genesis, as the
word says, is the creation of genes the ultimate genes of the cosmos. In
this case such process entails the total consumption of the media
available. The physical cosmos itself. Red at the final juncture of
consummation. The cosmos would replay himself completely namely reservoir
correction as any good seed replace itself in the organism it contains.
I am not peddling the truth. I am presenting an hypothesis Why and why one
such as this? If I had more time, I would follow this line of reasoning if
it is a fact that equity justice, truth, beauty and grace are the real
longing of conscious life. That this eschatological hypothesis might be
the only one truth truth. The only nun true to such long. And if this were
to be proven then the imperative of consciousness clearly would be the
dedication Phil. And unwavering to the development of this ultimate c this
divine occasion. Well, terrible unconventional.
According to this hypothesis, truth does not exist. It is in the process
of being creative. The same is true of justice, perfection, Beauty and
grace. The embryonic stage of all these and present explains the existence
of injustice, score suffering, disgrace and ugliness.
The human existential deliver is the discrepancy between anticipation and
the context in which we live in at we dream of perfection and we get
imperfection. We dream of justice and we experience inequality. We dream
of grace and we live in squalor
before I go any further. Maybe you discussed this as a second page. Well
you're mhm concept of sort of turning physiological process head to toe.
Um
you don't describe beginnings. You're only describing endings or
conclusions
as far as you've got.
Well that's very short. Mm mm hmm. Hello. The assumption is that they are
not
My assumption is that the beginning is not divine. It's a very mass.
Energy barbour county. So the reason guideline divine guidance. Mhm cheers.
Mhm. Existence. That's true to to the Kozma genesis,
divinity can be a consequence of the genesis, Not a they cause a prima
donna also what the religious mind sees at the beginning. I postulated at
the end.
Mm hmm. The capacity of the human mind to anticipate and
definitely seems to be designed.
But in terms of beginnings you don't have the big bang to be bang. But
it's a pretty it's very dirty. It's a very dull bank probably because it's
only with last time
massive changes based on,
okay, so in that sense I'm against the notion of animistic, I'm gonna go
the universe is creating itself into a major organ musical system, but not
because it was such as the original because it might become such and early
so adamant he had no,
but I don't know, symbols of consciousness appearing in the evolutionary
process.
And the grass is a fantasy which refunds because it's a personal, it's
fine. Well, except that according to your player proposal, it does
represent a goal. Not really something pretty.
That's what you call your own legacy.
Which is a
in a way that is a genetic pattern which contains all the past, which is
revolutionary. Mhm spoke to that from that point of view that it's very
skeptical. It tends to close back on itself itself in the same way that
you identify the sea recreate
what you find at the end of a message, which is the conclusion of the
consumption of the media beginning with the media, the physical universe.
You end up with a message and the gap between the two evolutionary
process
in time. Who is there? That parameter which is needed in order to develop
this transformation probably going to the message. I'm sort of consumption.
Is this trying to democracies?
Yeah.
Since you have a conceptual town at the end of everything present, which
has been before. So that's the notion of the selection
posted. Oh Mhm uh well continue. The amount of truth represented by the
past is known in very italian parcels even more distressing. The bulk of
truth does not yet exist because it is sturbin that which does not exist
in the future. Fretful, we know but we do not know past and we also know
that we cannot know in the future. And so since the resolution of the
cosmic puzzle, he's in the remoteness of a distant and far from granted
future anguish is in the very nature of conscious life. In the absurd case
that we should have access to knowledge, capital, play, creation would
start life would be extinguished time, Name change put in this is a very
we need not waste time on the truth might come about through the self
recreational process. Therefore time will be concerned
when this cosmo genesis is concluded, the cosmos will have achieved the
creation of its own seed because time will be no more. It will be the seed
of resurrection. This is the total recall of the evolutionary process of
cosmo genesis. The consequence the consequence of this conclusion will be
justice, Beauty, embrace and film because of the retroactive nature of the
omega psi. Then with timeless every occasion will be found. Every occasion
will have found its absolute fitness within the totality as well as the
radiant and living knowledge of its own value. This is a scandal
explanation of my eschatological hypothesis.
In building the small town of Arcosanti, in Central Arizona, we are trying
to be congruent with that hypothesis so as to add an infanticidal brick to
the construction creation of the ultimate seed. In other words, we are
pursuing the urban effect because it is the most comprehensive process by
which truth, justice. Congruence and beauty can be sought. The reason is
simple cosmo genesis is a process of complex ification profound beyond the
capacity of the most furthered imagination. The urban mode is the
prototypical structure for fostering such a process.
The urban effect is not a human invention. It is very common means by
which life itself grows about existing. Persevering reproducing and
developing evolution is the urban effect imposed upon nonlife by life and
in position by the exception. Life upon the rule, non life based on the
urban effect. But congruent with its nature. Excuse me, based on the urban
effect. And then grilled with its nature. We are trying to establish a
better environmental coherence, a better use of the resources of the sun.
We are trying to reduce isolation, illumination, segregation, Greed,
intolerance and prejudice. We are battling the mediocrity of the society.
Help out on consumerism.
We hope you want to get to know the project. The task is enormous and the
need and the help is needed.
Did you discuss this then after you presented, you didn't tell because
it's like a
well did anyone discuss it? Not uncommon.
I prefer the comments uh two and the Austin like Shrek
now we got we got the point because debating some of it's going to be So
this service was since they had some notion about it I think so hard to
find what that was. Okay
and the common. Mhm Well there were other speakers presenting other papers
was what I wonder whether there was any inroads between some of those
presentations in this. I don't know but I'm not sure there was some
development. Total speakers
I watched maybe 1000
and I felt that some of those Yeah. Waters
and then I think they're going to appear all in the next issue. Oh
Mhm
Yeah. Uh huh In this paper you mentioned are preserved
and identify it as being
kind of respect towards this evolutionary process. Party. You broke define
in here
when you identify evolutionary processes and cosmo genesis. Um Ladies,
you'd like to say something about the uh huh whatever the hidden pattern
is of this kind of home revolution revolutionary process.
Uh huh But mainly is
the idea that consciousness it's a little level and
government. Well we all do. Yeah, carrier
consciousness not please resources.
That consciousness feels very very basically with the cost of time.
We make time. In fact we produce something which is different. We make
duration. The very fact of existence. Yeah, becoming huh. In this person
existing in becoming deals
hold your many kilometers with
aspect of complexity. The moral consciousness is present and a lot of
complexities present.
But we can make some kind of look where complexity and consciousness and
self consciousness
can I please? And consciousness is an interesting complexity. So yeah, so
many kilometers which are making reality and conflict context feels very
crucial. Ones who gives a deal. We were time you're studying us. There's
nothing else for the simplicity of the gravity. Anticipating ourselves
internally complexity. Beginning
so whenever we think in terms of doing and performing you better Keep in
Mind This one which I think is a Yeah. And that is not a simple that we
are seeking but it's a complex, complex,
intense. My life results
more and more. We're going to move into
a little do a quick tested this
Somalia and I would suggest it would be very, very, very funny. This
evolution came out with criminals eventually experience
mostly conflicts machine. For the sake of simplicity. The motion to have
this kind of phenomenon which is making Mansour complex because in that
direction he is over graced exist. You know, for example, if you represent
we're through then we would be Yeah, but I was okay. The very simple
organism would be closer to me
God would be a very simple
or something just happened that we were thinking in terms of divinity
takes or something infinitely
just translate that to a very class devil that implies
in terms of the design of building evidence which will be increasingly
complex. The rest of the urban effect
as a term is that kind of
process
which this complex education reality comes about moving. We want even more
substantial because you're not dealing with individuals in the association
of individuals
in a world and exponential phenomenon. Local classification which appears.
So the community
turns out to be one of those manifestations of this complexity
in florida organized opposition. I don't know
just what you
and then you have to expect. It's that kind of a conditional situation
where
whatever
consciousness. Mm hmm. Mhm intensity and sensitivity and all those things
are and eventually going to be exponentially developed.
That's the importance of the city. What does uh as an instrument for
economic development? Russia as an instrument of control, people and
things that as an instrument for transcendence.
And we forget, I think we don't know what we're doing in the cities.
Buildings of what environment most of the time buildings are part of the
organic. So there are particles fragments, fish, urbanism and so taking to
develop itself performance.
But just to make an argument from this that this implies that mhm The
larger and more complex city is potentially further along the evolutionary
birds. Yeah. The problem here, what the problem we have is that we get
mixed up between complex and complicated
with the complicated, very often is not very complex. That is complicated
because complexity
as you get
developed
and technology is a very good example. Technology is
Uh huh. A very simple mind
way of affirming mm
the importance for acting upon them. But it's not acting of a biological
position which is a very subtle one. Is an action, a political position
which is a very segregation. Well, so technology, it's a super mind in
this solve problems as they do in a cage in seven.
And it's been effective in this. We didn't that reference. But
unfortunately, it's a family which is very limited limited. So whenever we
consign ourselves technology or technology be very endangered. Whitening
complexity into
into complicated nous. To the complicated. Could you be more specific in
terms of giving us an illustration of the difference between complexity,
complicated nous. Well, you take a cat.
Yeah, you're in the presence of a very complex and um you take a summary
in your presence are very complicated,
propelled social convention, terribly subtle
cyclist, cyclist, cyclist, closer journalist is artery and hotel
to reproduce itself. Opening cycles and never closing them. So
but in effect that kind of discrimination could be made about any
comparison. Uh Mr objects like cats versus man made objects such as simple
obviously. So then the question is, are we if there is any reasonable
foundation for us to be all father to be makers or should we retreat into
ourselves and really made
biologically.
You need to to the animal to the animal
controlling. My notion is not my nose. two ways. It's not country
technology. It's only an extension about technology since its very
primitive and very young still renovation soviet to deal with it.
Precaution in order open mindedness,
college and distinguishing between what's feasible and this result which
celeb central with Caroline.
Well, I'm not in the market and then we decide what to do
problem. Can you identify any yeah. Environment designed environments
which which you would admire in terms of their complexity and I'm sure. Mm
hmm.
Four. Okay.
Any any settlement that has been performing for generations
probably represents. I'm a very good example,
complexity. Social point forward. Economic cultural. Mhm.
But as any other kind of and man made things, it's imperfect me. Too.
Different tile.
Okay. You can make a little list but from that point of view then a new
settlement such as our cousin. Yeah. Has
tremendous handicaps. Yeah. But the most grossest one is the lack of time.
Mhm. The fact that it is new.
Yeah. At the same time since we're engaged in the transformation of what
exists. We have tried to find guidelines. So that some of the stuff
relations my offer immortality options and the true reject access to
options. It's a very democratic.
So when the society has the means of experimenting and I think it becomes
an imperative side words we got this came from because that's the only way
language going to develop your option.
Now. Since we're very clear about the evils for the human settlement of
this is in physical terms,
it should be easy enough to try to,
to remain the most
fuels
By incorporating one system
changes to each other. Each other.
Yeah. In no case. Yeah. Five or six.
Well, he's been monumentally better. The only 30 years of resources
including energy.
No one is there. Well, mhm. Roast in Britain. The probability of the most
important. You see. Congratulations.
Maybe we should talk a little bit more of a your actual experiment in a
large environment namely artisan
and gear premise that
that the funding comes first, that hardware is necessary before you get to
perform.
Do you think that the place is mature enough yet to be able to identify
any distinction about life there versus somewhere else? Mm. No, uh,
aspects on which in a way
necessary. You're trying to make a picture have succeeded. But one aspect
is that the means are limited. So I by necessity we have to be.
And that's in the session which is important for
inside I believe that what we're doing. Mm hmm. The aspect of value might
be one of the most important contributions we might be making if we get to
a point where we can tell ourselves upwards the like and requite would we
don't. So consumers beach, you got it.
It's a product of ourselves which which which we are in. We are in in this
avalanche of consumerism. So we are the ones that have to change
our behavior public. And it's not to prove that you never had the
collection
serious society that should change.
Um How how did you decide? Oh well you've identified one quality. The
possibility the forbidden to make it might become
by word wondering if you could generalize in any other way trip. An
archaeological standard might be terms of human life. Mhm.
An example would be that instead of
developing a rich individual family group,
all those things that we know, we think of this another respect, a good
life rearranging
the physical. We might find out that many of the things that we think are
indispensable. Not only company is possible, but there are obstacles
yourself. Mhm.
For example here
keeping the final environment becomes useless. We get about 200 waste.
Oh
her own trouble. That's been done for most of man's life. Yeah. At that
time the ability to work and we have you know that we have ability to
transform.
Let's see reality. Unfortunately, real wasting our capacity
sandwich sensitive.
Just taking one step further than the idea of that modern life has given
us a lot of options that you never, ever. Oh we never had before. Uh huh.
Don't these options change the the potentials in relationship to urban
effect
for instance Montfort in the city in history tries to project the future,
which is
is very decentralized, which is heavily dependent in terms of energy on
the electrical grid and which is dependent for communications on
television and telephone variance. Isn't it strange that no food comes
over here
since his humanist. It needed to believe that great. The personal contact
, the remote contact to thomas.
Mhm.
We keep telling ourselves that this city is becoming less and less
important because we can you can move ideas.
But that that's that's something when she refers to only a small part of
what it means. It doesn't refer
you ever to the most important part of what that means that which is
personal contact and the actual performances. Yeah. So I cannot I cannot
have a media by television. You know, like surreal encounter with home.
But what we find to make babies. No worries. Moving forward. Television
set. Mm hmm.
And it definitely is not the whole support system which is feeding demon
sitting well with you. Again, it will be done to Table two Vibration,
vibration their purpose for many many generations.
Circle beneath of environment, which is a movie for a substantial.
Mhm is not diminished by the fact that we have you're trying to do
that was going to be and answers. Mhm. Doing that in my generation is
experienced. But definitely no way
part of the sexual learning knowledge. Communication, no sense of
experience.
Mhm So the concept of the decentralized,
post industrial world for you would be a step backward. It depends what we
mean by decentralized. If we say that it's not doesn't make sense for the
continent. Like you don't have to have to anonymous centers of life like
the eastern seaboard and Western support and Chicago areas so that they
get that was the decentralized symbolizing we mean that we have to break
down the community from the left to the city. And we would mm hmm We're
back into the wilderness.
Maybe the solo was publication that I would say that we had mistakes.
So, since to me that we are to develop very very intense lively centers
and the size of those centers. It's up there. Mhm. Depends on many factors.
But this centers. Mhm. Need containment Because without containment to
adopt by having los Angeles phillips. Mhm.
Mexico city's phenomenons which are problem really just helping. Yeah, but
containment doesn't mean isolation. It's just the opposite. You know, As I
can say close to containment that he developed intensity. It's too
intensive. Within you can broadcast. You will receive
So by dissolving my physiological structure. I do not obtain integration.
I could I obtain this integration. So it's by containing myself finished.
But can't you identify in the phenomenon of the modern city the urban
effect that you describe that cities are have been growing Tyne. You throw
abnormal mm abnormal rates the living conditions are steadily
deteriorating as a result. And it would seem as though that's a kind of
self destructive mode. Which
is turning back on itself against some of the concepts that you tried to
represent. Well, isn't that because we feel that by any kind of discipline
is infringing on our freedom. Oh, once someone else, we put that up a
slogan is not what we can do it because we have to accept the fact that
anybody can do just about anything. Your ship business. Once that decision
has a democratic society. And then we're in the disaster closely. Well, we
should return to the garage to find out how the biological clicks. And I'm
trying to see because you get transferred that Into the 1st Battle. Can
see if you can make some okay. And evidently one thing it's very clear,
very important in a biological is tremendous.
30 movies? Yeah. Anything existing were submitted
was no fascinating survival when there's something.
So it's not sufficient to set up some very genetic rules and and say, well
, we are intelligent creatures, advice through self interest. We're going
to develop the first.
Well, mhm. It doesn't work that way. We need toproblem